[Fighter Kit] Duelist

Boaster

I'm dumping the Gladiator kit, because it's just too narrow a title/name for some people.

DUELIST: Ever ready to engage in a battle for honor or supremacy, a duelist is deadly foe. As a trade, and as a living, the duelist seeks to dominate opponents in every manner of combat whether mentally by humiliation or physically by outright overpowering opponents. Duelists are both mental and physical masters of armed melee combat.

Advantages:
[-] Bonus +3 melee attack damage.

[-] Every 5th Level (1/5/10/15...), the Duelist gains an additional +1 AC.

[-] May cast ability "Boastful Challenge" at one cast per 4 levels (1/4/8/12...). Nearby opponents (30' radius) suffer -1 AC, -1 Attack Damage and -1 THAC0. At Level 9, opponents instead suffer -2 AC, -2 Attack Damage and -2 THAC0 and must save versus breath weapons at -2, or Panic for the duration of effects. At Level 18, opponents instead suffer -3 AC, -3 Attack Damage and -3 THAC0 and must save versus breath weapons at -4, or Panic for the duration of effects. Lasts 18 seconds (3 rounds).


Disadvantages:
[-] Cannot wear armor beyond Studded Leather.
[-] Cannot become proficient in ranged weapons.
[-] Cannot place points into SWORD AND SHIELD style.
[-] AC penalty versus Missiles, -4.

Tanthalas

>_>

Thematically speaking, when I read Duelist the first image that crops up in my mind is a guy fighting with a one-handed sword (like fencers). It doesn't make much sense for them to start with points in Two-handed weapon style. They should instead get two free points in single weapon style.

For disadvantages they should instead be like this:

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear armor beyond Studded Leather.
- Cannot use Ranged Weapons
- Cannot use Shields
- May only use one-handed melee weapons.
- May only progress beyond "Proficient" in Bastard Sword, Long Sword, Short Sword, Scimitar and Katana.

Tanthalas

@Boaster

Lol, you can't post an idea for a new kit and then expect people to not share their opinion about it.

Tanthalas

Hey, critics have the right to have opinions too!

And I actually did make suggestions to improve this kit and your previous Gladiator kit.

smeagolheart

Didn't read it. Don't care. Your thoughts and opinions are nil here. You should start a thread with your own kit ideas.

Why open a thread if you don't want people to comment on it?

Boaster

And you can't post an idea for a [b]new kit[/b], period.

Need I say more?

Tanthalas

Ok, I don't think that Boaster should be annoyed so much about people posting their opinions, but I don't think its reached a level where people should flag his posts.

I'll let another moderator make a decision about my posts that were flagged. >_>

Boaster

Didn't read it. Don't care. Your thoughts and opinions are nil here. You should start a thread with your own kit ideas.

Why open a thread if you don't want people to comment on it?

You cannot choose your critics, neither can I. I do not appreciate destructive criticism with the type of "nagging mother" frequency in following what I post.

Tanthalas

@Boaster
I'm not following you, I actually read most of the stuff that's posted on the boards. And I'm sorry, but I'm not making destructive criticism when I suggest changes to your kit. You can not like my suggestions, but that doesn't make them destructive.

Boaster

@Tanthalas
Then I respectfully say, please do not share your constructive or destructive criticism

I post the kit to share ideas.

Tanthalas

@Boaster

Lol sorry, but until told otherwise, I'm allowed to post my opinions as long as I do it in a civil and respectful manner.

Boaster

Because you like me too much and my ideas are a thorn in your brain because you have not the creative will to generate your own kit ideas. You'd much rather take the ideas of others and conform them to your own liking.

Tanthalas

Well, we all have to live with the opinions that people have of our work.

elminster

I'm dumping the Gladiator kit, because it's just too narrow a title/name for some people.

DUELIST: Ever ready to engage in a battle for honor or supremacy, a duelist is deadly foe. As a trade, and as a living, the duelist seeks to dominate opponents in every manner of combat whether mentally by humiliation or physically by outright overpowering opponents. Duelists are both mental and physical masters of armed melee combat.

Advantages:
- Starts with one point in Two-handed weapon style proficiency.

- Bonus +2 melee attack damage.

- Every 5th Level (1/5/10/15...), the Duelist gains an additional +1 AC.

- May cast ability "Boastful Challenge" at one cast per 4 levels (1/4/8/12...). Nearby opponents (50 ft radius) suffer -3 AC, -3 Attack Damage and -3 THAC0. Lasts 18 seconds (3 rounds). Additionally, at level 16, opponents must save versus breath weapons at -2, or Panic for the duration of effects.


Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear armor beyond Studded Leather.
- Cannot become proficient in ranged weapons.
- AC penalty versus Missiles, -4.

If something doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't have to. Your understanding isn't required for me to be creative

Yet, you posted this in the "Feature requests" board. You are just inviting criticism by doing that.

Boaster

Constructive criticism from new people is better than the fan-boy type

Boaster

Unfortunately, based upon current restrictions, Kensai is the only fighter class that has the most similar weapon proficiency restrictions with disabling ranged weapons and such. Additionally, would also disable Sword and Shield proficiency.

technophobe

I tend towards the Errol Flynn types of characters, so Swashbucklers and Blades are two of my favorite. I just don't think there's enough distinction between this and those two plus Kensai. Perhaps make it more in line with its one-on-one name and apply penalties to just one melee opponent. Also, there's so many enemies that would be immune to the taunt ability, it's not as useful.

Boaster

Perhaps. Kensai cannot wear armor (or bracers/gloves), Mages do not need to wear armor. Dual class, and you get a mean Fighter/Mage.

However, what if someone wants to be a Fighter, just a fighter, but also have a little spice between plain vanilla?

There are finite limitations, so no matter what Kit Idea someone has, it's going to look or sound like something else. Reminds me of the South Park episode quote "Simpsons did it!" If you've seen that episode, you can follow the idea.

Between all the existing Fighter kits, they all have huge turn offs, so I end up having to stick with a plain Fighter. There's no kit available that's near the original class, without getting too wonky, in my opinion.

Warlocked

I personally always try and steer clear of any fighter class anyway, not due to any flaw in the class. But put simply i wish my game to be a little more complicated. If i don't have to make any choices beyond where i am going to put points when i level up, or what weapon i will use before wading into a fight (my apologies for over simplifying) then i believe my overall game experience will lack a certain flavor, Indeed the 'Simpsons did it!' is always too easy to fall into without some kind of extra abilities from which you can weave an interesting fight from. Be it simply a couple of ranger spells or even something as simple as choosing when to use your barbarian rage.

Now finally coming around to how this is relevant, i would love to see an ability, but maybe something more like 'Duelists Gambit'; auto crit when the only party member fighting the enemy which then leaves a AC penalty for a few seconds (negate dex bonus rather than an arbitrary constant?). Basically i am thinking of something where timing is important which lends itself to the flavor of the idea. Rather than a potentially overpowered ability which helps you get the situation you want. This taunt style idea i personally feel is out of character for what you suggest, if on the other hand you changed it from an AoE to a single target, so you are challenging a single foe to personal combat i wouldn't be able to agree more. A Duelist is someone who excels in single combat (duel). If this isn't actually the kind of character you are proposing, maybe a shift in the name of the kit would be more appropriate than a mechanic tweak, if only to simply avoid what is invariably a misinterpretation of the concept.

smeagolheart

NWN has Duelist prestige class. Some hallmarks are:
* Canny Defense: adds his intelligence bonus to his AC.
* Improved Reaction: a haste like special ability can use 5/day at level 10.
* Enhanced Mobility: +4 bonus to AC when not using a shield (I see this as an additional +3 bonus to AC when using single weapon proficiency equivalent).
* Precise Strike: At 5th Level gains 1d6 additional piercing damage per hit (and again at 10th).
* Flourish: At 6th level gains unlimited 2d6 flashy attack with 12 sec cooldown between uses
* Deflect Arrows: At 9th Level blocks first arrow of an attack sequence

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Duelist

I think there are possibly a lot of features of the class that could be converted to use in BG/ AD&D if one were so inclined. This could fit the classic limber Errol Flynn type guy who swings on a rope and sticks his sword in the pirate sail and rips it as he goes down.

Rasmus

A kit needs to have a link between name/theme and mechanics. This is what some criticized (constructively) by suggesting that you remove two-hander bonuses, and replace hem by single-hand bonuses; it represents the name you gave the kit better.

If you want a two-hander specialist you would probably be better of with a different kit-name.

And to those who do not see any good kits for fighters, the berserker kit is crazy for any melee-fighter (immunities=win), and Kensai is amazing for some.

smeagolheart

I think there should be more choice. Berserkers are good and Kensai are good variations. Wizard Slayer is not so good. I'd like to see Duelists and Gladiators and what not that fit in alongside the original kits for more variety, wouldn't you?

Boaster

@smeagolheart That's sort of the idea.

However, the names are apparently the hang up for some.

Haven't seen any suggestions for different names.

kamuizin

In my view the swashbuckler baldur's gate thieve kit already fill the duelist need described in this thread.

I just hope i don't get all my posts flaged like @Tanthalas just because i have a different view ! You must accept critics @Boaster, the day everyone agrees with you and no critics are made to your thread, will be a sad day, cos in fact no one cared about your idea. When some one disagree with you, at least you know that what you write is being noticed by the community of the forum.

smeagolheart

Hmm @Boaster, if I had to come up with a different name for the kit you described....

This guy is tough as evidenced for the preference of powerfully holding two handed weapons and how his armor class improves as he levels up and gets better at avoiding punishment. He is light on his feet and prefers lighter armor. I can see how this guy is but can't think of any other names.

Sounds a little bit like a Lightning Bruiser

Boaster

@smeagolheart I've been looking through a thesaurus and trying to come up with different names. It's not coming easy.

I have seen however that a similar word for Fighter, in the thesaurus is duelist and a gladiator. http://thesaurus.com/browse/fighter?s=t

Interesting, no?

Boaster

In my view the swashbuckler baldur's gate thieve kit already fill the duelist need described in this thread.

The difference between you and him, he thinks he is right when he suggests something. Suggesting you're right and someone is not, when it comes to artistic creativity, is like saying "The picture you paint is crap, let me make it better for you."

Ideas, are in a sense, an art.

I believe it's ok to disagree, but to disagree and say "I'm right" (even without saying the words, but rather by insinuation), it grows annoying.

Fighter = Duelist = Gladiator

And he was giving me grief in the previous thread about "your idea is a Kensai-lite" or "lite-lite." Then when he makes an obvious "kensai-lite" suggestion with "May only progress beyond "Proficient" in Bastard Sword, Long Sword, Short Sword, Scimitar and Katana."

Additionally, I asked twice in the Gladiator thread what he suggested. He made no suggestion. So, he either makes no suggestion or suggests something that's in contradictory to his "kensai-lite" statement.

Kensai is the "Sword Saint" and I'm trying to suggest something of a two-handed wielding character. And he's suggesting a Sword Character. (Yes, I know the Kensai not technically limited to swords).

Wouldn't you be annoyed if someone called your idea a "Kensai-lite" and then later suggest a "Kensai-lite" suggestion?? It's like the pot calling the kettle black and making fun of it. It's like Kevin Costner making fun of Russell Crowe for playing the role of Robin Hood in a cinematic movie.

Tanthalas

To be fair, the difference between my "Kensai-lite" and your "Kensai-lite", is that your "Kensai-lite" basically was almost as powerful (if not more powerful) as a Kensai but with notably fewer disadvantages.

The only thing you can accuse my "Kensai-lite" of is that it had more disadvantages than yours.

Boaster

So adding a disadvantage that makes it MORE Kensai-like is now a good thing?

Tanthalas

The disadvantages that I suggested were actually steeper than what Kensai's have to deal with. Kensai's can use and achieve Grand Mastery with any 2-handed or 1-handed weapon.

Boaster

It makes no sense then for the Kensai, a sword saint, to progress beyond proficient in other weapons besides and another kit to not to. If this is the case, then the "Sword Saint" is no longer the "Sword Saint" because there is another kit limited strictly to swords.