Waiting for the release of BGEE I decided to play trough the whole saga. I was surprised that even after not having played BG for six years, I was unable to bring myself further into ToB than to the threshold of Yaga-Shura's fiery lair. Years ago, I would have voted "it's ok", but I can't anymore.
A linear plot is not necessarily bad. It can give pace and impart a sense of urgency (the NWN mod Crimson Tides over Tethyr comes to mind). There is some sense of urgency in Saradush, but that's about it. And the game forces me rather than *makes me want to* go here and there.
The pace is broken by the forced trips to the pocket plane:
*Woooosh* Charname: Uh? What? Solar: Do you regret anything? Charname: Er... yeah... I guess... Solar: Fine, here's some bad*ss sh*t for you to fight!
And next time:
*Woooosh* Charname: Oh... hello again... Solar: Tea or coffee? Charname: Come again? Solar: Do you prefer tea or coffee? Charname: I certainly like a nice cuppa! Solar: Splendid, splendid, here's some more bad*ss sh*t for you to fight! Charname: Jaheira, what does our contract say about holidays?
Epic scale and epic levels? It doesn't quite work for me. It becomes less personal and Charname gets de-individualised. And it doesn't feel right to become more powerful than Elminster without the 2000 years and the pointy hat.
But that's just me.
If Beamdog manages to make ToB replayable for me again within the limitations of their contract they will have done something epic.
I normally have mixed feelings regarding ToB but i have always finished it if i have started a trilogy run.
The main positive for me was bringing the focus back to the Bhaalspawn and the playing out of the prophecies, don't get me wrong i loved SoA and it's still my favourite game of the trilogy but the focus was more on Irenicus then your character.
The other positives include the more fun and diverse fights in the series (Sendai and Watchers Keep.) speaking of which Watchers Keep was brilliant and definitely lived up to the reputation Durlag's Tower had from ToTSC.
The main negative however is quite a big one for me, Amelyssan. She just felt last minute and not something that your character was building up for. I may be wrong but i don't recall any references or hints to her beforehand in the previous games, it was just SURPRISE! here's the end boss (i know a lot of the chars in ToB mention her before the end)
I don't mind the epic levels like a lot of people here, it felt more fitting to your characters destiny.
Amelyssan is one of the worst things about ToB for me. I mean, I understand (like others have said) that Irenicus was a tough act to follow, but really, Amelyssan? It's probable that she was intended to have significantly more development in the original full-game plan, perhaps a vastly slower build up and a far more nuanced backstory. Maybe she wasn't supposed to be in it at all! Who knows.
I think what grates me and a lot of others about her is that at the start you have to go along with her, despite the fact that she is the absolute height of suspicion. Compare this to Sarevok and the Iron Throne in BG1, where we know they're evil but society generally thinks they're amazing and saving everyone from the iron crisis. In this scenario you can see everyone being manipulated but are generally unable to stop it, which adds to the tension and the drama of the events. We can't do the same with Melissan. We're forced to go along with her plan like sheep to the slaughter, until a *SURPRISE!* that 11/10 people saw coming 30 miles back.
She was just a very lacklustre villain, especially after Irenicus, but even after Sarevok who is not (IMO) the most complex or developed of villains himself.
Personally I think Sarevok was the best of the bunch, with several layers of intrigue going on. Irenicus was actually a pretty shallow villain, admittedly, because he literally was an almost empty shell of a being as a plot point, though it's mostly David Warner's performance that helps sell him as a villain (Sarevok's VA was also spot on, though you don't really get much of the voice work till ToB, since you just don't really interact with him directly nearly as much as you do with Irenicus).
Definitely some of the endless battling gets tedious. The dungeons and quests are just way less interesting, and there's so much buffing-debuffing in all the fights, which is also tedious. There's also about 1,000 ways to instantly die, so the constant reload gets old.
Still a great game, but yeah on replays I often find myself giving up in the middle of ToB
I'd like ToB a lot more if my true neutral (of the jerkass variant) character wasn't treated as an evil monster just because I'm contemptuous towards ms. solar and her idiocy, refusing to give her the most hammy, goody-two-shoes answers. though you're already treated that way at the end of SoA...
also, if I could maybe have an actually neutral ending where you ascend...
but all of that wouldn't matter if I at least had an option of taking ms. solar down a notch, by the way of broken teeth and an insertion of several boots up her rear by way of repeated kicking... I don't think I've ever wanted to bash anyone's head in during the trilogy as much as hers.
It's ok, because it adds a lot of abilities / spells, and ends the story. It's not really bad. But the major weakness, in my opinion, is that almost no opponent can really be a challenge for your team now.
Everytime you see a supposedly invincible bhaalspawn, it's just another Loki you can smash so easily, just like in this hilarious scene : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjK9CSZwx4w
I like it, but i prefer the challenge that SoA and the first BG offered.
I'd like to observe that the game is generally considered a Trilogy. Thus BG1, BG2 and ToB. No mention of ToSC, which is generally considered as just extra content. I think that really speaks to how ToB was received and how 'Generally' people feel about the whole thing. Or maybe I am wrong about that.
It's called a Trilogy because Throne of Bhaal was supposed to be a full 3rd game, but was cut down into a tiny, highly linear expansion pack due to their DnD license going to run out, and WotC wouldn't let them renew their 2nd edition license since they don't allow licenses for older systems that would compete with their current system and 3rd edition had been released by then, so Thone of Bhaal would've had to be made using the 3rd edition system and broke the plans to allow importing, and thus they cut it down and tried to tie things up as neatly as possible, under the time constraints.
That's also why there's so many contradictions in the ToB story as well..they didn't have time to do proper fact checking through the previous games to ensure everything was lining up neatly.
I get that. But that is what was "Intended" by the publishers. What consumers see and believe tends to be nothing related to what the publishers intend.
The perception amongst the community at large seems to be that it is positive enough to constitute the third game in a trilogy. Ok, maybe not the most loved. But still a property in it's own right. And considering that it was released as an expansion, I'd say that says something about the community acceptance of it. Just sayin.
It's called a Trilogy because Throne of Bhaal was supposed to be a full 3rd game, but was cut down into a tiny, highly linear expansion pack due to their DnD license going to run out, and WotC wouldn't let them renew their 2nd edition license since they don't allow licenses for older systems that would compete with their current system and 3rd edition had been released by then, so Thone of Bhaal would've had to be made using the 3rd edition system and broke the plans to allow importing, and thus they cut it down and tried to tie things up as neatly as possible, under the time constraints.
That's also why there's so many contradictions in the ToB story as well..they didn't have time to do proper fact checking through the previous games to ensure everything was lining up neatly.
It seems we are lucky that they didn't wait and make it third edition. At least I'm happy they didn't make it third edition. Too bad Wizard's of the Coast are such pains in the butt when it comes to allowing people to use the older D&D rule system.
It's called a Trilogy because Throne of Bhaal was supposed to be a full 3rd game, but was cut down into a tiny, highly linear expansion pack due to their DnD license going to run out, and WotC wouldn't let them renew their 2nd edition license since they don't allow licenses for older systems that would compete with their current system and 3rd edition had been released by then, so Thone of Bhaal would've had to be made using the 3rd edition system and broke the plans to allow importing, and thus they cut it down and tried to tie things up as neatly as possible, under the time constraints.
That's also why there's so many contradictions in the ToB story as well..they didn't have time to do proper fact checking through the previous games to ensure everything was lining up neatly.
It seems we are lucky that they didn't wait and make it third edition. At least I'm happy they didn't make it third edition. Too bad Wizard's of the Coast are such pains in the butt when it comes to allowing people to use the older D&D rule system.
It's called a Trilogy because Throne of Bhaal was supposed to be a full 3rd game, but was cut down into a tiny, highly linear expansion pack due to their DnD license going to run out, and WotC wouldn't let them renew their 2nd edition license since they don't allow licenses for older systems that would compete with their current system and 3rd edition had been released by then, so Thone of Bhaal would've had to be made using the 3rd edition system and broke the plans to allow importing, and thus they cut it down and tried to tie things up as neatly as possible, under the time constraints.
That's also why there's so many contradictions in the ToB story as well..they didn't have time to do proper fact checking through the previous games to ensure everything was lining up neatly.
It seems we are lucky that they didn't wait and make it third edition. At least I'm happy they didn't make it third edition. Too bad Wizard's of the Coast are such pains in the butt when it comes to allowing people to use the older D&D rule system.
That I agree with completely. Even though I consider ToB the weakest link of the series, at least it's still basically 2E and compatible with the entire play through. Sure would be nice if they'd license older rule sets...
nonsense,after all we've been through it's a great time for some epic hack and slash,i'd rather it a bit longer and with some harder fights thought.
the complains about Sarevok joining making no sense are also not very founded: the man devoted his life to the prophecies he literally has nothing else to do.
perhaps SoA should be longer instead,ToB is a solid ending,maybe it could be a better but so can be said for most things.
I have to agree with you @bill_zagoudis. Many is the time that a Sci-Fi or Fantasy storyline will rope in a former antagonist to solve the larger problem later in the series. I think it makes perfect sense. And really no one knows the Baalspawn better than Saravok as he spent a good deal of his life (and death) trying to get rid of them.
It seems we are lucky that they didn't wait and make it third edition. At least I'm happy they didn't make it third edition. Too bad Wizard's of the Coast are such pains in the butt when it comes to allowing people to use the older D&D rule system.
Could not possibly agree more. 2E worked so well from a video game perspective. Think of all the gold box TBS ones as well. No rule system seems to have worked as well since. Don't know why the company fails to get this.
Comments
A linear plot is not necessarily bad. It can give pace and impart a sense of urgency (the NWN mod Crimson Tides over Tethyr comes to mind). There is some sense of urgency in Saradush, but that's about it. And the game forces me rather than *makes me want to* go here and there.
The pace is broken by the forced trips to the pocket plane:
*Woooosh*
Charname: Uh? What?
Solar: Do you regret anything?
Charname: Er... yeah... I guess...
Solar: Fine, here's some bad*ss sh*t for you to fight!
And next time:
*Woooosh*
Charname: Oh... hello again...
Solar: Tea or coffee?
Charname: Come again?
Solar: Do you prefer tea or coffee?
Charname: I certainly like a nice cuppa!
Solar: Splendid, splendid, here's some more bad*ss sh*t for you to fight!
Charname: Jaheira, what does our contract say about holidays?
Epic scale and epic levels? It doesn't quite work for me. It becomes less personal and Charname gets de-individualised. And it doesn't feel right to become more powerful than Elminster without the 2000 years and the pointy hat.
But that's just me.
If Beamdog manages to make ToB replayable for me again within the limitations of their contract they will have done something epic.
The main positive for me was bringing the focus back to the Bhaalspawn and the playing out of the prophecies, don't get me wrong i loved SoA and it's still my favourite game of the trilogy but the focus was more on Irenicus then your character.
The other positives include the more fun and diverse fights in the series (Sendai and Watchers Keep.) speaking of which Watchers Keep was brilliant and definitely lived up to the reputation Durlag's Tower had from ToTSC.
The main negative however is quite a big one for me, Amelyssan. She just felt last minute and not something that your character was building up for. I may be wrong but i don't recall any references or hints to her beforehand in the previous games, it was just SURPRISE! here's the end boss (i know a lot of the chars in ToB mention her before the end)
I don't mind the epic levels like a lot of people here, it felt more fitting to your characters destiny.
I think what grates me and a lot of others about her is that at the start you have to go along with her, despite the fact that she is the absolute height of suspicion. Compare this to Sarevok and the Iron Throne in BG1, where we know they're evil but society generally thinks they're amazing and saving everyone from the iron crisis. In this scenario you can see everyone being manipulated but are generally unable to stop it, which adds to the tension and the drama of the events. We can't do the same with Melissan. We're forced to go along with her plan like sheep to the slaughter, until a *SURPRISE!* that 11/10 people saw coming 30 miles back.
She was just a very lacklustre villain, especially after Irenicus, but even after Sarevok who is not (IMO) the most complex or developed of villains himself.
Still a great game, but yeah on replays I often find myself giving up in the middle of ToB
but all of that wouldn't matter if I at least had an option of taking ms. solar down a notch, by the way of broken teeth and an insertion of several boots up her rear by way of repeated kicking... I don't think I've ever wanted to bash anyone's head in during the trilogy as much as hers.
Everytime you see a supposedly invincible bhaalspawn, it's just another Loki you can smash so easily, just like in this hilarious scene :
I like it, but i prefer the challenge that SoA and the first BG offered.
That's also why there's so many contradictions in the ToB story as well..they didn't have time to do proper fact checking through the previous games to ensure everything was lining up neatly.
The perception amongst the community at large seems to be that it is positive enough to constitute the third game in a trilogy. Ok, maybe not the most loved. But still a property in it's own right. And considering that it was released as an expansion, I'd say that says something about the community acceptance of it. Just sayin.
the complains about Sarevok joining making no sense are also not very founded: the man devoted his life to the prophecies he literally has nothing else to do.
perhaps SoA should be longer instead,ToB is a solid ending,maybe it could be a better but so can be said for most things.