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I'm (a little) disapointed... but all is not lost! lol

Ok first of all, before you read me, i have more than 150 hours on BGEE and i think around 1.5k hours on original BG, BG2 (not counting IWD, planescape, NWN etc...). I LOVE these games ;) so thank you for this kind of project. (are you feeling the "but" comming?... good)

So I am, like a lot of ppl here, an old-school player. I played the original baldur's gate games when they were released and i've been waiting for this Enhanced Edition for some time now.

But.... (lol told you so)

Here's what i think about it after a month:

The scaling of icons and char pictures with screen resolution, and the compatibility on OSX and tablets is the ONLY actual and real work you did on this game...

I mean i still have BG and BG2 with mods on my computer (BGT, tweaks, ...), and really... the community made FREE mods for 14 years and you just compile them and sell the stuff for 15$ (and it was, at most, on a beta stage at the release date...) ???

I must ask: did i pay for the portage to OSX and tablets???? I'm a PC player and excuse me but i feel kinda robbed...
- 3 new NPC ??? There are TONS of FREE new NPC on BG mods forums...
- A new adventure? (This one is really a joke) it's separated from BG... this is a commercial announcement at best, pathetic...

So:
- 0 work on graphics? Well i kinda get it, if you started to redraw some stuff you would eventualy end up having to redraw EVERYTHING (would that be bad? i dont think so... but lets admit it was for the sake of authenticity... that it was a choice and not lazyness...) (you could have AT LEAST do something about the water and spell effects omg....)

- 0 work on interface and ergonomy? (original menues???? rly???? no ESC key, wheel button only works on vendor side of selling interface, not focus-based? ... we passed year 2000 more than 10 years ago you know, ppl have smartphones and are used to OSX or winXP level of interface...)

(This graphic options page for example... .... ....is really a joke!!! And no way to change shortcuts? Rly?... omg²)

- The pathfinding... is .... still as terrible as it was in 1998 which says A LOT about your so called "work" on this game.

- you corrected 400 bugs???? Stop lying plz, the community reported and corrected hundreds of bugs in the last 14 years, and you took their work and barely added to it... Once again this is a commercial announcement (and im getting bored of these half lies).

I mean, no visualisation of AOE spells (like a fireball aoe around the mouse when you're ready to launch it? 30' on the spell description could actually be represented.... for example)

Did you even try to redesign interface? Menues? Spell lists? (could we have access to spell details when in combat interface plz? No, we still need to open spellbook to get informations...)

So rly what's enhanced about this edition ??!?!??!?
Can you stop smoking huge blunts and start working a bit plz? (omg^10)

Dont get me wrong, you did work on this, you did release it, you made ppl talk about it, and offered a chance for younger ppl to discover one the greatest computer RPG ever... and the portage to OSX and tablets is really not a bad idea...

Im not writting this to insult you, im not asking for my monet back, but i have to be kinda agressiv because, well, i feel a bit insulted and robbed (sorry but that's the truth)...

I really hope you will read this kind of post im sure im far from the only one who feels like that... but i also believe (hope?) that you guys are more than just a bunch of old hippies making easy money with a classic game... So please please please show us you're not...

We all see the release of independant, low cost or free, new games (with some ACTUAL work having been done on graphics, story, interface.... work you didnt do on this game)... so your "work" on BGEE (for a PC user who has the original games standpoint) looks like a joke/scam compared to what's on the market...

So go go go! continue to patch! and do something about interface!! I'd hate it if next year when i want to play BG i end up installing original BG BG2 and BGT+widesreen FREE mods... It would mean you really did fool us...

PS: sorry for my bad english :p

PPS: huge thanks to the infinity engine modding community!!

Sejer666KorlamaqVoidSorcererExxoMoiraineIkonNavros
«13

Comments

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,778
    I thought we were done with these.

    The comment "I got this for free, why am I paying for it again" is a really arrogant argument as what you have written, it seems like you know nothing of what it takes to script, test and distribute software.

    And then here is a question, when was the last time you downloaded a mod for BG from the modding community? And another question, did you ever send any support to any of the modding community for their work that you are enjoying? IE Donated to their paypal.

    Free games from independent developers are like a resume. They are showcasing their work so that they can be hired to do what they enjoy doing. They do not have deadlines to adhere to, nor contract obligations or limitations set on them.

    I am sorry you feel robbed, but it is not as if you went out and purchased a kinnect and all the games for it, that my friend is robbery.

    QuartzCleaveForse
  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13



    Ignorance is bliss...

    plz explain? i must be too much ignorant, or my english is just that bad, i dont get it...

    I meant that this whole project sometimes makes me think of some of these guys who were 20 years old in the last 80's/ early 90's (e.g. what i call old hippies)
    And i actually know these "old school develloppers" and excuse me but even if i love them and their games, a lot of them were/are not marijuana virgins... sorry to break it to you but thats the actual simple reality of things :p ... lol

    but ... man it was just a joke and some provocation, and im entilted to it because of what you called valid points in my post ^^
    they can release an half finished-15$-revamped game, so i can joke about their work and wonder at why... it is a bit irreverant, but rly just a joke...

    I mean no insult i just want to be annoying so they react ^^ sorry if this irks people who were not even the target of this pun...

  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    edited January 2013
    deltago said:

    I thought we were done with these.

    The comment "I got this for free, why am I paying for it again" is a really arrogant argument as what you have written, it seems like you know nothing of what it takes to script, test and distribute software.

    And then here is a question, when was the last time you downloaded a mod for BG from the modding community? And another question, did you ever send any support to any of the modding community for their work that you are enjoying? IE Donated to their paypal.

    Free games from independent developers are like a resume. They are showcasing their work so that they can be hired to do what they enjoy doing. They do not have deadlines to adhere to, nor contract obligations or limitations set on them.

    I am sorry you feel robbed, but it is not as if you went out and purchased a kinnect and all the games for it, that my friend is robbery.

    How old are you? im 33, born in '79, so was like 18 or 19 when BG was released, and i payed around 55$ for BG (at the time it was 350 french francs), 20 for TotSC 50 for BG2 and i was given ToB as a present... I really didnt get nothing for free... i dont know where you got that part???!?

    I'm actualy a web based game devellopper and quality tester, so yeah i know what it takes to script, test and distribute (and even localization issues)... You obviously dont...

    Difficulty is NOT an excuse. NOT when you kickstart a project like that, NOT when you have 0 dialogue/story to write, NOT when half (at least) your work has been done by fans already...

    And FYI the last time i downloaded a mod was like yesterday when i installed BG2 + tweaks + widescreen to import my BGEE party... And i was surprised at how this community is still pretty much alive!

    And you hate this kind of posts? well i hate paragons of virtues who jump to defend people they dont even know with half baked arguments... you're really not helping them lol!
    Plus i'd really like to know what Overhaul games ppl think of this... I'd hope for a sign... No one can tell me the interface in this game is bullet-proof...

  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    Sylonce : +++ !!!
    thanks for an honest and good common-sensed answer ^^
    its true about zoom, i had forgotten this ^^

    im not bitter either, im not even angry, because in the end, baldurs gate is such an awesome game... im just a little disapointed, but as i said i also hope for patches! my message is not a letter of insult, id like this to go somewhere see? ;) otherwise i wouldnt take the time and energy to write here :)

    15$ is not expansive, and as i said overhaul made younger ppl discover that game, this is priceless imo... I really hope they will work on some of the issues i pointed out thats all

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,778
    The free stuff I mentioned, was not the game, but the scripting done by the bg community. You got all that work for free and you accepted it as free and ignoring all the small issues that might be present in the coding. You are also failing to realize that all this free coding, was worked on over a long stretch of time with no set deadlines or regulations to the work. And you still haven't answered my question if you supported the developers of these mods or not.

    And yes, I hate these kinds of posts for one reason: if you do a search of the forums (which I know you haven't) you would of found this topic beaten to death already, with links to where overhaul stated what can and can't be done, what they have fixed, are still needing to fix and other known issues from getting a 14 year old game to run on modern software. You would of found justification for charging $20 (Think of a modern game and how much they charge for an added one added character to the game or a bonus level). You would of also found links stating that yes, a modded BG is better than BGEE NOW, but once the mod community gets their hands on the EE version, the sky is the limit. I especially dislike a poster calling out the developer to respond to their one post even though, a post like it was officially responded to months ago.

    And they did have dialog and story to write. 3 new characters and blackpits remember? They also were making this game compatible to mobile devices (and once again, if you do a little research) which was their main priority as they wanted to know if there was a market for this caliber of a game on those platforms.

    Now those tweaks and widescreen, when were they released? I believe atleast 8 years ago. This project is revitalizing the community that you are praising and giving them a cleaner, more polished product to work off of. Give them a year, and you'll see that the $20 that you spent will be a worthy investment unlike the kinnect.

    elminsterJason_SilverainGodKaiserHell
  • LifatLifat Member Posts: 353
    I hate installing mods because for me it is a big hassle. Don't get me wrong. The modding community are heroes who've been adding FREE stuff to a superb game.

    If I'm being honest I bought the game because of the comfort of skipping some mods, the three new NPC's, the black pitts and the continued support (and the possibility of bg2:ee and bg3). I wasn't really disappointed by the new release but the joy I did/do feel when playing bg:ee was/is mostly because of the original game.

    That said I actually see where the OP is coming from. The changes/improvements aren't that many so far.

    Anton
  • DerDuKeDerDuKe Member Posts: 88
    edited January 2013
    I partially understand your point of view, kartonio.

    But my opinion on this issue:
    I only played BG2 when I was a child and did not finish it for some reason I can not remember right now. You can imagine how excited I was when I first read about the BG:EE announcement, now being able to get immersed into the world of BG again! Although I can understand that some of you old BG veterans expected more of it, I am totally happy to play a working version on my Windows7 PC without the need of installing all the mods (which was described as being difficult by a good amount of users). Additionally to my working BG:EE game I get a community of oldschool RPGs loving people which all gather in this particular forum and exchange their BG playing experiences. On the top of that I invest 20 bucks into the creation of a BG2 enhanced edition and show the developers my gratitude for bringing back good old memories and lots of fun with an almost forgotten game. And furthermore - I think we all agree on that - it has been shown there is still a huge demand for this genre (yeah right, not everyone wants to play these monotonous COD levels over and over again...). So is BG:EE worth the money and will I buy BG2:EE? Hell yeah! (luckily there's still enough time before the BG2:EE release to play through BG:EE over and over again...) Btw Beamdog shows great support with their patches!

    Post edited by DerDuKe on
    KidCarnivalAristillius
  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    edited January 2013
    DELTAGO :

    1
    deltago said:

    You are also failing to realize that all this free coding, was worked on over a long stretch of time with no set deadlines or regulations to the work. And you still haven't answered my question if you supported the developers of these mods or not.

    2
    deltago said:

    needing to fix and other known issues from getting a 14 year old game to run on modern software. You would of found justification for charging $20 (Think of a modern game and how much they charge for an added one added character to the game or a bonus level). You would of also found links stating that yes, a modded BG is better than BGEE NOW, but once the mod community gets their hands on the EE version, the sky is the limit. I especially dislike a poster calling out the developer to respond to their one post even though, a post like it was officially responded to months ago.

    3
    deltago said:

    They also were making this game compatible to mobile devices (and once again, if you do a little research) which was their main priority as they wanted to know if there was a market for this caliber of a game on those platforms.

    Ok,

    1.a : yes but the coding for these free mods was not made by professionnals who pre-sold their game and who got thousands of dollars from kickstarter, there is no possible comparison so i dont see you point...
    1.b : No i didnt support these developpers - and? whats your point about this mr know it all? This content was given freely and most of them dont even have a paypal donation on their page, they are not about making money, most of it is fan work... again i dont see you point.

    2 : The original BG and BG2 work perfectly on modern software thx to directx and win32 i guess (i have win7 and no problem with original games), the only issue really being the resolution.
    - And sorry but if i make this post 6 weeks after release its really on design, i like to have time before making critisism because contrary to what you seem to assume im not hot headed ^^


    3 :So in the end you give water to my mill here - i paid for OSX and tablet users as i said in my post... well i dont really like it sorry. I hoped for more i guess...
    - So perhaps i should do some research on forums as you said, im sorry i wanted to express my feelings on a dedicated forum and you disliked it :( . But perhaps you should also read more closely before countering a thread by adding to its arguments lol...

    anyway i dont want to fight here again im sorry if you didnt like my thread but im entitled to express an opinion i hope... (and i purposely waited to express it, i finished the game two times before posting because i dont like hot headed threads with no retrospect)

    DERDUKE, LIFAT :

    Yeah, i kinda see what you two mean, and i told so in my thread ;) (about giving youger ppl the possibility to play BG series)
    And i bought BGEE and will probably buy BG2EE, but it doesnt mean i find their work flawless, and for the sake of our gaming exprerience i point out the things that could have been better imo.
    But you make a valid point here ;)

    DerDuKe
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    I've said this before but I'll say it again. I've no doubt the devs have done $20 worth of work and I don't think they're moneygrabbers at all, but what we have is nowhere near $20 worth of product.

    VoidSorcererIkonNavros
  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    ryuken87: Yeah very true! but again im not whinning about money, as derduke said im happy to promote BG series in 2012... very happy about it! (in fact my little brother will be able to play it and this is worth gold to me ;))) ) I just find the interface really really ... outdated and it feels like little work has been done about it, and when you want to enhance a '98 game, beside resolution (done!) and graphics (no change, but for the sake of autheticity it can be understood), interface is the obvious target...

    I sincerely hope they will change it, a very good point on their part is they seem to release regular patches... so i hope if they hear a lot of demands and constructive critisism that they will adress this issue. (and before BG2EE release plz!)

  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    dont you guys wish to see a (league of legends-like) shadow of the fireball/silence/... AOE around the mouse before lanching it? i mean i really thought they would work on this kind of enhancements...

    Djimmy
  • Sese79Sese79 Member Posts: 478
    edited January 2013
    I agree with you, @kartonio. Just look what is announced and still advertised on the main page of this game (http://baldursgate.com/enhancements.en.html) and what was accomplished from this in real:
    - New characters. Yeah, the new characters are placed in your way that you just can't avoid them despite of they are very buggy. (Just look in the bugs section for Neera, Dorn, etc.)
    - New voices / sounds: Yeah, but there are many old ones that just don't play...
    - Native support for high-resolution, etc: the new GUI has too much unused space, the chat window is too high, all the spell icons are enlarged wrongly, they are blurry and half of the graphic is missing. The texts for stacked items and spells are too small, despite of the enlarged space. The opening phrase is just wider as the screen, you can't see third of the phrase. You can find many graphic errors at the bugs section.
    - Over 400 improvements... Yeah, and much more new bugs. Before the launch there was some 8 pages of errors, now how many pages are there? And this errors are mostly new ones. You should feel yourself lucky if you don't encountered the monster spawn bugs, that was the most annoying of them. Noe the most annoying bug is that the characters are not doing what you expect from them. (Despite of bow or sling or spells they run close to the enemies, etc.)
    - Improved multiplayer, across platforms, etc.: Just look at the multiplayer bugs section. The multiplayer experience is a pain to play. (Crashes every time you should see the nightfall / sunset movies, texts appear wrongly, you have to scroll to the beginning, etc.) I have many posts about this, check them. (I don't think the across platform thing is solved, but I don't know this for sure, not tried just saw the posts here.)
    - Baldur's Gate 2 features: Yeah, they implemented the familiars and kits from BG2 creating serious balance and gameplay experience problems.
    - New cinematics: I copy-paste this from the homepage: "All of the Baldur's Gate cinematics have been replaced with beautifully hand painted animated cinematics, directed by Nat Jones." Well, is it truth?
    And the missing movies cause crashes in multiplayer. And the new movies are terrible, the humor and the horror is gone, you can watch cold and static animations instead totally lacking of any inspiration.
    So I understand your feelings, in my country this corporation have had to pay much money for advertising something and then sell something different to us.
    I just hope in time this all will be corrected. Thanks for reading this, I am not a native English speaker, sorry for my failures.

    The_New_RomanceMoiraineIkonNavros
  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    edited January 2013
    Aosaw: make it an option? ;)

    Informations about spells accessible from the bottom quickbar would be nice too.

    actual duration of spells (calculated from caster level) and exprimed in rounds for example could be written in another color in the spell description for accessibility. Like when i buff i quickly want to know which spell will last longer so i can cast it first... and i'm never sure if a round is 10s and you got 6 rounds/turn (1min) or i a round is 6s and you got 10 rounds a turn... it makes buff order a little tricky sometimes. (but thats just an example, same thing could be done with dmg)

    the duration left on benevolent spells could be accessible by rollover on the icon

    i guess its true interface is a subjective matter. but making these as options resolves the issue.

    and key assignments would also be nice.

    The essence of baldurs gate is imo: the background of the forgotten realms (thx mr Gigax), the amazing quality of AD&D spellbook (whose variety and details is awesome), the story/quests and characters, the difficulty which creates rewarding situations, The barters and group management... and of course the strategical fights. Anyway, none of this is really subject to the engine (only the strategical aspect dictates the view style). Keeping the style of original BG is good (colors, icons character sheet...), copying to the letter its interface is a mistake imho.

    Post edited by kartonio on
    Anton
  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    Sese79:

    -the new characters are good imo, and i didnt have bugs with them (im lucky it seems) the only downside is that they dont feel like original NPCs, too much voiced text perhaps? but its minor.

    -about voices i didnt have issues either...

    -about GUI and above all icons quality, i agree.

    -im ready to accept the fact that the kind of complex scripting this game requires is bound to have bugs and can never really be tested as fully as the playing community would require (if you've played pnp rpg, you know players are always full of surprises and unpredictable decisions, well its about the same on a computer rpg) so, not a major issue imo.

    -I agree that the pathfinding is terrible. And i agree these ranged idiot NPCs coming to melee when they change target is truly a pain in the ***

    -Same, the integrated BG2 features im not gonna be critic about because i played with BGT which exported BG1 game content on BG2 engine and therefore I already played BG1 with BG2 rules. And I dont think it is that much game breaking.

    -the cinematics are not that bad imo. I prefer drawing like cinematics like these over the (hopefully few!) CG cinematics they did back for BG2... And i hope they will keep this kind of work for BG2EE. Investing thousands of dollars on a CG division to make 3D cinematics would be a shame... I'd rather have them gather a thinktank to redo the interface...

    As for multiplayer i never tested it so i cant argue...



    My point really is about interface and ergonomy (shortcuts icons and stuff like that), and pathfinding (because it was already a major issue in the '98 game... they really should have fixed this). I also find that qualifying "the pit" as a new adventure is "borderline"...

  • ljboljbo Member Posts: 177
    As for pathfinding, if you dig a bit on these forums, you will find that they tried but gave up because their fixes ended up breaking too many scripted encounters, which I would guess were designed to work around the bad pathfinding in the first place!

  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    ljbo yeah i saw that, but sorry, it's not a valid excuse imo...

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    ljbo said:

    As for pathfinding, if you dig a bit on these forums, you will find that they tried but gave up because their fixes ended up breaking too many scripted encounters, which I would guess were designed to work around the bad pathfinding in the first place!

    LOL. Yup, yup. Absolutely were.

    On a more serious note, while I get that the OP was merely venting, i think that a huge portion of the problem comes from unrealistic expectations on the part of the OP.

    The community made mods may be free to use, but they are not free to snatch up and resell by Overhaul. And so they would have either had to contract with the modders (unlikely and expensive if even possible) for a piece of the pie, or recreate the fixes/additions.

    As far as propaganda, if they said that they fixed 400 bugs, I have no doubt that they did. not that marketing can't sometimes lie. Just that, sans the community made mods, I bet there was a lot of cleanup to be done prior to launch. And as far as new content is concerned, they were very upfront about what new NPCs and quests were being added. personally, after doing the research, I don't feel that there was any miss-representation on either front.

    At the end of the day, yes. We consumers are paying by and large for two things. IOS compatibility and exposure of the title to new consumers. Understand that this was a test on the part of Overhaul games. They weren't likely to sink millions of dollars into it until they were sure that they were going to get a return on investment. So we got what we got.

    And they weren't likely to update anything (Like pathing) that might have broader ramifications and might turn into a much bigger glitch later. Same goes with repainting etc...

    CorianderatcDave
  • moopymoopy Member Posts: 938
    edited January 2013
    20 dollars to have a downloadable from anywhere I happen to be at that time, already modded with widescreen, bg2 engine, fix pack, etc...

    Is completely worth it to me. I don't even care if the repackaged other peoples work they had put out for free and beat them to death to take it from them. (This was sarcasm. I didn't say any of that happened. Lol.)

    I didn't realize how much I was enjoying the reworked inventory screen that shows damage or THAC0 or whatever it is that is new. I just know I missed it when I loaded up BG2 for 5 minutes to test a few things.

    While I'd like to see other things, the only thing I'm really sad about is no Unfinished Business. I'll live over that.

    New NPCs are just icing on the cake.

    SirK8Jason_SilverainAnton
  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    kartonio said:

    dont you guys wish to see a (league of legends-like) shadow of the fireball/silence/... AOE around the mouse before lanching it?

    No, I don't.

    ScooterSirK8Wikkid_SuhnElectricMonk
  • moopymoopy Member Posts: 938
    After you've launched enough fireballs you basically have a feel for exactly where it will stop so you can throw one at just the right distance to have it stop before hitting your mage.

    SirK8SCARY_WIZARDElectricMonkGodKaiserHell
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    moopy said:

    I don't even care if the repackaged other peoples work they had put out for free and beat them to death to take it from them. (This was sarcasm. I didn't say any of that happened. Lol.)

    I "Think" it is more a concern that (a) Hasboro wouldn't allow them to simply pick up the mods for copy right infringement purposes and (b) "If" one of the modders suddenly came out of the woodwork (not saying they WOULD, but they COULD), there is the potential for a lawsuit and damages, yada, yada, yada far in excess of the cost simply to recreate the content (not to mention the PR hit). Then it comes down to how much they were willing to invest initially on the venture. If the initial cost was more than they wanted to spend, it simply wouldn't get done.

  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    Yeah but they are making BG2EE right now and are talking about making a 3rd... it is a long term project. So i think the pathfinding issue is/will be really annoying and would have called for more efforts from the start (even redoing all encounters for example). Since the re-did the engine, why not adress its main flaws from the start?!?

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I don't disagree with you. But again, consider that BG:EE was more of a proof of concept than anything else. I would bet that the initial scope was to get the enhanced edition out the door with a minimum of excess work, of which the path finding engine and all of the subsequent encounters, would definitely be seen as excessive. This is all supposition on my part, but from a relatively sound premise.

    I'd think that if they made enough of a profit off of BG:EE, that they might feel more comfortable 'Fixing' these types of larger issues in BG2:EE. Again, just a guess. But we can always hope. Then again, Hasbro might want all of the profits and none of the headaches and say "It is worked for 15 years, so no need to fix it." (equally as possible in my mind).

  • moopymoopy Member Posts: 938
    If pathfinding messed up prescripted encounters. They would have to go touch every single hardcoded scripted encounter. That would be a ridiculous feat, and take way too much time.

    Better that if they get to BG3 they then modify the BG2 engine to use for BG3 where they will be having to create all scripted encounters from scratch anyway.

  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    Erg said:

    kartonio said:

    dont you guys wish to see a (league of legends-like) shadow of the fireball/silence/... AOE around the mouse before lanching it?

    No, I don't.
    Well i do, welcome to difference. Thats why options exist in any software, to satisfy plurality...

    Some of the choices in BG were consequences of technical limitations, i dont think sticking stricktly to the original is a must. Or else its just a BG emulator for win7...
    Evolution is change, a remake of a game is not just an emulation. You have new technology, research and discoveries have been made in terms of ergonomy and gameplay. As i said earlier the soul of BG is not its engine... Or else just buy the game on GoG...
    I was hoping for the same story of course, the same NPCs and places but i wouldn't have screamed betrayal if they had redone all the graphics for example... Even a 3D engine would not have been bad if it showed the same isometric-like view (but could allow for rotation)
    I wanted the same strategical fights and free aerial point of vue, and of course the AD&D rules and spells, but had they remake the IA (which could have profoundly changed the course and winning strategies/group of the game) i would not have been against it.

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