Need help understanding backstab

Sheikia

So for backstabbing, I understand that you have to be hiding in the shadows behind the enemy and attack them. Nothing seems to happen for me when I try that though. She (Imoen) just comes out of the shadows and attacks normally. I tried adding the script for the thief aggressive so she should supposedly be backstabbing people automatically, I have never seen it happen. She just keeps randomly coming in and out of the shadows.

Madhax

Not sure how new you are to the game, but is it possible that Imoen is simply missing? Turn on attack-rolls and see. Imoen has terrible melee stats and is definitely designed primarily as an archer or a dual-class mage, so trying to backstab with her without first tricking her out with a strength potion or similar buffs won't do much.

Keep in mind that melee accuracy is determined by strength, not dexterity. This isn't to say that you necessarily need your backstabber to be extremely strong, but even with the +4 to hit bonus from attacking from shadows, it's nowhere near a safe bet for a weakling like Imoen to connect.

ZanathKariashi

Don't use scripts...they don't work worth a crap...the AI enemy backstabbers get to bend the rules and facestab you since Bioware gave up trying to make an AI script to do it properly.


unless she misses or critical misses (if you have hit rolls turned on, that should show whether she made an attempt or not), manually ordering them to attack from the shadows while in position should always result in a backstab. Stoneskin or mirrior images can block or have a chance to block the hits though.

I haven't been having any issues with backstabs, but I don't use the AI at all and order everything manually.

Oxford_Guy

The way I do it, move your thief (still hidden) behind and right next to the enemy you want to backstab, then make the attack. It's best to do this either before they've spotted the rest of your party (so that they're stationary) or already in melee with another party member, otherwise they can move before your backstab connects. Also, it helps to use weapons with a low speed - short swords, daggers, wakazashis, ninja-tos etc., though magic enchancements also reduce speed i.e. a +2 long sword gets a -2 reduction to speed. Also you can only backstab with weapons usable by thieves (sounds obvious, but a fighter/thief can't backstab with a two-handed sword, for example.

karnor00

In order to backstab you need to
(a) be hidden/invisible
(b) be behind your opponent
(c) be a thief (or a couple of kits which get backstab ability)
(d) be using a weapon usable by a single class thief

I think you need to tell the character to attack manually to get a backstab - if they simply stand behind the enemy and autoattack them then I think you just get a normal attack. Finally there are some enemies which are simply immune to backstab (many of the tougher enemies can't be backstabbed).

Kaltzor

The moment you tell to attack, the character starts leaving the hide in shadows mode, I think it lasts a turn after it still, but once it ends the character becomes visible. Maybe you're trying from too far away and by the time you reach the enemy the character is already out of shadows?

valky

I'd recommend a script that includes rules, that ignore any action besides walking if:
- inv or imp invisble
- stealth

[currently using a similar script for my cleric if he turns undead - cause it's annoying as hell, that every stupid action or enemies attacking him breaks turn undead]

Sadly, as already mentioned, they do not exist in such a plain and simple form. Most scripts that you can download have a shit..erm bunchload of conditions in them, so they are partially effective (or do a lot of stuff automatically)

Else, move close & perform the attack, that'd give you enough time for a backstab while still in stealth.

Could re-write mine, if yer want, need to replace only one condition and I use that script for any of my characters. It just makes sure that everybody is attacking or counter-attacks. Else for ranged user if further than 30' (the line of sight thingie) they try to catch up to the leader and attack anything in sight.

Only if not invis, imp invis or turn undead is active, then they do nothing :>
It was only written to counter my laziness or when playing drunken...*d00h*

TJ_Hooker

valky said:

I'd recommend a script that includes rules, that ignore any action besides walking if:
- inv or imp invisble
- stealth

[currently using a similar script for my cleric if he turns undead - cause it's annoying as hell, that every stupid action or enemies attacking him breaks turn undead]

Sadly, as already mentioned, they do not exist in such a plain and simple form. Most scripts that you can download have a shit..erm bunchload of conditions in them, so they are partially effective (or do a lot of stuff automatically)

Else, move close & perform the attack, that'd give you enough time for a backstab while still in stealth.

Could re-write mine, if yer want, need to replace only one condition and I use that script for any of my characters. It just makes sure that everybody is attacking or counter-attacks. Else for ranged user if further than 30' (the line of sight thingie) they try to catch up to the leader and attack anything in sight.

Only if not invis, imp invis or turn undead is active, then they do nothing :>
It was only written to counter my laziness or when playing drunken...*d00h*

The "Ease of Use AI" component of Sword Coast Strategems is a script that is almost exactly what you're describing here. It does have a couple of extra options (drink potions and cast buffs I believe) but both can be toggled off ingame. I used it all the time before BG:EE, with the options toggled off, so that it functioned purely as an attack script (but a bit smarter than the basic attack script in how it chooses targets) that wouldn't cancel modal actions (stealth, turn undead, etc). Hopefully it won't be too long before it's updated for BG:EE.

ZanathKariashi

Strength does help a lot, since the game multiplies it, among some other bonuses it's not supposed to (it's actually just supposed to roll your weapon damage (including enhancement, but not extra damage types) x amount of time, then apply the other bonuses, but Baldur's Gate adds some bonuses to every rolls (str and innate like from an assassin or kensai, I know for sure, specialization or other item sources I'm not sure yet.

Say you have a 16 str (+1 damage) level 1 thief (x2 BS) with a plain dagger (1d4). Or an Assassin (+1 hit/damage) over the plain thief.

PNP Thief BS = 2(1d4) +1 = 3-9 BS

PNP Assassin BS = 2(1d4) +1 +1 = 4-10 BS

BG thief BS = 2(1d4+1) = 4-10 BS

BG assassin BS = 2(1d4 +1 +1) = 6-12 BS

Of course as your strength and innate bonus goes higher, the difference JUMPS.

PnP-ish 13/14 Kensai/Thief (no specialization) with 19 str BS = 5(1d4) +7 +4 = 16-31 BS

BG 13/14 Kensai/Thief (No specialization) with 19 str BS = 5(1d4+7+4) = 60 -75 BS

moopy

@ZanathKariashi

If you have grand mastery does that damage get added on after the multiplier or before?

Or a better question would be is everything added and then multiplied by the backstab modifier?

And if so, even the extra damage on the staff of striking?

ZanathKariashi

That's the part I'm not sure of yet. The only bonuses I know for sure are multipled are weapon damage, basic enhancement bonus, and innate damage mods from Assassin and kensai. Extra stuff like the 1d4 piercing on the staff of the ram +6 (1d6+12, +1d4 piercing) or extra elemental damage is never multiplied.

I imagine it might be pretty easy to check using a Kensai, since their Kai eliminates the random portion entirely. And then just see how much damage is being added after the known multipliers. I don't think damage from things like the Bracers of extraordinary specialization are multiplied, but weapon specialization might be.

I'll check in a bit and see.


Actually the damage calculations in EE are wrong period. I used a 15 str lvl 2 plain fighter (no damage bonus), with specialization in daggers (+2 damage) and a non-magical generic dagger (1d4), dualed to a lvl 3 thief, and his regular melee is hitting for 8-12 damage (the damage calculation shown in the inventory is correct for what it's supposed to be, 3-6)...when he should only be dealing 3-6 COUNTING specialization. His Backstab were similarly WAY off base.

Yeah, EE has something wrong with it's damage...I took a lvl 1 thief with 10 str and merely proficient in daggers and he's consistently hitting 6+ on a 1d4 with no damage bonuses.


OK..it turns out ALL 3 games' damage calculations are off. Tested BG1 and BG2 and they also have a hidden damage bonus. Beyond what should be there.

Edwin

Does anyone know if Atweaks Simple Thief Script is working yet or not?

Oxford_Guy

ZanathKariashi said:

That's the part I'm not sure of yet. The only bonuses I know for sure are multipled are weapon damage, basic enhancement bonus, and innate damage mods from Assassin and kensai. Extra stuff like the 1d4 piercing on the staff of the ram +6 (1d6+12, +1d4 piercing) or extra elemental damage is never multiplied.

I imagine it might be pretty easy to check using a Kensai, since their Kai eliminates the random portion entirely. And then just see how much damage is being added after the known multipliers. I don't think damage from things like the Bracers of extraordinary specialization are multiplied, but weapon specialization might be.

I'll check in a bit and see.


Actually the damage calculations in EE are wrong period. I used a 15 str lvl 2 plain fighter (no damage bonus), with specialization in daggers (+2 damage) and a non-magical generic dagger (1d4), dualed to a lvl 3 thief, and his regular melee is hitting for 8-12 damage (the damage calculation shown in the inventory is correct for what it's supposed to be, 3-6)...when he should only be dealing 3-6 COUNTING specialization. His Backstab were similarly WAY off base.

Yeah, EE has something wrong with it's damage...I took a lvl 1 thief with 10 str and merely proficient in daggers and he's consistently hitting 6+ on a 1d4 with no damage bonuses.


OK..it turns out ALL 3 games' damage calculations are off. Tested BG1 and BG2 and they also have a hidden damage bonus. Beyond what should be there.

I'm pretty sure the Strength damage bonus isn't *meant* to be multiplied, if it is being multiplied...

ZanathKariashi

Nothing except for the base weapon damage + enhancement is supposed to be multiplied by the PnP rules, but I do for know for sure that Str and any innate bonus is currently and has been multiplied for years in all 3 games.

I'm just trying to figure this extra unlisted damage bonus out now. I've never noticed it before today, yet after some verification, it's present in all 3 games.

valky

TJ_Hooker said:

The "Ease of Use AI" component of Sword Coast Strategems is a script that is almost exactly what you're describing here. It does have a couple of extra options (drink potions and cast buffs I believe) but both can be toggled off ingame. I used it all the time before BG:EE, with the options toggled off, so that it functioned purely as an attack script (but a bit smarter than the basic attack script in how it chooses targets) that wouldn't cancel modal actions (stealth, turn undead, etc). Hopefully it won't be too long before it's updated for BG:EE.

Partially, I do use only 2 major condition blocks for attacking & defending and 2 lesser conditions for ranged attacker moving & turn undead. "Ease Of Use AI" is more like 30times bigger and has some automated stuff in it, which I don't really like. re-used the targeting function from eSeries, so it can be done within one condition instead of 4 or 5 like ease o use...anyway am fine with mine and it does exactly what it's supposed to for me. Everything else gets clicked manually.

mlnevese

If you want a script that'll correctly backstab, download BPSeries by Horredtheplague. It's quite configurable.

http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/1025-bp-series-party-ai-scripts-for-bgee-and-bg2tobbgt/