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About dual-classing...

When you dual-class, does the game's XP cap take your old class's XP into consideration, or is it just your new class?
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  • ScytheKnightScytheKnight Member Posts: 220
    It does take the old class into consideration, however there's an exponential XP between levels, especially at higher levels.
  • ljboljbo Member Posts: 177
    The XP cap is on the sum of the experience of the old and of the new class in BG2 iirc. Thus it should be the same in BG:EE.
  • keltarkingkeltarking Member Posts: 53
    I was afraid of that. Alright, thanks.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    In the Black Pits your maximum Exp varies depending on your active class, so dual classing into a thief leaves you with the BG:EE cap of 161k or so, whilst dual classing into a Mage or something gives you a cap of about 500k.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Dual-classing is much less beneficial in BG1 compared to 2 due to lower amounts of XP floating around and the fairly low level cap.

    As @ScytheKnight says there is an exponential for many classes though. In some cases this means that very good combos are possible from a cost/benefit perspective. Fighter 7/druid 9 loses 1 level and a single level 5 spell compared to druid 10 while gaining fighter HP, Thac0 and grandmastery.

    On balance dual-classing is easier and allows for better combos in BG2 though. Multiclass probably does the job better at BG1 levels.
  • keltarkingkeltarking Member Posts: 53
    What about thief to mage? I was pondering dual-classing Imoen at 7, like she does in the canon story. Can she still hit lvl 8 as a mage?
  • MykraMykra Member Posts: 252

    What about thief to mage? I was pondering dual-classing Imoen at 7, like she does in the canon story. Can she still hit lvl 8 as a mage?

    She can hit Thief/Mage levels of 7/8. It should be 40K Thief xp, and then 80k Mage xp IIRC.
  • keltarkingkeltarking Member Posts: 53
    Awesome, thanks.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited January 2013
    Thanks to the exponential level progression mentioned earlier, if you dual sort of early (by level 5 or 6 or so, depending on class) you can often still reach the same level in your second class that you could even as a single class character.
    Post edited by TJ_Hooker on
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    expo..expo... my head hurts when I try to spell that...
  • hammernanvilhammernanvil Member Posts: 98
    Unless your a min/maxer you can dual class at any time and still benefit! even if you dualed a fighter at lvl3 to thief, your still gonna be a way better thief than a regular thief, because you can have grandmastery in any weapon... I don't know why everyone makes a big deal about when to do it...
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited January 2013

    Unless your a min/maxer you can dual class at any time and still benefit! even if you dualed a fighter at lvl3 to thief, your still gonna be a way better thief than a regular thief, because you can have grandmastery in any weapon... I don't know why everyone makes a big deal about when to do it...

    @hammernanvil

    For fighters it's about the extra attacks you get.

    If you wait till 13 you max that out, and I've made yourself a Grandmaster in something PLUS you've maxed out a fighting style.

    So the optimal level to dual for a fighter is 13 in BG2. And there's really no point in ever going past that level unless you really want to mix up HLA's but...the other classes have better ones than Fighters get.

    But if you're just running BG1 / don't care about that, Level 7 is a great time to dual for the extra 1/2 attack.

    OR 6 for the extra Prof point depending on how many levels you need open for the second class.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited January 2013
    Mykra said:

    What about thief to mage? I was pondering dual-classing Imoen at 7, like she does in the canon story. Can she still hit lvl 8 as a mage?

    She can hit Thief/Mage levels of 7/8. It should be 40K Thief xp, and then 80k Mage xp IIRC.
    @keltarking : Caveat: That hitting of 7/8 will happen roughly just before you go into the final battle. Imoen will be without thief skills for pretty much the entire second half of the game if you do this foolish thing.

    I'm always scratching and shaking my head at all these people who swear by how wonderful dual classing makes characters at the end of the game. It's like they care about step 10 in a 10-step process, and don't care at all about gameplay experience in steps 1-9.

    Imoen dualed at level 7 is going to make her useless dead weight for the entire rest of the game up to Sarevok, and maybe for parts of the TotSC content. And you'll need another thief if you want to do Durlag's Tower. And without cheating, I don't think there are any other thieves with the disarm skill you need, unless you've kept Monty as your main traps and locks guy since leaving Candlekeep.

    Dualing in BG1 is bad, bad, bad.

  • On the other hand, dualing Imoen is one of the few ways to get a good-aligned mage who's not Dynaheir. That said, level 7 is way too late to being doing it. You can dual Imoen at level 5 and still have her be capable of filling all your lock picking and trap opening needs with a little liquid assistance. That gets you her thieving abilities back at 50k exp as opposed to 130k.
  • hammernanvilhammernanvil Member Posts: 98

    Mykra said:

    What about thief to mage? I was pondering dual-classing Imoen at 7, like she does in the canon story. Can she still hit lvl 8 as a mage?

    She can hit Thief/Mage levels of 7/8. It should be 40K Thief xp, and then 80k Mage xp IIRC.
    @keltarking : Caveat: That hitting of 7/8 will happen roughly just before you go into the final battle. Imoen will be without thief skills for pretty much the entire second half of the game if you do this foolish thing.

    I'm always scratching and shaking my head at all these people who swear by how wonderful dual classing makes characters at the end of the game. It's like they care about step 10 in a 10-step process, and don't care at all about gameplay experience in steps 1-9.

    Imoen dualed at level 7 is going to make her useless dead weight for the entire rest of the game up to Sarevok, and maybe for parts of the TotSC content. And you'll need another thief if you want to do Durlag's Tower. And without cheating, I don't think there are any other thieves with the disarm skill you need, unless you've kept Monty as your main traps and locks guy since leaving Candlekeep.

    Dualing in BG1 is bad, bad, bad.

    Dual classing is wonderful, the only problem is everyone is concerned about milking both classes, it wasnt originally intended to be that way.
  • lDanielHolmlDanielHolm Member Posts: 225
    Dualling in BG1 is most definitely NOT "bad, bad, bad".

    Imoen is very good when dual-classed precisely because she becomes a mage. If you play her right, and dual-class her around levels 5 or 6 (not 7, that's far too late in the game), you can easily have her regain her Thief skills for all of Chapter 5 and beyond. (If you dual-class her at level 5, you might even have them back for Cloakwood.) She'll even make the highest possible mage level in BG1: 9th. That won't happen until very late, but it's still good.

    Shar-Teel is another example; even if she becomes a Thief, with her Fighter levels backing her up, she is a brilliant backstabber. Thieves level quickly, too, so it's not like she's out them for long, but even without them, she has the third-highest Str score of any NPC.

    And since you're in control of her from Thief 1, you get to spend her Thief points as you see fit. She was my Find Trap specialist in Durlag's.

    Dualling isn't something you should do if you don't know what you're doing, as you can easily end up with a lot of wasted effort with nothing to show for it, but if, say, you pick up Shar-Teel and Imoen and dual them at roughly the same time, you're not short a Thief (though she won't have Imoen's skill at first), you have a much better backstabber than Imoen, and you get a Mage with literally perfect physical stats: 18 Dex, 16 Con--and the only non-specialized Mage in the game, aside from a possibility in CHARNAME.

    Dual-classing is all about short-term loss for long-term gain, yes, but Imoen ended up around a level behind Edwin when I dualled her at 6. So what if she doesn't have her Thief skills back until the Cloakwood Mines? Shar-Teel took care of that well enough, until I replaced her with Coran.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,419
    I love dualing in BG1, do it all the time. Especially, start as fighter, and at level THREE switch to Cleric or mage. That gives you five weapon proficiencies, three slots in one weapon (usually bow or sling, depending on what you're dualing to), and a base of thirty hit points plus const bonus. That's a great starting point for a spell caster. And they will get the old class back quickly, at fourth level. And being only 4000 XP behind a single class character they are basically completely equal for the entire game. Makes for a very satisfyingly tough character in BG1.
  • moopymoopy Member Posts: 938
    7 Kensai / 8 Mage

    or 6 Berserker / 9 Thief with grand mastery in staves and the staff of striking is pretty cool.
  • hammernanvilhammernanvil Member Posts: 98
    edited January 2013
    On my current Char, at level 3Fighter I went to the bastalisk area with 1 scroll of pretification, cleared the area and was level 6, dual classed to thief, went north and killed spiders and mages, am level 5 thief now. this is all less than 2 hours... hardly as bad as some people claim.. And I have not even been to nashkel mines yet.
  • moopymoopy Member Posts: 938
    @hammernanvil

    I agree though I try to save ALL the easy xp until after I've dual classed.

    Basilisk area (22,800 xp)

    Named Siren west of High Hedge (5,000 xp)

    Drink a potion of absorption and take out the flesh golem cave (6000 xp)

    Sirens before the flesh golem cave using the Greenstone Amulet (12,000 xp)

    Sirens and Priest in the temple to the east of Beregost (After doing the quest with him) (11,000 xp).

    Kill golems and the mage at High Hedge (After buying everything you will ever want from him) (7,000 xp)

    That is a real quick easy 63,800 xp. Almost Thief level 8 if you dualed at 7, and you already have all your levels back if you dualed at 6 to Thief. So yeah it is pretty easy to powergame dual class, I don't know why people make such a big deal about how hard it is.

    This is true with going to level 13 fighter before dual classing in BG2, there are tons of quests you can have already done and ready to turn in before you dual class and isn't that difficult to get your levels back with.
  • keltarkingkeltarking Member Posts: 53
    About the min/max thing... I admit that I've had my bit of fun with it, especially in BG2. I know I'm repeating myself but given the lack of decent thieves in the game, I would often roll a fighter and DC him to thief upon hitting level 9 (no more fighter hp rolls, but still 1 thief hp roll at 10) and dumping Yoshimo (he's great but you can't keep him).

    Anyway, I'll see if I can manage to get Imoen's lockpick and trap finding to 100 each before level 7, those are the only two skills I really use, aside from that one time pickpocketing Algernon's Cloak, for which I use Garrick anyway. lol

    Side note: Dual classing is AWESOME in Icewind Dale, I love rolling three beastly fighters and DCing them into a thief, a cleric and a mage (again, upon hitting level 9). :D
  • Anyway, I'll see if I can manage to get Imoen's lockpick and trap finding to 100 each before level 7, those are the only two skills I really use, aside from that one time pickpocketing Algernon's Cloak, for which I use Garrick anyway.

    You're not going to get Imoen's lockpick and trap finding to 100 each before level 7. On the other hand, at level 5 you can have lockpick 70 and find traps 90. With find traps 90, she can *detect* any trap in the game, and if it's something that she can't *disarm* with that skill, you can have her drink a potion of perception to boost the skill up enough. Likewise, with lockpick 70, any lock she can't open can either be opened with a Knock spell, or you can have her drink a potion of Mastery Thievery and pick it herself.

    Incidentally, dualling Imoen before level 7 Thief lets her reach level 9 Mage instead of level 8, which means a 5th level spell slot.
  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    Kaigen said:

    Incidentally, dualling Imoen before level 7 Thief lets her reach level 9 Mage instead of level 8, which means a 5th level spell slot.

    I agree. I like to dual Imoen at level 6 to get the most from her thief levels while still getting a level 5th spell. I just wait to go to Durlag Tower until she regain her thief levels, usually in Chapter 5.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    When to dual-class Imoen really depends on how you intend to use her in your game.

    Is it just a one-shot BG:EE game? (And if you're continuing in BG2 do you care about mirroring her BG2 levels? If you do, then that decides it for you: Thief level 7.)

    Do you have another Thief or Thieves in the party, amongst whom to distribute the lockpicking and find/remove traps duties? What are your plans for distributing Thief skills for the party?

    Which Thief skills do you want Imoen mainly to have? Just locks/traps? Focus on just backstabbing? Maybe as trap specialist who also sets traps? As a pickpocket? Etc.

    Do you plan on doing Durlag's? If so, is Immy your only Thief?

  • keltarkingkeltarking Member Posts: 53
    I ended up making two saves, one with and one without DCing Imoen. Currently playing the DC branch, and decided to try out Alora a replacement thief, I kinda like her. She makes an even better archer than Imoen. :)
  • LuigirulesLuigirules Member Posts: 419
    I console'd around to grab Alora right at the start of the game, and I love her. She's adorable. Of my current party of Faldorn, Skie, Quayle, Tiax, and Alora, she's easily the cutest and least annoying.
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited January 2013

    Mykra said:

    What about thief to mage? I was pondering dual-classing Imoen at 7, like she does in the canon story. Can she still hit lvl 8 as a mage?

    She can hit Thief/Mage levels of 7/8. It should be 40K Thief xp, and then 80k Mage xp IIRC.
    @keltarking : Caveat: That hitting of 7/8 will happen roughly just before you go into the final battle. Imoen will be without thief skills for pretty much the entire second half of the game if you do this foolish thing.

    I'm always scratching and shaking my head at all these people who swear by how wonderful dual classing makes characters at the end of the game. It's like they care about step 10 in a 10-step process, and don't care at all about gameplay experience in steps 1-9.

    Imoen dualed at level 7 is going to make her useless dead weight for the entire rest of the game up to Sarevok, and maybe for parts of the TotSC content. And you'll need another thief if you want to do Durlag's Tower. And without cheating, I don't think there are any other thieves with the disarm skill you need, unless you've kept Monty as your main traps and locks guy since leaving Candlekeep.

    Dualing in BG1 is bad, bad, bad.

    Best solution is to dual Imoen as soon as she has (around) 100% in traps (so by level 4 or 5 maximum).

    Then, in the original game, she could be dualed to a conjurer (yes yes yes, and we're still waiting this to be fixed) or to a mage in this BG:EE.

    This makes Imoen a great character, even in BG1.
    She'll have her traps for Naskel, CandleKeep catacombs and Durlag's tower.
    For the mines, traps before Davaeorn can be disarmed by Coran + potion of perception.

  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    On my first ever playthrough, around 12 years ago, I managed to complete the game with Imoen dualled at level 2 as my only thief.

    I didn't have TOSC yet at the time, so it was doable because there was no Durlag's Tower.

    I used mainly the Knock spell to open the difficult locks and I removed most traps the hard way, i.e. by having the party member with more HP step on them :-)

    Also traps and locks didn't give any XP in vanilla BG1, so there was no real advantage in using a thief instead of, for example, a mage spell or a high strength party member to open a lock.

    It is feasible even now, if you just avoid Durlag's Tower, but I would not recommend it :D
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    dual classing is awesome

    why have a squishy mage when you can an 80+ HP mage?
    why waste a slot for thieves that don't get much better after lvl 7, when you can have a thief>cleric/mage/fighter?
    want some beefy backstabs kensai>thief!

    the list goes on and there are literally no downsides, it's about being as creative as you can. it is massively OP though
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    mjs said:

    dual classing is awesome

    why have a squishy mage when you can an 80+ HP mage?
    why waste a slot for thieves that don't get much better after lvl 7, when you can have a thief>cleric/mage/fighter?
    want some beefy backstabs kensai>thief!

    the list goes on and there are literally no downsides, it's about being as creative as you can. it is massively OP though

    I wouldn't say there are no downsides - the main downside is that often for the bulk of the game you don't have the very things you are dual classing to get - and the more important having these things at a relatively high level is to you - the longer you go without them -

    for instance it takes a considerable amount of time to get high levels of thief skills and the more levels of thief you take to do so the longer you will have to go without them before getting them back. Yes you can adjust the party to accomodate that but that may mean another party member doesn't get the full attention to his own build he/she might otherwise get if he didn't have to sit in for the dual classer for half the game - after which he is no longer needed for those duties.




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