The HLA isn't an invention, they just grossly altered how a lot of the abilities work, and added several that are just completely ridiculous (UAI being the biggest offender). At level 24 Thieves gain the ability use scrolls to cast spells (and don't suffer a failure chance for spell levels 1-4), and Bards gain the ability to use mage-only items..that's the closest thing to BG's UAI that PnP 2nd Ed rogues get. (Thieves are also supposed to get a HLA that gives them Permanent non-detection, while Bards gain a new ability that decreases "cast" time for their bard song to 1 round instead of 3 rounds, causes it to last an additional 5 rounds, and allows it's use in direct combat). Both get the ability to craft potions, and bards get the ability to scribe scrolls of any spells they can cast.
Now, some changes were a nice compromise with the system, since the original effect for say Hardiness wouldn't have translated well (if you take lethal damage (-10 or less) from an attack, spell or death effect, you do not die and enter a suspended animation state for so many minutes, hours, days, weeks, months depending on level state that prevents you from dying of the effect. At some point before Hardiness expires, if you receive healing to bring your hp up to -9 or higher or buffs that would prevent your death, then you live when you awaken (someone casts finger of death and you fail the save, you go into the state for say 1 hour, if your allies can cast death ward or a similar protection on you so that it is effective when the hibernation ends you survive).
Changing it to a brief damage reduction is a nice compromise. The Death blow attacks on the other hand, are in some ways weaker, some ways stronger then they would be. In PnP you simply force a save vs death on every attack during the attack period of the ability if their HD is lower then yours. In BG you kill enemies up to a certain HD on hit, with no save. So..vs lower HD enemies (up to 12 HD), BG DB is better, but against higher HD enemies, the PnP version would be more useful since it would at least have the chance to work (a very high chance once you've thrown a few save debuffs on the target).
Ravenloft is NOT Forgotten Realms, it's special rules have no place at all in the Forgotten Realms since they're limited only to the Demi-plane of Dread, it includes much more folklore inspired variations of all "classic" monster types.
Forgotten Realms uses the standard core version of vampires which it has currently implemented PERFECTLY. There is no possible reason at all to alter Level Drain or Vampires since both effects are working AS INTENDED. In fact, the only alterations made, were to the spells and items to defend against it. If you have a problem with level drain, revert the buffs bioware made to Negative Plane protection (only blocks a single attack), and items that grant it (there aren't any in PnP that grant passive, constant level drain, just a use of Negative plane protection).
If a legitimate mechanic seems weak or wrong because Bioware goofed and made it's counter too powerful, then the obvious choice is to change the part that is wrong, i. e. the defenses against level draining.
That's like people saying you need to buff Beast-masters because Berserkers are obviously stronger...well of course they are, Berserkers are a broken PoS with WAY more immunities, and no downsides what so ever compared to its PnP version, while Beastmaster's are actually much closer to their PnP version (Technically they're supposed to gain an animal companion at creation, and additional companions as they level up, but since BG is pretty crappy for persistent summons (Animated Dead are also supposed to last until destroyed and you can literally take an army of them with you, as long as their total HD don't exceed twice your caster level), they gave them animal summoning instead, which is a decent compromise. Though I would've changed them to special abilities rather then priest spells, useable so once per day, at set levels, to closer replicate the effect of persistent companions (the familars don't work at all, since only natural beasts can answer the call, if BM were restricted to LN, TN, CN, it would sort of work...though...their first creature is usually a wolf, wild dog, or panther/mountain lion). Animal summon 1 at level 1, and additional uses every 3 levels, Animal summoning 2 at 4, and additional uses every 4 levels, Animal summoning 3 at 8, and additional uses every 8 levels.
Concerning the "CON" drain that people seems to want over a level drain...
Remember that if you are drained from your life force, yes you'll loose Hit points, but you'll also loose the ability to hit efficiently since you are drained.
Also, your intelligence also suffer from the drain since you are weakened.
Seeing how the stats works, it's far more interesting to drain level than stats since HP, number of spell you can memorize, THAC0 are affected by it...
Concerning the "CON" drain that people seems to want over a level drain...
Remember that if you are drained from your life force, yes you'll loose Hit points, but you'll also loose the ability to hit efficiently since you are drained.
Also, your intelligence also suffer from the drain since you are weakened.
Seeing how the stats works, it's far more interesting to drain level than stats since HP, number of spell you can memorize, THAC0 are affected by it...
This is one of the few challenging and potentially frustrating parts of combat in Shadows of Amn and you want to remove it? Countering these kinds of things is the essence of the game, removing them will just make it into a straightforward hack and slash vehicle for melee hitters (aka Diablo).
Actually...Faerun does allow 10th level spells. They just don't allow spells with a base spell level higher then 10 (11+) by Mystra's decree (aka, just like everywhere else, except Faerun acknowledges that higher level spells existed (Karsus's spell was 13th level, and mages of Netheril routinely tinkered and toyed with 10th, 11th and 12th level spells like modern wizards play around with 4th, 5th, and 6th level ones).
You've clearly not read the High Level rules book for Faerun. Other then setting specific fluff, it's almost word for word for the Core High Level DM guide Supplement.
And don't get me STARTED on everything legitimately wrong with BG's system, mechanics, kits etc etc etc that didn't have to be that way. I'd rip this system apart and rebuild it from the ground up if i had the scripting know-how to do it. At best with what I know, I can make a few data base tweaks to bring things closer to PnP in some areas. (Such as giving Crom Faeyr a ranged returning mode that causes an aoe, save or be stunned for 1 round on impact, as per it's PnP version, or allowing all rogues to place up to 3 points in Two weapon fighting while removing sword and shield style from them, letting mages place 1 point in single and two-handed weapon style, and removing two weapon style from priests, all as is proper to PnP...still can't figure out how to fix the problem with dual-classed fighter profs though...I can't find where things went wrong between BG1 and BG2).
There's nothing wrong with level drain, hell I pointed it out several posts ago that it was Bioware's cock-up boosting Negative plane protection so much that it largely De-fanged the threat of Level Drain.
You are missing the point. Level Drain works fine as is. Perfectly so. If anything needs changed, it's nerfing every item and class ability that gives negative plane protection, to only allow a 1/day use of the spell (which would be nerfed to it's proper only blocks a single attack status), and perhaps giving the blackguard and undead hunter an additional use every 4-5 levels or so.
I have no idea where you're getting I'm defending broken mechanics as legitimate. Every single post I've ever made has been trying to nudge things more in the direction of PnP, since there's no excusable reason that so much stuff was left unimplemented or implemented wrongly, when 95% of the mechanics could've easily been implemented faithfully. The Difference is, Level Drain, as currently implement is 100% correct. So Yes, there's not a damn thing wrong with level drain. Negative plane protection on the other hand is an overblown piece of garbage that barely resembles it's PnP incarnation, that however is NOT the subject of this post, trying to change level drain to work differently because some other mechanic is overpower/broken has rendered it a mere annoyance is the subject, and I'll defend the current implementation of level drain till the end, since it's one of the few things in game working 100% correctly.
So what I'm hearing is, "THESE rules changes are totally fine, but THAT rule change would RUIN the game!" Doesn't make sense.
In any event, for those who claim LD is some kind of unique and important challenge in BG2, what about the ridiculous prevention techniques, like "have my tank wield the Mace of Disruption - even though he's not even proficient with maces" or "have my berserker - whose kit I chose for this very specific purpose - go berserk" ? Totally ridiculous, and they utterly remove that special and unique challenge from the game, and they're totally in violation of PnP rules besides. You should be advocating - and I would agree with you - to remove every LD protection from the game, except for the NPP spell and *maybe* the Amulet of Power (the Shadow Thieves are battling vampires, so it makes sense they might find a tool to use against them).
I think you are missing several things. First, I don't think people are saying any rule "Changes" are fine. At least I am not. what I was saying was that the implementation of level drain on vampire attack is not a rule change. It is as represented in the rule books (DMG, MM1, MM2, and PHB??). There "Might" be other rule sets, but I don't think anyone has proven that "Upon hit, the characters looses X levels" has been proven as a 'Change'. The implementation of losing the order of spells may have been a little wonky, but this is hardly a "Change" in the rules.
As for your example(s) on how to prevent level drain. That is fine, if every single party member is a berzerker and Zerking isn't a limited number of uses type thing. But you can't control for that. Many is the time I have wanted my meat shield to be the one attacked, but the AI chose my caster or my thief. Level Drain, Level Drain, Level Drain. Boom. And to my knowledge, there is only one mace of disruption. And when do you get it?
So, sure, there are absolutely ways around Level drain, and there are supposed to be. But as far as frequency of use and ability to control it's effectiveness, I don't see any of those being terribly more over-powered than a party without them.
In the end, I see level drain and it's implementation in the game primarily a deterrent to one specific encounter. This encounter is not one single vampire, but a whole nest of them. If you get level drained in the first room, you either have to restore and deal with the lost spells and fatigue, or muscle through it. This is (in my opinion) the reason why it is there. If you don't have the amulet and the mace and a whole bunch of NPP spells, this assault of the entire complex will kick your butt. In other words, they present a problem that can only be solved in a limited number of ways and then provide you those ways. Thus they control the game. I see this as NO difference than what most DMs would do.
But then your argument has shifted over time. Before it was the sheer inconvenience of it all. Now you are saying that it isn't difficult to avoid because there are so many ways around it. Which is it?
Yes it's annoying that you have to rememorize spells. But whoever said vampire bites and lvl9 spells shouldn't be annoying to begin with? IMHO it fits the atmosphere.
I can see that you have issue with Level Drain. And I whole heartedly agree that you should be able to mod the game to fit your playing style. But based on the poll (135 to 2), I am going to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of the players believe that it is fine as it is. Even those that think it should be changed don't appear to want it cut back to the degree that you are suggesting, but merely fix the whole memorization thing.
but Hey, I am sure there are modders out there that think as you do. I sincerely hope that someone (or maybe yourself) can create a mod that makes the game more palatable to you.
@PlasticGolem, I guess I am not understanding your stance. I too played PnP where getting attacked by Vampires could lead to the party member being killed and returned as a Vampire, I fail to see how it is any different from the implementation in the game. The effect is the same (i.e. level loss, Hit point loss, spell loss, etc...) The way to reverse it remains the same (i.e. Restoration). And, while in PnP, a party member dying would lead to that character rising again, in BG, they merely are dead. Even the "rising" can be avoided if the party hauls the body out and performs the proper rituals and magic.
The standard way to reverse level loss in PnP is to regain the lost experience through adventuring -- something that you can't do in BG. Resoration is (at least in 1st Edition; I don't have a 2nd Edition PHB handy) a 7th level Cleric spell that would require an enormous sum of gold and/or great service performed for a cleric of compatible alignment in order to recieve. In BG, temples work like for-profit hopsitals, except at bargain basement prices (you can be raised from the dead for the price of a trivial magic item of the kind you can find lying around in chests and barrels throughout Athkatla) and they even offer handy inexpensive scrolls for your restorations-on-the-go. If your character is killed by a vampire, you can just resurrect them, no big deal: they aren't going to rise as a vampire. Except in one specific case.
But what others have suggested is removing any and all effects once the combat ends. And that would remove even the fear factor of the encounter. Just to be clear, the use of Vampires in the game is such that you avoid encountering them until you are ready to handle them.
I don't consider "fear" and "aggravation" to be the same thing. Level drain in PnP is scary because you can lose something very valuable: hard-won experience. Until your party has a high-level cleric or possibly great wealth and the favour of a temple, energy drain is hard to recover from. Dying from an energy drain attack means the near-certain loss of that character forever. In BG, the long-term consequences of energy drain attacks have been replaced by having to pay a small fine and do some tedious bookkeeping: a shift from the character losing something important to the player being made to do something annoying.
Unless you are playing with no reloads or limited reloads, there is nothing in the game that is scary because there are no consequences for failure. If you are playing limited reloads (reloading only on the death of the main character) then the permanent death of one of your party members is a consequence to be feared. On no reloads, the death of the main character is also to be feared. Apart from these and maybe the outcome of a handful of events on the way the story unfolds, nothing else is consequential because it doesn't affect the ultimate outcome of the game. Getting level drained means you have to do more tedious running around, but that just makes the game less fun, not more frightening.
@the_spyder, I'm saying that might be where the crossover is. Meaning that subtledoctor is correct in that there is mention of it, but not in its application.
No. There's a monster, which is a kind of vampire, and it does not drain levels, its special attack drains CON. It's not a misreading, it's not conflating the two effects. It's a legitimate variant.
Wait, here's a cite: Ravenloft, Realm of Terror, boxed set. Nosferatu Vampire. Bam - nerd reference power! I don't have access to those books, so can't confirm, but if you can find a copy then go ahead.
But, I don't know how this became an argument over legitimacy? (and by the way WTF is a "stirge??").
Stirges have been in D&D since 1st edition. They are like giant mosquitoes with bat wings. And they drain Con.
There was another vampire varient in 1st editon (yes, I am that old!) that had a detachable head that could fly around on little wings. I think they drained Con too.
Would changing the vampires in BG2 to some other varient make it a WORSE game? In my opinion, yes. Why? 1) It would reduce the games nostalgic appeal, and 2) I really don't get all this "it's frustating" stuff. They are perferctly easy to counter at that level - much easier than the low level Shadows and Wights I grew up on.
@PlasticGolem. I don't know about you but I never played in an adventure or a campaign where we encountered more than one vampire. Since you encounter a whole nest of them in BG2, I can kind of forgive them for making it a 'little' easier to recover from that. Just sayin.
As for "Fear" vs. "Aggravation" let me ask you this. The "intent" as I see it was to make an encounter in the game that you couldn't solve merely by potions of healing. They wanted to make something that caused you, the player to avoid tackling the encounter until you found one or both of two specific items in the game. And even then, they wanted it to be epic and difficult if you didn't handle it properly and tactically. They wanted to make it so that you couldn't simply steamroll your way through by Bull-rushing one monster, defeating it, casting a few healing spells and then bull-rushing the next. Rinse, lather repeat.
You may not like that or want that in the game, but that was the developer's intent. So, with their intent in mind, how would you do it differently so that it was less 'Aggravating' for the player yet still convey the "Simple combat and then healing won't do it"? And keep in mind that merely a series of keys that you had to find would end up being boring rather than epic. The game is primarily a combat heavy focus, so any solution should be combat.
So you might look at it like this. You seem to have a fear of the aggravation that the attack causes. How's that for logic?
Also, I really gotta disagree with you on your stance that "Unless you are playing no/limited reloads that 'Nothing' is scary in the game." Maybe TO YOU that is the case. For me, I don't enjoy reloading five million times merely to get one combat resolved to my satisfaction. I want to role play my way through an RPG (surprisingly) and so I want to be able to deal with most encounters in a linear manner. I think most players will at least understand that perspective. Therefore, I can be perfectly scared of an encounter that I know to be tough, even though I have the safety to be able to reload. You are making things way more black and white than they actually are just to make your point.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. Name three.
All I have asked is, since you are one of the few that want's it to change, shouldn't you be providing solutions? The rest of us are quite happy with how it works now. Why should we have to come up with solutions to your issue? Be creative.
@CTKnightOwl. I think it is kind of meant to suck. Therein lies the players' fear of it happening. Something that I think the nay-sayers are not understanding.
I don't "Enjoy" getting level drained. But I appreciate the reasons why it was implemented the way it was. And I would not have it changed because any fundamental reduction in the 'Annoyance' level would correspondingly reduce the effectiveness of the reasons it was implemented.
But let's say some different ability were implemented. Say instead of vampires, it was a host of fast moving and intelligent, spell casting Medusae. Give them the ability to remove or bypass "protection from petrification", throw in some recovery debuff that lasted the rest of the day after being turned back and you would have a similar issue that the nay-sayers would equally hate. But that is the whole reason behind it being there. It is supposed to be annoying. And therefore avoided.
I think I'm the only one who's not (obsessively) fussing about PnP rules, nor comparing how these rules were implemented in BG and just enjoyed the game as-is. :I
"As for "Fear" vs. "Aggravation" let me ask you this. The "intent" as I see it was to make an encounter in the game that you couldn't solve merely by potions of healing."
All I'm saying is, there are other ways to do that. Innumerable ways! Get creative! Of course, the game devs made their creative decision; but some people find it annoying. Those people, with tools like Shadowkeeper, Near Infinity, and DLCTEP etc., can substitute their own creativity. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
The INTENT is to incorporate a classic D&D monster with a classic D&D ability.
Compared to the original PnP game, Baldur's Gate goes very light on that sort of thing, which will start to throw draining monsters at you from 2nd level.
just remember the spell selection. no need to be memorized, they are lost. fatigue is fine. the whole mechanic is fine. JUST REMEMBER THE DAMN SPELL SELECTION! -.-
I never really had a problem with Level Drain myself when playing the BG saga. But then I was..., what's it called... 'meta-gaming'. I saved and reloaded a lot. As I have no experience with real roleplaying, I never really roleplayed my character either. I played BG for the story and characters, not for some set of rules.
Comments
Now, some changes were a nice compromise with the system, since the original effect for say Hardiness wouldn't have translated well (if you take lethal damage (-10 or less) from an attack, spell or death effect, you do not die and enter a suspended animation state for so many minutes, hours, days, weeks, months depending on level state that prevents you from dying of the effect. At some point before Hardiness expires, if you receive healing to bring your hp up to -9 or higher or buffs that would prevent your death, then you live when you awaken (someone casts finger of death and you fail the save, you go into the state for say 1 hour, if your allies can cast death ward or a similar protection on you so that it is effective when the hibernation ends you survive).
Changing it to a brief damage reduction is a nice compromise. The Death blow attacks on the other hand, are in some ways weaker, some ways stronger then they would be. In PnP you simply force a save vs death on every attack during the attack period of the ability if their HD is lower then yours. In BG you kill enemies up to a certain HD on hit, with no save. So..vs lower HD enemies (up to 12 HD), BG DB is better, but against higher HD enemies, the PnP version would be more useful since it would at least have the chance to work (a very high chance once you've thrown a few save debuffs on the target).
Ravenloft is NOT Forgotten Realms, it's special rules have no place at all in the Forgotten Realms since they're limited only to the Demi-plane of Dread, it includes much more folklore inspired variations of all "classic" monster types.
Forgotten Realms uses the standard core version of vampires which it has currently implemented PERFECTLY. There is no possible reason at all to alter Level Drain or Vampires since both effects are working AS INTENDED. In fact, the only alterations made, were to the spells and items to defend against it. If you have a problem with level drain, revert the buffs bioware made to Negative Plane protection (only blocks a single attack), and items that grant it (there aren't any in PnP that grant passive, constant level drain, just a use of Negative plane protection).
If a legitimate mechanic seems weak or wrong because Bioware goofed and made it's counter too powerful, then the obvious choice is to change the part that is wrong, i. e. the defenses against level draining.
That's like people saying you need to buff Beast-masters because Berserkers are obviously stronger...well of course they are, Berserkers are a broken PoS with WAY more immunities, and no downsides what so ever compared to its PnP version, while Beastmaster's are actually much closer to their PnP version (Technically they're supposed to gain an animal companion at creation, and additional companions as they level up, but since BG is pretty crappy for persistent summons (Animated Dead are also supposed to last until destroyed and you can literally take an army of them with you, as long as their total HD don't exceed twice your caster level), they gave them animal summoning instead, which is a decent compromise. Though I would've changed them to special abilities rather then priest spells, useable so once per day, at set levels, to closer replicate the effect of persistent companions (the familars don't work at all, since only natural beasts can answer the call, if BM were restricted to LN, TN, CN, it would sort of work...though...their first creature is usually a wolf, wild dog, or panther/mountain lion). Animal summon 1 at level 1, and additional uses every 3 levels, Animal summoning 2 at 4, and additional uses every 4 levels, Animal summoning 3 at 8, and additional uses every 8 levels.
Remember that if you are drained from your life force, yes you'll loose Hit points, but you'll also loose the ability to hit efficiently since you are drained.
Also, your intelligence also suffer from the drain since you are weakened.
Seeing how the stats works, it's far more interesting to drain level than stats since HP, number of spell you can memorize, THAC0 are affected by it...
Remember that if you are drained from your life force, yes you'll loose Hit points, but you'll also loose the ability to hit efficiently since you are drained.
Also, your intelligence also suffer from the drain since you are weakened.
Seeing how the stats works, it's far more interesting to drain level than stats since HP, number of spell you can memorize, THAC0 are affected by it...
This is the kind of personal preference that is better adressed with a mod.
You've clearly not read the High Level rules book for Faerun. Other then setting specific fluff, it's almost word for word for the Core High Level DM guide Supplement.
And don't get me STARTED on everything legitimately wrong with BG's system, mechanics, kits etc etc etc that didn't have to be that way. I'd rip this system apart and rebuild it from the ground up if i had the scripting know-how to do it. At best with what I know, I can make a few data base tweaks to bring things closer to PnP in some areas. (Such as giving Crom Faeyr a ranged returning mode that causes an aoe, save or be stunned for 1 round on impact, as per it's PnP version, or allowing all rogues to place up to 3 points in Two weapon fighting while removing sword and shield style from them, letting mages place 1 point in single and two-handed weapon style, and removing two weapon style from priests, all as is proper to PnP...still can't figure out how to fix the problem with dual-classed fighter profs though...I can't find where things went wrong between BG1 and BG2).
There's nothing wrong with level drain, hell I pointed it out several posts ago that it was Bioware's cock-up boosting Negative plane protection so much that it largely De-fanged the threat of Level Drain.
You are missing the point. Level Drain works fine as is. Perfectly so. If anything needs changed, it's nerfing every item and class ability that gives negative plane protection, to only allow a 1/day use of the spell (which would be nerfed to it's proper only blocks a single attack status), and perhaps giving the blackguard and undead hunter an additional use every 4-5 levels or so.
I have no idea where you're getting I'm defending broken mechanics as legitimate. Every single post I've ever made has been trying to nudge things more in the direction of PnP, since there's no excusable reason that so much stuff was left unimplemented or implemented wrongly, when 95% of the mechanics could've easily been implemented faithfully. The Difference is, Level Drain, as currently implement is 100% correct. So Yes, there's not a damn thing wrong with level drain. Negative plane protection on the other hand is an overblown piece of garbage that barely resembles it's PnP incarnation, that however is NOT the subject of this post, trying to change level drain to work differently because some other mechanic is overpower/broken has rendered it a mere annoyance is the subject, and I'll defend the current implementation of level drain till the end, since it's one of the few things in game working 100% correctly.
As for your example(s) on how to prevent level drain. That is fine, if every single party member is a berzerker and Zerking isn't a limited number of uses type thing. But you can't control for that. Many is the time I have wanted my meat shield to be the one attacked, but the AI chose my caster or my thief. Level Drain, Level Drain, Level Drain. Boom. And to my knowledge, there is only one mace of disruption. And when do you get it?
So, sure, there are absolutely ways around Level drain, and there are supposed to be. But as far as frequency of use and ability to control it's effectiveness, I don't see any of those being terribly more over-powered than a party without them.
In the end, I see level drain and it's implementation in the game primarily a deterrent to one specific encounter. This encounter is not one single vampire, but a whole nest of them. If you get level drained in the first room, you either have to restore and deal with the lost spells and fatigue, or muscle through it. This is (in my opinion) the reason why it is there. If you don't have the amulet and the mace and a whole bunch of NPP spells, this assault of the entire complex will kick your butt. In other words, they present a problem that can only be solved in a limited number of ways and then provide you those ways. Thus they control the game. I see this as NO difference than what most DMs would do.
But then your argument has shifted over time. Before it was the sheer inconvenience of it all. Now you are saying that it isn't difficult to avoid because there are so many ways around it. Which is it?
Yes it's annoying that you have to rememorize spells.
But whoever said vampire bites and lvl9 spells shouldn't be annoying to begin with? IMHO it fits the atmosphere.
but Hey, I am sure there are modders out there that think as you do. I sincerely hope that someone (or maybe yourself) can create a mod that makes the game more palatable to you.
I don't consider "fear" and "aggravation" to be the same thing. Level drain in PnP is scary because you can lose something very valuable: hard-won experience. Until your party has a high-level cleric or possibly great wealth and the favour of a temple, energy drain is hard to recover from. Dying from an energy drain attack means the near-certain loss of that character forever. In BG, the long-term consequences of energy drain attacks have been replaced by having to pay a small fine and do some tedious bookkeeping: a shift from the character losing something important to the player being made to do something annoying.
Unless you are playing with no reloads or limited reloads, there is nothing in the game that is scary because there are no consequences for failure. If you are playing limited reloads (reloading only on the death of the main character) then the permanent death of one of your party members is a consequence to be feared. On no reloads, the death of the main character is also to be feared. Apart from these and maybe the outcome of a handful of events on the way the story unfolds, nothing else is consequential because it doesn't affect the ultimate outcome of the game. Getting level drained means you have to do more tedious running around, but that just makes the game less fun, not more frightening.
There was another vampire varient in 1st editon (yes, I am that old!) that had a detachable head that could fly around on little wings. I think they drained Con too.
Would changing the vampires in BG2 to some other varient make it a WORSE game? In my opinion, yes. Why? 1) It would reduce the games nostalgic appeal, and 2) I really don't get all this "it's frustating" stuff. They are perferctly easy to counter at that level - much easier than the low level Shadows and Wights I grew up on.
As for "Fear" vs. "Aggravation" let me ask you this. The "intent" as I see it was to make an encounter in the game that you couldn't solve merely by potions of healing. They wanted to make something that caused you, the player to avoid tackling the encounter until you found one or both of two specific items in the game. And even then, they wanted it to be epic and difficult if you didn't handle it properly and tactically. They wanted to make it so that you couldn't simply steamroll your way through by Bull-rushing one monster, defeating it, casting a few healing spells and then bull-rushing the next. Rinse, lather repeat.
You may not like that or want that in the game, but that was the developer's intent. So, with their intent in mind, how would you do it differently so that it was less 'Aggravating' for the player yet still convey the "Simple combat and then healing won't do it"? And keep in mind that merely a series of keys that you had to find would end up being boring rather than epic. The game is primarily a combat heavy focus, so any solution should be combat.
So you might look at it like this. You seem to have a fear of the aggravation that the attack causes. How's that for logic?
Also, I really gotta disagree with you on your stance that "Unless you are playing no/limited reloads that 'Nothing' is scary in the game." Maybe TO YOU that is the case. For me, I don't enjoy reloading five million times merely to get one combat resolved to my satisfaction. I want to role play my way through an RPG (surprisingly) and so I want to be able to deal with most encounters in a linear manner. I think most players will at least understand that perspective. Therefore, I can be perfectly scared of an encounter that I know to be tough, even though I have the safety to be able to reload. You are making things way more black and white than they actually are just to make your point.
All I have asked is, since you are one of the few that want's it to change, shouldn't you be providing solutions? The rest of us are quite happy with how it works now. Why should we have to come up with solutions to your issue? Be creative.
Mace of Disruption +2
Berserker Rage
Negative Plane Protection
Protection from Undead scrolls
and that's just in Shadows of Amn
Unfortunately, level drain is only a pain if you don't see it coming
I say leave it. It sucks but it is what it is
I don't "Enjoy" getting level drained. But I appreciate the reasons why it was implemented the way it was. And I would not have it changed because any fundamental reduction in the 'Annoyance' level would correspondingly reduce the effectiveness of the reasons it was implemented.
But let's say some different ability were implemented. Say instead of vampires, it was a host of fast moving and intelligent, spell casting Medusae. Give them the ability to remove or bypass "protection from petrification", throw in some recovery debuff that lasted the rest of the day after being turned back and you would have a similar issue that the nay-sayers would equally hate. But that is the whole reason behind it being there. It is supposed to be annoying. And therefore avoided.
I agree and say leave it as is.
Compared to the original PnP game, Baldur's Gate goes very light on that sort of thing, which will start to throw draining monsters at you from 2nd level.
JUST REMEMBER THE DAMN SPELL SELECTION! -.-