Joinable NPC levels - when are they set?

Wanderon

Are joinable NPC levels set the first time you talk to them or the first time you enter the area they are in?

If it's the area how is the area calculated? When you enter the main map they are found in?

JuliusBorisov

The first time you enter the area they are in.

Wanderon

Is that the way it has always been (for BG1) or did that change with the BG2 engine?

Erg

Wanderon said:

Is that the way it has always been (for BG1) or did that change with the BG2 engine?

Always been.

The actual level of the PC determines the level of the NPC, not the XP. For instance, if you don't click the button to level up despite having enough XP to do it, you can get NPCs at a lower level.

Edit: That's not true for new NPCs: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/241494/#Comment_241494

bersbach

Thanks for the info. Follow-up question - what happens to the NPC level if you grab them early, boot them, then return later to collect them? For example, if I get Ajantis early, then ditch him for Minsc, play through several levels, then get Ajantis again later, will he have leveled up in the interim? Or would he still be the same level as when I booted him?

KidCarnival

After you talked to them, they stay at that level. So if you want to save them up for later, do not talk to them.

Wanderon

KidCarnival said:

After you talked to them, they stay at that level. So if you want to save them up for later, do not talk to them.

I was thinking it was as simple as this also but apparently you cannot even enter the map location they are found in without setting their level based on your level at that time.

Not sure what the parameters of the "area" are exactly tho - for Jahs and Kahlid is it entering the FAI map or only upon entering the Inn itself?

Safana is not in a building so I assume when you enter the lighthouse map at all you set her level?

Dyna is not "in" a building actually so I assume the same applies here - as soon as you enter the gnoll fort map it's set?

KidCarnival

Nope. If your theory was correct, Minsc, Rasaad and Edwin would all be triggered by entering the Nashkell map. I usually don't talk to Rasaad and Minsc and only take Edwin along. When I return later and take Rasaad and/or Minsc, they did level.
You'd have the same situation on other maps - Beregost has Kagain, Garrick and Neera and I usually only take Kagain and return later to steal Neera's gem bag. Since I didn't talk to her before, she keeps adjusting the level, too.
Maybe it's different on maps that have only one NPC, I don't know. I only took Branwen at two very different points in the game and it's possible she doesn't count as "alive" as a statue. But she was always close to my own level; either 2 or 4.

Kilivitz

KidCarnival said:

After you talked to them, they stay at that level. So if you want to save them up for later, do not talk to them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought their level was only set if they joined your party.

If you talked to them but didn't get them to join, next time you return to the area their .CRE file will be summoned according again according to the current average level of the party.

KidCarnival

From what I see, it is set upon interaction. If you have them join, they are a bit below you or the same level; then level with you as you gain XP. If you reject them, they stay at the XP they had when you talked to them. Once the Vorlon touched them, they can't evolve on their own anymore. They need to be in the party to gain more levels/XP.

Wanderon

Be nice to get confirmation on which is correct - it does make more sense that the level is set when you speak to them rather than just entering the area they are in for all the reasons KidCarnival mentions -

I tried google but didn't come up with anything.

Ignatius

I also always thought it was based on when you let them join first your party. I am 100% sure this is how it worked in recent playthroughs for Neera and in general, Beregost/Nashkel based NPC's.

Wanderon

Ignatius said:

I also always thought it was based on when you let them join first your party. I am 100% sure this is how it worked in recent playthroughs for Neera and in general, Beregost/Nashkel based NPC's.

Are you saying you have declined her at first - then picked her up later at FAI and she was a higher level?

Or that you avoided her encounter until later and she was a higher level? (She is level one if you get her when the PC is still level 1)

Come to think of it I know Garrick and the Silke encounter in general has levels and also rewards set based on your level when you talk to him and not on your level when you first enter the area. (At low levels the reward is 300 but for higher levels Silke offers to pay more than the original offer)

Ignatius

No the recent playthrough I have in mind is visiting Beregost while at lvl.1, avoiding Neera for a while, then engaging conversation later in the game (I was lvl.4 or lvl.5) and allowing her to join. She was also ~lvl.4 or lvl.5, definitely not lvl.1.

Erg

Wanderon said:

Be nice to get confirmation on which is correct - it does make more sense that the level is set when you speak to them rather than just entering the area they are in for all the reasons KidCarnival mentions -

I tried google but didn't come up with anything.

The level is set when you enter the area and not when you talk with them.

You can test this as follow (I did it):

suppose you have a level 3 PC with enough XP to level up to 4. If you

1) refrain from levelling up and move to the area where Coran his for the first time and speak to him, Coran will be level 3/3

2) refrain from levelling up, move to the area where Coran his for the first time, then level up to 4 and speak to him, Coran will still be level 3/3

3) level up to 4, then move to the area where Coran his for the first time and speak to him, Coran will be level 5/5

Some people have reported that if you leave the area where the NPC is and come back after a very long time, the NPC will be upgraded to reflect your new level. However I never observed this myself, and I have no idea which are the conditions for that to happen.

Edit: @Ignatius reported that too for Neera, while I was writing my post.

Wanderon

Ignatius said:

No the recent playthrough I have in mind is visiting Beregost while at lvl.1, avoiding Neera for a while, then engaging conversation later in the game (I was lvl.4 or lvl.5) and allowing her to join. She was also ~lvl.4 or lvl.5, definitely not lvl.1.

Well thats the way I always thought it worked - perhaps it's the folks claiming it's set when you enter the area that are mistaken.

Erg

Wanderon said:

perhaps it's the folks claiming it's set when you enter the area that are mistaken.

@Wanderon, please read my post just above yours. I've verified that the level is set when you enter the area and not when you talk with the NPC, but it is possible that given the right conditions it may reset when you reenter the area a second time. The key word being (re)enter the area.

However, I don't know under which conditions the levels reset.

Wanderon

Erg said:

Wanderon said:

Be nice to get confirmation on which is correct - it does make more sense that the level is set when you speak to them rather than just entering the area they are in for all the reasons KidCarnival mentions -

I tried google but didn't come up with anything.

The level is set when you enter the area and not when you talk with them.

You can test this as follow (I did it):

suppose you have a level 3 PC with enough XP to level up to 4. If you

1) refrain from levelling up and move to the area where Coran his for the first time and speak to him, Coran will be level 3/3

2) refrain from levelling up, move to the area where Coran his for the first time, then level up to 4 and speak to him, Coran will still be level 3/3

3) level up to 4, then move to the area where Coran his for the first time and speak to him, Coran will be level 5/5

Some people have reported that if you leave the area where the NPC is and come back after a very long time, the NPC will be upgraded to reflect your new level. However I never observed this myself, and I have no idea which are the conditions for that to happen.

Edit: @Ignatius reported that too for Neera, while I was writing my post.

Note: I had not updated the page when I last posted so I didn't see this until afterwards.

And when you say "move to the area where Coran is" what exactly do you mean? Enter the Cloakwood 1 map? Or come within view of him?

Have you tested this with other NPCs?

Is this with BG:EE?

Ignatius

Wanderon said:

Well thats the way I always thought it worked - perhaps it's the folks claiming it's set when you enter the area that are mistaken.

Erg has tested his theory for Coran, so maybe things are a little more complex. I'll try something in my current playthrough: I did not let Imoen talk/join upon leaving Candlekeep. I will try to find her and have her join, and we will see whether she is lvl.1 or not. I can test the same with Kivan (I visited High Hedge when I was lvl.1).

Wanderon

Ignatius said:

Wanderon said:

Well thats the way I always thought it worked - perhaps it's the folks claiming it's set when you enter the area that are mistaken.

Erg has tested his theory for Coran, so maybe things are a little more complex. I'll try something in my current playthrough: I did not let Imoen talk/join upon leaving Candlekeep. I will try to find her and have her join, and we will see whether she is lvl.1 or not. I can test the same with Kivan (I visited High Hedge when I was lvl.1).

Yes I will do the same for Dyna and Safana from Brightbows campaign as I specifically didn't talk to them so they would be available later at higher levels.

also I wonder if someone familiar with the modding tools for BG might not be able to see exactly how this is scripted to occur?

Erg

Wanderon said:

And when you say "move to the area where Coran is" what exactly do you mean? Enter the Cloakwood 1 map? Or come within view of him?

I used the MoveToArea console command to enter the map. You're placed in the top left corner of the map, not too distant from the bridge where Coran is.

Wanderon said:

Have you tested this with other NPCs?

Just Coran so far.

Wanderon said:

Is this with BG:EE?

Yes.

lDanielHolm

It's possible that it is simply resets when you re-enter an area. Assuming Erg levelled up while still on the Cloakwood 1 map, of course. Easiest test for this would be to move to the Cloakwood 1 map as level 3 (Coran should be 3/3), leave it, level up, reenter it and see if Coran is 5/5.

Wanderon

@Erg - I wonder if results are different due to use of console - if triggers etc fire differently than they might in normal play ?

Erg

Wanderon said:

@Erg - I wonder if results are different due to use of console - if triggers etc fire differently than they might in normal play ?

Unlikely.

Erg

lDanielHolm said:

It's possible that it is simply resets when you re-enter an area. Assuming Erg levelled up while still on the Cloakwood 1 map, of course. Easiest test for this would be to move to the Cloakwood 1 map as level 3 (Coran should be 3/3), leave it, level up, reenter it and see if Coran is 5/5.

I will try that later on.

Ignatius

Ok I just tested the following in my current playthrough.

Charname was lvl.1 when he entered both the area east of Candlekeep and High Hedge. He neither recruited, nor talked, to Imoen or Kivan back then.

Charname is now lvl.8 and just went to recruit each one of them. Both are lvl.6 (Imoen has 20,636 xp - Kivan has 36,120 xp).

Things are indeed more complex. NPC's might indeed automatically level-up upon charname re-entering the area, the variable being charname's lvl upon re-entering.

Wanderon

I checked with Dyna and Safana in Brightbows playthrough but results were inconclusive - both were level 4 - Brightbow is currently 5 but I'm unsure what level she was when she originally entered those areas and I don't have save games from then becuase I am playing no reload and typically overwrite my final save - she might have been level 3 or could have been 4 and each NPC has only a few "versions" some 3 some 4 I believe - not one for every level.

Ignatius results do seem to indicate that if it's entering the area that sets the level that re-entering later seems to re-set it.

Ignatius

Wanderon said:

Ignatius results do seem to indicate that if it's entering the area that sets the level that re-entering later seems to re-set it.

Well that's only a hypothesis. What my testing indicates is that, at least for several NPC's, they do not actually remain locked at the level they were when you first entered the area (without recruiting them) where they are located.

Wanderon

It also doesn't confirm whether speaking to them will lock the level either (if you decline to have them join and they remain available to have them join later) but I suspect it does.

Erg

Wanderon said:

It also doesn't confirm whether speaking to them will lock the level either (if you decline to have them join and they remain available to have them join later) but I suspect it does.

Yep, it is possible that the level may never reset on reentering the area, if they joined at least once. I will try and test that too.

Ignatius

Erg said:

Yep, it is possible that the level may never reset on reentering the area, if they joined at least once. I will try and test that too.

That is most certainly the case. I routinely hire NPC's, then immediately park them. I re-recruit them much later in the game and they remained at the same level as when I first let them join. I do this sometimes in order to properly manage their proficiency/skills progression.