It could have been much better. But still a great expansion. High levels, HLAs and Watcher's Keep are wonderful, SoA games lack that. The main ToB plot is also greatly enhanced by Wheels of Prophecy and Ascension+SCSII mods, these mods make the expansion worthy of a grand finale IMHO
It's too linear. Also every guard and drunk in the gutter has +4 weapons of awesomeness. It would be better if the nuclear weapons were a little less available. As there are so many each one feels worthless because there are so many.
The plot is pretty terrible due to linearness and predictability. You are forced down the path of final showdown with a last second reveal bad guy boss who just doesn't hold a candle compared to Sarevok and Irenicus.
It could have been much better. But still a great expansion. High levels, HLAs and Watcher's Keep are wonderful, SoA games lack that. The main ToB plot is also greatly enhanced by Wheels of Prophecy and Ascension+SCSII mods, these mods make the expansion worthy of a grand finale IMHO
I cannot say I have heard of the Wheels of Prophecy Mod? Please do give some details...
The wheels of prophecy e'er turn Gorion's ward has come. Crossroads of past, present, and future The one foretold, the one foreseen.
Wheels of Prophecy began as a fairly limited mod designed to give the player the chance to register his/her distrust of a particular major character in Throne of Bhaal (in case one or two people still don't know who this is!) It grew into a project to add a bit of non-linearity to the "lead-em-by-the-nose" 9th chapter of Throne of Bhaal, and to add a bit of unfinished-business content along the way.
If you hate Throne of Bhaal with a passion, this mod isn't for you. If you have a soft spot for it, but feel it's flawed, this mod just might give the last stage in the Bhaalspawn's journey a new lease of life.
For those who've played my other mods, a word of reassurance: Wheels of Prophecy is not a tactical mod. It does introduce one or two new combat encounters (depending on the route you take) but they're not particularly difficult by the standards of Throne of Bhaal. "
Contents
In summary, Wheels of Prophecy doesn't change the events of Throne of Bhaal (not much, anyway), but it does allow the player to interact with them in a much more flexible way.
In more detail: the main change made is that the player can attempt to enter Balthazar's monastery whenever s/he likes, instead of waiting until after Sendai and Abazigal are dead. It's entirely up to you what order you do it in. If you decide to wait until Abazigal and Sendai are dead before confronting Balthazar, you won't notice much change from the vanilla game; if you decide to encounter Balthazar earlier, things may play out rather differently from what you remember. (Getting into the monastery early in the game isn't completely trivial, but it can be done (ask the smugglers, or slaughter your way in if you're that way inclined).
The mod also features:
Greatly expanded dialogue with Balthazar, Melissan, Sendai, Abazigal, and Elminster. Modifications to dialogue with Carras, Saemon, Faheed, Zahee, and the Solar. Minor unfinished-business content with the smugglers that didn't quite make it into Throne of Bhaal. Extra encounters part-way through dealing with the Five (depending which route you take) and just before confronting Melissan. An expanded conversation with the stone heads featuring voicing cut from the released version of Throne of Bhaal, but unearthed recently by K'aeloree of Spellhold Studios. And more!
To get the most out of the mod, you should start a new game, or at least start a new party at the start of Throne of Bhaal. Most of the new content doesn't show up until you arrive at Amkethran, though, so any save before then should be compatible. (You will, however, miss the chance to tell Melissan where to go.)
IF you're looking to see the most new content on a first playthrough, probably the best thing to do is to start with Balthazar's monastery. Good-aligned parties may then have to beat a hasty retreat; more bloodthirsty parties may have other ideas. "
@Messi: I was referring to the "core" Ascension mod - per the readme:
The mod mostly affects the end part of the game, starting at the very end of Chapter 9 when you meet with Balthazar and climaxing at the site of the ascension in the Throne of Bhaal.
There are a few minor changes introduced earlier - you can give Sarevok back his Sword of Chaos and power it up to +4, and the Slayer form levels up at 2/4/6 million XP. But the real changes, the ones that make "Ascension" so memorable, kick in during the final confrontation with Amelyssan:
1. She conjures up Irenicus and Bodhi (but if your PC is evil, you can convince Bodhi to side with you).
2. If Sarevok is in your party, Amelyssan will try to turn him against you. She'll succeed if you geased him to serve you; if you didn't and your alignments are the same (Good/Good or Evil/Evil) he'll stay with you.
3. If Imoen is in your party, Amelyssan will trigger her transformation into the Slayer.
4. When the three pools have been disrupted, Amelyssan will summon the Five for the grand finale. Those of you who've complained about how godlike you feel at level 30 may be singing a different tune when Yaga-Shura, Sendai, Illasera, Abazigal, Gromnir il-Khan and Amelyssan are ganging up on you.
If it had been available I would have chose something in between it's OK and I don't like it - but this site isn't exactly known for it's outstanding poll construction LOL
I only finished it once as I recall and more importantly for me ( a chronic restarter) I can't recall even starting it more than a few times.
It's no doubt mostly becuase I'm not a fan of "epic" level D&D style gaming especially in a team environment - characters get way over the top at these levels and the things they face are often absurd no doubt at least in part because it's so difficult to contruct meaningful encounters that will challenge characters at these levels.
In any event there is just way too much going on to manage a group of six of these high level mini-gods and have any fun with it for me.
Even the levels reached in the second half of SOA were really beyond my comfort zone - I really like dealing with D&D characters from level 1 through about the mid teens - maybe 20ish on the outside.
It would not bother me if TOB was not added to the EE series - or if it was delayed while they worked on BG3 - (unless that game is going to start out above level 20 too.) ;-)
As earlier stated, the crazy powerful god levels are not my cup of tea. I play ToB for a few reasons, but I rarely play it: - I love fighting giants (one reason I enjoy Icewind Dale so much I am sure) - I love fighting dragons (who doesn't?) - Sarevok is awesome - Some mods have NPCs with interesting ToB stories - The Sendai fight is very interesting
Things I don't like about ToB: - Too high of a power level, my same issue with Mask of the Betrayer. Not for me, though I respect that some people like it. - Plot twist/ final villain is...awful at best... - A city that has +3 weapons of every variety (INCLUDING KATANAS) readily available for purchase, but can't seem to fend off fire giants (ignore the Bhaalspawn leader). - No Yoshimo :-( - Cespenar's voice
So I'll play it sometimes. I have beaten it twice: once with my Cavalier who I played through Tutu and SoA, once with a bounty hunter-->dual-->fighter who decided black razor was worth becoming evil.
I will most likely play it a few more times, for some mod NPCs and once or twice for EE (multiplayer maybe too).
It's the classic case of the third in the series not maintaining the (overly hyped) expectations of the previous two. ToB and Return of the Jedi suffer from the same malaise... But they are actually ok.
Who doesn't like wildmages? Non existent without ToB.
Who doesn't like an ewok? Non existent with... Ok. Bad example.
It's the classic case of the third in the series not maintaining the (overly hyped) expectations of the previous two. ToB and Return of the Jedi suffer from the same malaise... But they are actually ok.
Not quite - ToB is an expansion pack, not a full sequel; one might as well compare "Tales of the Sword Coast" to BG1.
@shawne ToB added separate material, after the events of SoA. BGT or Baldur's Gate Trilogy is so called because of this. TofSC only added to BG events, not after Saveoursock's death.
ToB has its own plotline...
However you are right. It was sold as an add on...
@Anduin: Regardless of how it was sold, ToB is an add-on. It has about the same amount of content as TotSC: one new town (Ulgoth's Beard/Saradush), one mega-dungeon (Durlag's Tower/Watcher's Keep), and a few other areas (Werewolf Island/Amkethran) leading up to a major boss fight (Aec'Letec/Amelyssan). The only real difference is that TotSC's story is folded into the main campaign of BG1, while ToB takes place after BG2.
@shawne :-D Not arguing. It is more the feel and vibe it gives. It is the end of saga. Hence why Baldur's Gate Trilogy is hence called
Thinking completely out the box though and getting back to the thread. . We should be glad ToB wasn't perfect. It would make the making of a true 3rd installment BG3:EE even more daunting!
I said I liked it and do always play it after BG2 But I more leaning to its OK one the things I liked about Baldur's Gate 1 with the TotSC XP is that your character advanced slowly the highest level you could obtain was 10 and 23 with BG2: SoA. ToB comes alongs and your characters and NPCs are rocketing up thelevel tree like a cruise missle but watcher's keep was awesome
Not until I started following these forums in preparation for BG:EE's release did I realize that not everyone liked ToB. I thought it was fucking awesome and not only do i play through it when i complete SoA, I oftentimes will just start at ToB.
My only issue with it - like some others have mentioned - is that character progression at those high levels isn't as apparent.
It was pretty good, a bit tedious at times (especially the final battle) but I didn't have a problem with it. I agree with the general consensus here that it was weaker than Baldur's Gate and Shadows of Amn, but I thought it was a satisfying conclusion overall.
I thought NWNs campaigns were horrid until HotU. I thought it was fantastic! i have great memories of my sorcerer shape changing into an iron golem and tearing thru the mind flayers, and a dragon during the drow invasion
I've never completed ToB to be honest. I did the watchers keep which broke me down mentally and I just reached Amkethran with my party. I've been chipping away at this play through for a few years playing the odd time... I've played through Saradush and the bits of the Yaga Shura part quite a few times with different play throughs but end up falling off and being simply overwhelmed. It gets to a point where you can't even utilize everything you have. I actually had the will and drive to complete it but I had ridiculous FPS issues in Yaga Shura's lair with all the buffs and everything to the point it was unplayable and my interest died off.
I like Throne of Bhaal. Sarevok is a cool NPC. I found it a bit of a pity you couldn't visit places from SoA, despite the locations from ToB not being extremely far away from Amn. But I have to admit I never came around to finish it.
For me it is certainly the weakest part of the trilogy. The story is forced, very linear and there is little room for exploration. It all feels very rushed. Particularly annoying was how even cannon fodder were all equipped with +3 weapons, armour etc. I do not know whether the epic abilities were necessarily a good thing or not given that enemy NPCs do not tend to use such abilities.
I agree with you about the magical weapons, such overabundance makes them trivial.
However, in my eyes, SoA is not as non-linear or long as people like to believe. At its core it is...
Irenicus' Dungeon > Earn 10,000 GP > Ally with a guild > Explore the Asylum > Teleport to Tethyr Forest > Kill Bodhi and get the lantern > Suldanessalar > Hell > Fín. (did I forget something?) You can chose between vampires or Shadow Thieves and decide to skip Fish City and the Underdark. These are pretty much your big options.
What makes the game so huge, exciting and wonderful is - obviously - the huge amount of side quests that you may solve besides the core plot and where it is largely up to you when or if they happen.
ToB appears small because it doesn't have as much extras as the core game.
I'm actually hoping that they flesh out the ToB section with optional quest-lines and extra stuff. I know they can't alter the weak plot, but they can add distracting stuff.
I actually hope for a big new map of Amn and Tethyr where all the areas of SoA and ToB are located and where there's lots of space for new placess and adventures for future DLCs to come.
It just occurs to me, wouldn't it be cool if mages could learn the teleport spells (like the NPCs), allowing to journey over the map, but without travel time?
I find ToB to be enjoyable, not as much as SoA...but pretty enjoyable nonetheless. People keep on mentioning Ascension, I haven't tried it but it looks great. I think I've read somewhere that the devs are interested in it; of course, there's still a problem with contract limitations...but it doesn't hurt to be a little bit optimistic.
Comments
The plot is pretty terrible due to linearness and predictability. You are forced down the path of final showdown with a last second reveal bad guy boss who just doesn't hold a candle compared to Sarevok and Irenicus.
I've finished it once.
Overview
The wheels of prophecy e'er turn
Gorion's ward has come.
Crossroads of past, present, and future
The one foretold, the one foreseen.
Wheels of Prophecy began as a fairly limited mod designed to give the player the chance to register his/her distrust of a particular major character in Throne of Bhaal (in case one or two people still don't know who this is!) It grew into a project to add a bit of non-linearity to the "lead-em-by-the-nose" 9th chapter of Throne of Bhaal, and to add a bit of unfinished-business content along the way.
If you hate Throne of Bhaal with a passion, this mod isn't for you. If you have a soft spot for it, but feel it's flawed, this mod just might give the last stage in the Bhaalspawn's journey a new lease of life.
For those who've played my other mods, a word of reassurance: Wheels of Prophecy is not a tactical mod. It does introduce one or two new combat encounters (depending on the route you take) but they're not particularly difficult by the standards of Throne of Bhaal. "
Contents
In summary, Wheels of Prophecy doesn't change the events of Throne of Bhaal (not much, anyway), but it does allow the player to interact with them in a much more flexible way.
In more detail: the main change made is that the player can attempt to enter Balthazar's monastery whenever s/he likes, instead of waiting until after Sendai and Abazigal are dead. It's entirely up to you what order you do it in. If you decide to wait until Abazigal and Sendai are dead before confronting Balthazar, you won't notice much change from the vanilla game; if you decide to encounter Balthazar earlier, things may play out rather differently from what you remember. (Getting into the monastery early in the game isn't completely trivial, but it can be done (ask the smugglers, or slaughter your way in if you're that way inclined).
The mod also features:
Greatly expanded dialogue with Balthazar, Melissan, Sendai, Abazigal, and Elminster.
Modifications to dialogue with Carras, Saemon, Faheed, Zahee, and the Solar.
Minor unfinished-business content with the smugglers that didn't quite make it into Throne of Bhaal.
Extra encounters part-way through dealing with the Five (depending which route you take) and just before confronting Melissan.
An expanded conversation with the stone heads featuring voicing cut from the released version of Throne of Bhaal, but unearthed recently by K'aeloree of Spellhold Studios.
And more!
To get the most out of the mod, you should start a new game, or at least start a new party at the start of Throne of Bhaal. Most of the new content doesn't show up until you arrive at Amkethran, though, so any save before then should be compatible. (You will, however, miss the chance to tell Melissan where to go.)
IF you're looking to see the most new content on a first playthrough, probably the best thing to do is to start with Balthazar's monastery. Good-aligned parties may then have to beat a hasty retreat; more bloodthirsty parties may have other ideas. "
The mod mostly affects the end part of the game, starting at the very end of Chapter 9 when you meet with Balthazar and climaxing at the site of the ascension in the Throne of Bhaal.
There are a few minor changes introduced earlier - you can give Sarevok back his Sword of Chaos and power it up to +4, and the Slayer form levels up at 2/4/6 million XP. But the real changes, the ones that make "Ascension" so memorable, kick in during the final confrontation with Amelyssan:
1. She conjures up Irenicus and Bodhi (but if your PC is evil, you can convince Bodhi to side with you).
2. If Sarevok is in your party, Amelyssan will try to turn him against you. She'll succeed if you geased him to serve you; if you didn't and your alignments are the same (Good/Good or Evil/Evil) he'll stay with you.
3. If Imoen is in your party, Amelyssan will trigger her transformation into the Slayer.
4. When the three pools have been disrupted, Amelyssan will summon the Five for the grand finale. Those of you who've complained about how godlike you feel at level 30 may be singing a different tune when Yaga-Shura, Sendai, Illasera, Abazigal, Gromnir il-Khan and Amelyssan are ganging up on you.
I only finished it once as I recall and more importantly for me ( a chronic restarter) I can't recall even starting it more than a few times.
It's no doubt mostly becuase I'm not a fan of "epic" level D&D style gaming especially in a team environment - characters get way over the top at these levels and the things they face are often absurd no doubt at least in part because it's so difficult to contruct meaningful encounters that will challenge characters at these levels.
In any event there is just way too much going on to manage a group of six of these high level mini-gods and have any fun with it for me.
Even the levels reached in the second half of SOA were really beyond my comfort zone - I really like dealing with D&D characters from level 1 through about the mid teens - maybe 20ish on the outside.
It would not bother me if TOB was not added to the EE series - or if it was delayed while they worked on BG3 - (unless that game is going to start out above level 20 too.) ;-)
- I love fighting giants (one reason I enjoy Icewind Dale so much I am sure)
- I love fighting dragons (who doesn't?)
- Sarevok is awesome
- Some mods have NPCs with interesting ToB stories
- The Sendai fight is very interesting
Things I don't like about ToB:
- Too high of a power level, my same issue with Mask of the Betrayer. Not for me, though I respect that some people like it.
- Plot twist/ final villain is...awful at best...
- A city that has +3 weapons of every variety (INCLUDING KATANAS) readily available for purchase, but can't seem to fend off fire giants (ignore the Bhaalspawn leader).
- No Yoshimo :-(
- Cespenar's voice
So I'll play it sometimes. I have beaten it twice: once with my Cavalier who I played through Tutu and SoA, once with a bounty hunter-->dual-->fighter who decided black razor was worth becoming evil.
I will most likely play it a few more times, for some mod NPCs and once or twice for EE (multiplayer maybe too).
Who doesn't like wildmages? Non existent without ToB.
Who doesn't like an ewok? Non existent with... Ok. Bad example.
ToB has its own plotline...
However you are right. It was sold as an add on...
Thinking completely out the box though and getting back to the thread. . We should be glad ToB wasn't perfect. It would make the making of a true 3rd installment BG3:EE even more daunting!
and do always play it after BG2
But I more leaning to its OK
one the things I liked about Baldur's Gate 1 with the TotSC XP
is that your character advanced slowly the highest level you could obtain was 10
and 23 with BG2: SoA.
ToB comes alongs and your characters and NPCs are rocketing up thelevel tree like a cruise missle
but watcher's keep was awesome
My only issue with it - like some others have mentioned - is that character progression at those high levels isn't as apparent.
However, in my eyes, SoA is not as non-linear or long as people like to believe. At its core it is...
Irenicus' Dungeon > Earn 10,000 GP > Ally with a guild > Explore the Asylum > Teleport to Tethyr Forest > Kill Bodhi and get the lantern > Suldanessalar > Hell > Fín. (did I forget something?)
You can chose between vampires or Shadow Thieves and decide to skip Fish City and the Underdark. These are pretty much your big options.
What makes the game so huge, exciting and wonderful is - obviously - the huge amount of side quests that you may solve besides the core plot and where it is largely up to you when or if they happen.
ToB appears small because it doesn't have as much extras as the core game. I actually hope for a big new map of Amn and Tethyr where all the areas of SoA and ToB are located and where there's lots of space for new placess and adventures for future DLCs to come.
It just occurs to me, wouldn't it be cool if mages could learn the teleport spells (like the NPCs), allowing to journey over the map, but without travel time?