Level Drain in BG2:EE. Keep it, remove it or change it?
Mathmick
Member Posts: 326
Opening words:
I've always maintained that it wasn't Twilight and other "Vampire Romance" novels, movies and television series that ruined the awesomeness of vampires. No, vampires brought shuddering long before that... in Baldur's Gate II *shudder*.
SPOILERS: Spoilers of monsters, spell names, item names and effects etc. may (i.e. definitely WILL) be mentioned in this thread. You are warned.
Level Drain:
Level Drain is a mechanic in Baldur's Gate II that causes an affected target's attributes to change as if s/he was a lower level than they actually are. The character then loses the ability to gain levels until the effect ends, however the effect is typically permanent until the character has been restored through a Restoration spell or a Temple.
Level Drain is probably the most frustrating mechanic in the entire series. Not for its effects, though they can be quite nasty, but the way the mechanic is handled in both its use by enemies and counterplay by the player.
Effects of Level Drain:
Level Drain has only one basic effect on a character, though this can extend to weakening the character in a number of ways.
As stated above, Level Drain removes experience levels from the character, removing most bonuses that come with it. In particular, a character's THAC0 and Saving Throws, though more notably the number of spells memorised per day is decreased, taking away spells in the process. Even after the level drain is removed, spell slots must be re-filled with spells, simply another annoyance the player must deal with.
Of course, one of the most important attributes associated with your character's level is their maximum hit points, and these are reduced for the duration also. Though generally more of a nuisance if anything, being hit multiple times leaves the character extremely vulnerable if they continue to be attacked through most means, especially at level 1-9 where hit point gain is at its maximum.
Combat:
For almost all monsters that use level drain (Vampires, Wraiths, Vampiric Mists, etc.), the effect is applied on-hit without a saving throw. This means that if a Vampire so much as touches you through your shiny armour, you have lost levels. Being hit is guaranteed if your character is stunned (or under a similar effect e.g. Hold, Unconscious), though this is not common as these creatures are not often paired which monsters that can do such (e.g. Shadow Fiends).
For those unwilling to take the risk of being hit in a combat situation, there are options available. The most significant effect is Negative Plane Protection, a fancy name for something that does nothing except prevent (though not cure) Level Drain. The most direct way to get this effect is through the 4th level Priest spell appropriately named Negative Plane Protection. This spell grants the defence after a long casting time to the target. Though this might seem the absolute counter to Level Drain is the same way that Protection from Petrification is such to Basilisk Gaze, however this is not the case. The downside of this spell which has one purpose: to prevent frustration against Vampires and Wraiths, is that it only does so for 4 rounds. For a 4th level spell, it is basically a slap-in-the-face to anything that doesn't want the levels sucked out of them for any extended combat situation. Reapplication is difficult because of the cast time, applying it to more than a couple of party members is flat out rediculous, and since each one takes up a valuable spell slot better spent elsewhere (Protection from Evil 10' radius, Defensive Harmony, Cure Serious Wounds etc.), you are either putting all your slots towards one situation or not using the spell at all.
The other way to get Negative Plane Protection is through items. In BG2:SoA, where you most want the enchanted goodies, there are only two significant items that grant the effect: The Amulet of Power and the Mace of Disruption +2. However, the Mace of Disruption is so out-of-the-way for a new player to obtain that it might as well not exist. This leaves the Amulet of Power, a great spellcaster Amulet that gives NPP while worn. It can be used by anyone capable of any form of Divine or Arcane casting (i.e. almost everyone), so it can be given to your frontliner who is immune to Level Drain. The frustrating disadvantage of this is that you only get one frontliner, just in case the other might get targeted. If you have the Mace of Disruption +2 through either game knowledge or just being lucky enough to do everything you need to get it, this is less of a problem, though moving other characters forward may still be a risky move in some zones.
Post-Combat:
While it may sound insignificant, this is the part where level drain is the most annoying to deal with. There are two methods of removal, and they are Temples and Restoration spells. These have downsides, unfortunately. Temples will restore and fatigue the whole party. The spell is a 4th level Priest spell used for one purpose, meaning a potentially wasted spell slot, and fatigues the caster on use. While this may seem trivial, not having either on hand means that if you want to remove the Level Drain status immediately,you need a rest to change your priest's spells, and another rest to remove fatigue and change back. Avid role-players may dislike this, and players who don't care about role-playing may find it pointless and annoying, particularly if this is after every encounter.
Of course, if any character with magic is hit by Level Drain, you have to reset their spell list, a potential pain if want the same setup as before the draining encounter.
Solutions:
Level Drain is by no means the most powerful effect in the game, however, it is easily the most frustrating. All the annoyance comes not from its effects on your characters, but from the post-effects and the lack of readily-accessible counter-play you can use.
Even the other significantly frustrating effects (e.g. Fear) have easy access to counters in combat (e.g. Remove Fear, Bard Song) which makes you feel like good for taking control of the situation. Level Drain doesn't have this and other than its debuff on characters seems explicitly designed to annoy and frustrate the player that it is used on, a horrible design for a game mechanic to have.
The first modification to the game to improve the effects is to have the game not forget memorised spells on being Level Drained. Remembering the spell selection and re-enabling the spells post-Drain instantly makes level drain less frustrating to deal with when it affects casters.
Another change that should be made is to fix Negative Plane Protection and Lesser Restoration. Both of these spells are designed to deal with one effect and have massive downsides where lower-level spells with the same intentions don't (Resist/Remove Fear, Remove Paralysis, Protection from Petrification etc.). Increasing the duration of the former (with possible duration/level scaling) and removing the fatigue on the latter removes the downsides that really had no reason to be there in the first place.
Making Negative Plane Protection worth using as a spell also removes the dependency on items to deal with monsters that use level drain.
Another possible change is to make each level drain effect have a duration. This means that although counter-play options are unchanged, it serves its role as merely a unique debuff rather than an annoying status that needs to be cured eventually. This would be similar to how Intelligence Reduced by Mindflayer stacks and wears off after a time.
However, this one I don't necessarily think is a great idea because Level Drain may be more associated with a permanent effect. I'll leave this here anyway for discussion.
Pre-replies to annoying stuff:
"TL;DR"
Reply - "l2read pls"
"You just want the game to be easier"
Reply - "If you read the post you'll actually note that I barely discuss the difficulty of fights and battles and focus on why Level Drain is frustrating to have used on your characters. My intention is to remove the annoying nature of the current implementation whilst keeping its main effects on the combat scenario to a minimum and adding counter-play options similar to what other spells have."
"But the DnD rules say...'
Reply - "This isn't about DnD rules. This is about the health of the game. As I said in another thread: The rules should change to improve the game, not the game being restricted to adhere to the rules."
Summary:
Level Drain is a mechanic that doubles as a minor debuff and a major annoyance without counter-play options. By evening the playing field between its poor counter options and the counter-play to other somewhat annoying game mechanics, the game can be made less frustrating while barely affecting the enemy encounters themselves.
NOTE: This is all my own opinion and thus you can argue against it. I welcome the discussion.
I've always maintained that it wasn't Twilight and other "Vampire Romance" novels, movies and television series that ruined the awesomeness of vampires. No, vampires brought shuddering long before that... in Baldur's Gate II *shudder*.
SPOILERS: Spoilers of monsters, spell names, item names and effects etc. may (i.e. definitely WILL) be mentioned in this thread. You are warned.
Level Drain:
Level Drain is a mechanic in Baldur's Gate II that causes an affected target's attributes to change as if s/he was a lower level than they actually are. The character then loses the ability to gain levels until the effect ends, however the effect is typically permanent until the character has been restored through a Restoration spell or a Temple.
Level Drain is probably the most frustrating mechanic in the entire series. Not for its effects, though they can be quite nasty, but the way the mechanic is handled in both its use by enemies and counterplay by the player.
Effects of Level Drain:
Level Drain has only one basic effect on a character, though this can extend to weakening the character in a number of ways.
As stated above, Level Drain removes experience levels from the character, removing most bonuses that come with it. In particular, a character's THAC0 and Saving Throws, though more notably the number of spells memorised per day is decreased, taking away spells in the process. Even after the level drain is removed, spell slots must be re-filled with spells, simply another annoyance the player must deal with.
Of course, one of the most important attributes associated with your character's level is their maximum hit points, and these are reduced for the duration also. Though generally more of a nuisance if anything, being hit multiple times leaves the character extremely vulnerable if they continue to be attacked through most means, especially at level 1-9 where hit point gain is at its maximum.
Combat:
For almost all monsters that use level drain (Vampires, Wraiths, Vampiric Mists, etc.), the effect is applied on-hit without a saving throw. This means that if a Vampire so much as touches you through your shiny armour, you have lost levels. Being hit is guaranteed if your character is stunned (or under a similar effect e.g. Hold, Unconscious), though this is not common as these creatures are not often paired which monsters that can do such (e.g. Shadow Fiends).
For those unwilling to take the risk of being hit in a combat situation, there are options available. The most significant effect is Negative Plane Protection, a fancy name for something that does nothing except prevent (though not cure) Level Drain. The most direct way to get this effect is through the 4th level Priest spell appropriately named Negative Plane Protection. This spell grants the defence after a long casting time to the target. Though this might seem the absolute counter to Level Drain is the same way that Protection from Petrification is such to Basilisk Gaze, however this is not the case. The downside of this spell which has one purpose: to prevent frustration against Vampires and Wraiths, is that it only does so for 4 rounds. For a 4th level spell, it is basically a slap-in-the-face to anything that doesn't want the levels sucked out of them for any extended combat situation. Reapplication is difficult because of the cast time, applying it to more than a couple of party members is flat out rediculous, and since each one takes up a valuable spell slot better spent elsewhere (Protection from Evil 10' radius, Defensive Harmony, Cure Serious Wounds etc.), you are either putting all your slots towards one situation or not using the spell at all.
The other way to get Negative Plane Protection is through items. In BG2:SoA, where you most want the enchanted goodies, there are only two significant items that grant the effect: The Amulet of Power and the Mace of Disruption +2. However, the Mace of Disruption is so out-of-the-way for a new player to obtain that it might as well not exist. This leaves the Amulet of Power, a great spellcaster Amulet that gives NPP while worn. It can be used by anyone capable of any form of Divine or Arcane casting (i.e. almost everyone), so it can be given to your frontliner who is immune to Level Drain. The frustrating disadvantage of this is that you only get one frontliner, just in case the other might get targeted. If you have the Mace of Disruption +2 through either game knowledge or just being lucky enough to do everything you need to get it, this is less of a problem, though moving other characters forward may still be a risky move in some zones.
Post-Combat:
While it may sound insignificant, this is the part where level drain is the most annoying to deal with. There are two methods of removal, and they are Temples and Restoration spells. These have downsides, unfortunately. Temples will restore and fatigue the whole party. The spell is a 4th level Priest spell used for one purpose, meaning a potentially wasted spell slot, and fatigues the caster on use. While this may seem trivial, not having either on hand means that if you want to remove the Level Drain status immediately,you need a rest to change your priest's spells, and another rest to remove fatigue and change back. Avid role-players may dislike this, and players who don't care about role-playing may find it pointless and annoying, particularly if this is after every encounter.
Of course, if any character with magic is hit by Level Drain, you have to reset their spell list, a potential pain if want the same setup as before the draining encounter.
Solutions:
Level Drain is by no means the most powerful effect in the game, however, it is easily the most frustrating. All the annoyance comes not from its effects on your characters, but from the post-effects and the lack of readily-accessible counter-play you can use.
Even the other significantly frustrating effects (e.g. Fear) have easy access to counters in combat (e.g. Remove Fear, Bard Song) which makes you feel like good for taking control of the situation. Level Drain doesn't have this and other than its debuff on characters seems explicitly designed to annoy and frustrate the player that it is used on, a horrible design for a game mechanic to have.
The first modification to the game to improve the effects is to have the game not forget memorised spells on being Level Drained. Remembering the spell selection and re-enabling the spells post-Drain instantly makes level drain less frustrating to deal with when it affects casters.
Another change that should be made is to fix Negative Plane Protection and Lesser Restoration. Both of these spells are designed to deal with one effect and have massive downsides where lower-level spells with the same intentions don't (Resist/Remove Fear, Remove Paralysis, Protection from Petrification etc.). Increasing the duration of the former (with possible duration/level scaling) and removing the fatigue on the latter removes the downsides that really had no reason to be there in the first place.
Making Negative Plane Protection worth using as a spell also removes the dependency on items to deal with monsters that use level drain.
Another possible change is to make each level drain effect have a duration. This means that although counter-play options are unchanged, it serves its role as merely a unique debuff rather than an annoying status that needs to be cured eventually. This would be similar to how Intelligence Reduced by Mindflayer stacks and wears off after a time.
However, this one I don't necessarily think is a great idea because Level Drain may be more associated with a permanent effect. I'll leave this here anyway for discussion.
Pre-replies to annoying stuff:
"TL;DR"
Reply - "l2read pls"
"You just want the game to be easier"
Reply - "If you read the post you'll actually note that I barely discuss the difficulty of fights and battles and focus on why Level Drain is frustrating to have used on your characters. My intention is to remove the annoying nature of the current implementation whilst keeping its main effects on the combat scenario to a minimum and adding counter-play options similar to what other spells have."
"But the DnD rules say...'
Reply - "This isn't about DnD rules. This is about the health of the game. As I said in another thread: The rules should change to improve the game, not the game being restricted to adhere to the rules."
Summary:
Level Drain is a mechanic that doubles as a minor debuff and a major annoyance without counter-play options. By evening the playing field between its poor counter options and the counter-play to other somewhat annoying game mechanics, the game can be made less frustrating while barely affecting the enemy encounters themselves.
NOTE: This is all my own opinion and thus you can argue against it. I welcome the discussion.
- Level Drain in BG2:EE. Keep it, remove it or change it?282 votes
- I think Level Drain should stay in the game implemented as-is currently.57.80%
- I think Level Drain should stay in the game, but the implementation should be modified in some way.34.40%
- I think Level Drain should be removed from the game entirely.4.61%
- I have no opinion on the implementation of Level Drain in BG2:EE.3.19%
2
Comments
Edit: Noticed that you said it doesn't have counters!? Negative plane protection is level 4 priest spell that protects from it, there are also armor(s) with protection against it, and scrolls.
Edit2: Since I started I might as well say how I killed vampires. Have 2-3 tanks that keep the vampires in check and those tanks should of course be protected from level drain. If someone does get drained Lesser Restoration is also low lvl priest spell so problem solved there.
Level Drain (LD) is one of the most annoying features. However, it is also an integral part of the game. Fighting the awful Vampires Den would be less terrifying if LD has a duration or is easy to remove. It has probably been implemented this way to emulate the bite of a vampire and subsequent infliction of vampirism. This is game-wise impossible (and undesirable because overpowering). So if LD is a substitute for vampirism, then removing this should not be free of (significant) charge (fatigue is considered 'significant' for this purpose). However, the nuisance of losing memorized spells could well be considered a bug: vampirism is a template added to a class and race (at least in 3rd edition DnD), therefore, no loss of class-specific abilities are to be expected.
So, yes, the game should be changed: losing memorized spells is a bug.
And, yes, level drain is a vital part of the game.
as an alternative how about putting it under the "normal" difficulty setting (i.e level drain removed after x time/resting but fatigued for x time regardless of resting)
Yes it's annoying, but that's part of the game.
Vampires can drain you vital force til you die (by loosing levels, you loose THAC0, HP and so on).
I guess you're also the kind of people who prefer that dead people auto-rez at the end of a fight instead of having to bring their corpse to a temple or casting a spell ?
That's why I hated Dragon age, amongst other things...
The only thing I would like to change is for the game to remember which spells you had memorise before you were drained. It's a pain having to reselect them again after getting restored. But it's not a huge issue as I try and make sure I don't get drained too often.
Also, negative plane protection in my game lasts a lot longer than 4 rounds. It lasts a long time (like 50+ rounds). I do have Spell Revisions mod installed so that may be changing it, but even in regular BG games I don't recall negative plane protection having a particularly short duration.
I do however agree with your very-well argued OP. I would not be against the P.f.NP to last longer (x rounds/lvl sounds good) and/or Restore Level Drain that would not fatigue the caster.
I am not favourable neither to the effects of a level-drain having a duration, nor to the spells erased being kept memorized until restoration. RP-wise, it makes little sense, the victim has reduced in level, jis abilities are chunked, his memory and concentration capabilities not as powerful and thus, what he has forgotten has been erased from his memory. He must memorize again.
That's my 2 cents whatever they are worth.
If anything I would change the Negative Plane Protection spell to last more than 5 rounds (the default in the game w/o any mods installed). It seems I cast this on my party before a fight and it expires sometimes even before the fight begins.
I would also like to see the restore spell restore the spells you had assigned to the slots you lost to level drain. Now you would probably need to rest to actually have them available again. Right now it just gives you empty slots and I find it annoying trying to remember what spells I had there before the level drain. This would be a convenience thing.
Don't you even have to level-up again and reroll your hit-dice?
if the code makes it permanent then it chucks everything out and you essentially "level up" again normally thus having new spell slots and everything (I think this is how BG handles it currently)
To change that you need to redo the code completely and add in something that remembers spell selection, not sure that's in the cards due to the contract signed by Overhaul.
However I am also for fixing Negative Plane Protection to x rounds/level and Lesser Restoration not fatigueing. However this may also fall into the category of cannot do due to contract.
BG2tweaks has an option to remove the Lesser Restoration fatigue and my guess is that it will stay there and not get incorporated into the game.
I wouldn't be opposed to having some other magical items added to the game, like, say, an amulet that only protects against Level Drain?
It is also worth noting that Level Drain, like any other weapon effect, goes through Stone Skins, but NOT protection from magical weapons. It doesn't last long either, but the cast is much faster than NPP so it could be used as an alternative in emergencies.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3401/remember-spell-decisions-after-level-drain-and-restoration
I'm not sure how it is currently, but I don't think normal vampires should drain more than 1 level per hit with more powerful 'named' vampires draining more. That still makes vampires fearsome opponents IMO.
It would also be nice if the game would remember which spells you had memorised for convenience's sake.
It seems people are choosing this option and then saying spells/abilities that counter/heal Level Drain should be modified - this obviously isn't the same as (and I paraphrase) "the implementation of Level Drain should be modified".
Btw Ulitharid intelligence drain make you lose remembered spells. Which is as annoying in a certain way.
Don't have to change anything else or it gets to the stage where you no longer have to worry about it at all
How about don't let your players get level drained? Thats a pretty easy solution there. Or did you not even think about that?
You sound like a child.
And in PnP there was no such thing as Lesser Restoration. Greater Restoration was named Restoration instead, and it only restored one lost level instead of all of them. Also, Restoration aged both the caster and the recipient by two years.