How to you play evil? (Possible spoiler alert)
the_spyder
Member Posts: 5,018
So, after many years and play-throughs of the game, I have finally decided to actually play through with an Evil party. In the past, whenever I have tried to do that, I always ended up giving up because of what was necessary (In my view) to maintain a low reputation. But I plan on pushing through this time.
On the whole, I don't like playing stupid evil. You know the kind of thing where, instead of sounding EVIL, you end up sounding like a spoiled and petulant teenager. But I realize that the more things you do in the game in performance of the plot line, the more you gain positive reputation points. Now, I realize that I could simply spike some commoner far away from the beaten path and thus reduce my rep. But without a real reason to do it, that just feels like meta-gaming your rep.
So I wanted to get ideas from the rest of you on what you do and what RP rationalization you use. If it helps, my Charname is a Half-Orc Fighter/thief. His main philosophy is basically being a Darwinist. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And if you are weak, you deserve to die. (Ok, I am sure that good old Chuck is rolling in his grave over that interpretation of his teachings, but hey...).
On the whole, I don't like playing stupid evil. You know the kind of thing where, instead of sounding EVIL, you end up sounding like a spoiled and petulant teenager. But I realize that the more things you do in the game in performance of the plot line, the more you gain positive reputation points. Now, I realize that I could simply spike some commoner far away from the beaten path and thus reduce my rep. But without a real reason to do it, that just feels like meta-gaming your rep.
So I wanted to get ideas from the rest of you on what you do and what RP rationalization you use. If it helps, my Charname is a Half-Orc Fighter/thief. His main philosophy is basically being a Darwinist. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And if you are weak, you deserve to die. (Ok, I am sure that good old Chuck is rolling in his grave over that interpretation of his teachings, but hey...).
Post edited by the_spyder on
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Heck, not even the ending (in ToB) cares what you actually DO in the world, only what you select in a series of certain dialogues at the end of the game.
That being said, the entire plot of the game is unfortunately more or less "do-goody" in its design. First you're stopping a coup in Baldur's Gate; next, you foil a mad wizard's apotheosis that would kill a whole bunch of elves in the process - both acts that could be considered "good deeds", regardless of how you get there. ToB alone is a bit ambiguous with the whole Bhaalspawn War and all.
So basically, you have little choice in the main quest line. The only thing you can do as an "evil" person is go on mindless killing sprees, and be rude and mean to people in quest dialogues - which more often than not will result in them simply leaving, and not in some second path option for the quest.
There are a few quests where you have different ways to go about things, like, say, buying something off an NPC vs. killing him for it. But even then it mostly does not have any sort of impact, only very rarely affecting your reputation (if even at all).
I suppose it shows the game's age. Nowadays they'd add another layer of complexity to be sure, but back then you just put in a rudimentary reputation system and were done with it.
The whole game is quite good-biased to begin with anyway. Take classes like Ranger and Paladin, for example, which not only HAVE to be good aligned, but even lose their abilities if they don't stick to it. Only with EE's Blackguard has there been a semblance of a balance in class/kit choice for evil characters.
I guess it's in the spirit of D&D that you are all out for an adventure, not a psychotic spree - which ironically is about the only reliable way in BG to adhere to a low reputation...
As for 'managing' my rep... actually not going to go there, just gonna roll with how things play out.
It's also important to remember that the actions of Evil PCs may still lead to positive outcomes, and there's nothing wrong with that - killing Sarevok also prevents a war with Amn, but that's not the reason you're hunting him. You purge Durlag's Tower because you want treasure and magical items, not because you care about the fate of the trapped souls within. You kill Bassilus because the Beregost Temple is offering 5000 gold to stop him, and you need that money, but by doing so you're also saving a town from an undead invasion.
A Smart Evil PC returns Joia's Flamedance Ring hoping for a reward; kills Bassilus for the money; finds a book for Firebead because he's a powerful mage who's already predisposed to help you; is honest with Oublek at Nashkel because you want information on potential bounties, etc. These are, broadly speaking, "good" actions which increase their reputation, but your character is committing these deeds for the sole purpose of furthering your own agenda. To not do them out of spite or ignorance is simply an act of self-sabotage.
That said, a Smart Evil PC also kills Drizzt, Laskal, Winski (because he's Sarevok's mentor and it's payback for Gorion), Petrina's cat (for Bhelen's reward) and the Dryad at the Falls (because if she can't defend herself, she's weak and deserves death); kills the "thugs" Silke pays you to eliminate, then Silke herself when the deception is revealed; recruits Dorn and Viconia despite their problematic reputations, steals the Idol of Kozah, robs the noblewoman at the Helm and Cloak, etc. When given a choice between profit and reputation increase, the Smart Evil PC will always choose profit unless the authorities are closing in on you, in which case you throw them a bone by fishing a dead child out of an ankheg pit. Hey, you were clearing the place out anyway since there's a guy in Beregost who buys them by the armload, might as well dump the kid in his father's lap on the way.
It may also help to consider that Even Evil Has Standards. Just because you're Evil doesn't mean you have to butcher people mindlessly, or commit acts you find distasteful just for the sake of Being Evil.
I've played only one evil game, and it was ages ago. But I remember it well. I soloed a NE half-eleven Cleric/Mage and it was actually kind of fascinating to do. I definitely went the 'smart evil' route.
The rule of thumb was basically that the fellow was going to do anything and everything he could to benefit himself, regardless of the cost to anyone else. He wasn't out to inflict harm for no reason other than sadism, or to instill fear, dominate others, etc. Instead he always had an objective, a goal to advance himself in some way. And he was pretty diabolical about it. He had 18 Int.
So one example that I can recall, is that he completed Prism's quest, but...
He turned in the emeralds. Got paid 300 gold. But then he charmed Oublek. And then he made Oublek attack Minsc. Who killed him. The Nashkel guards then killed Minsc.
And my Ceric/Mage who was watching the whole thing while invisible gathered up the emeralds plus the purse of 2700 gold Oublek carries, and off he went with a spring in his step and a whistle.
Mwaha!
The fact of the matter remains, the whole system is very one-dimensional, and that is pretty much exactly what D&D's alignment system was made to prevent. Sure you could argue that a "smart evil" character wouldn't mind a glorious reputation, if only for the fact that vendors will charge less - but that's not what the whole good/evil system in D&D is about.
But yeah, it's possible to RP most alignments to some degree, it just doesn't really play well with the game's system of it because it lacks complexity.
Some examples include siding with Silke. You lose out on a quarter staff +1 and the chance to recruit Garrick, but you do get a -2 hit to Rep.
Lena and Samuel. Demand the ring from Lena and then carry the body to the waiting flaming fist instead of bringing it to FAI. You get more by dragging the body back to the FAI, but you also don't get the +1 Rep
Kill Firebead for giving you a stupid book. (You lived in Candlekeep, if you wanted to read the book, you would of done so in the library). This actually gets you more of a reward and a nice Rep hit.
Lie to Oublek, to get some coin, (you can return a bounty after this still) and bring him Brag's dead body. Hunt down Prism and kill him, sell the emeralds because you get more coin than returning the bounty. You get less gp going this route, you don't get the long sword +1 or the xp from Greywolf but you also don't get any Rep bonuses.
I get what you are saying. But there are actually negative consequences to not playing your alignment (other than simply the RP heck of it all). If you rep is high enough when you dream, you get the 'Good Path' scripts and abilities. Also, as has been stated, 'Evil' party members will leave if you get to be too high in rep. Since my entire party is evil, I don't want to have to tread water without them should I accidentally save the wrong maiden. I know the game well, so I have a pretty good idea of what will give a rep boost and what won't. And I don't want to Meta-game that way.
An example I would use is This guy's ring that I found. I found it on his corpse (being vague so as to not be too spoilerish) and returned it to his widow. My choices of dialogue were something along the lines of "You keep the ring, as a memento of his loss" or "I am keeping the ring as payment for my trouble". The first response netted me 800 XP. The second got me thrown out of the house, and just felt petty. But the first one felt very anti-intuitive from my RP perspective as well. And sans any monetary remunerations, I really had no reason to give her the ring. I could sell it for more than she was offering.
And I have no problems coming up with rationalizations for the game. BG1 is all about payback for killing Gorion and killing the Iron Throne. BG2 is all about showing a certain wizard who not to mess with. And ToB has it's own motivations. Even returning something like Joli's ring, I can almost swallow. Get paid for your time and trouble. But it seems like quite a lot of it is written either altruistic or stupid evil. No middle ground.
There's a basic trade-off built into the BG system: if you're doing a Good RP, you get more XP, gold, etc. And if you're doing an Evil RP, you get the most powerful NPCs in the game. Edwin and The Man From Larswood are the supreme spellcasters in BG:EE (Neera can outperform them, but not without significant and potentially fatal risks); Dorn is physically the strongest and has all sorts of benefits thanks to his blackguard powers; Kagain regenerates; Viconia has both high wisdom and extremely high dexterity; Shar-Teel can be a more useful thief than Imoen.
So yes, an evil playthrough might take a bit longer to hit its stride, but even if you forfeit every "good" reward in the game you'll still hit the XP cap eventually, and you'll do it with the most formidable killers on the Sword Coast at your side. And really, it makes sense that a group of villains don't get the exact same reward as a group of heroes: Faerun is still a world that's predominantly governed by rule of law. You can work against those laws, but that means people will treat you differently.
What else do people have?
As part of 'smart evil', why not simply buy reputation back at temples? It really doesn't cost that much.
I guess you can try to keep rep at 16-17 in order to get the best prices. Although you have so much gold after a certain point that prices aren't even a concern.
So you're a shopkeeper and a group with a reputation for random homicide and unregulated mayhem walks into your store.... and you're going to overcharge them???
The only reason they get away with that overpricing is their items not existing in the actual world until you buy them so you can't just kill the shopkeeper and loot him.
I think it would make a good mod idea.
As cleric, I am a chaotic evil Priest of Talos. He considers himself lawful good, and claims to follow a strict code of honor. That is total bullshit, but in his mind, it's true. He's also morbidly fascinated with death and actually has some sense of honor in regards to spiritual matters. This justifies some "good" deeds; that he has a certain respect for true believers regardless of faith. It also goes with his chaotic view to donate to temples of other gods. To him, it's just paying his respects to a deity that allowed a priest to heal/revive a party member. It is his way to show he is holier than thou; his deity is so certain of his faith and dedication, Talos doesn't mind him frequenting temples of others.
He'll use his god-given ability to call lightning to fry a sacrifice to Talos daily. This can be in battle, it can be a random animal if no hostile is nearby, or it can be a commoner if neither animals nor hostiles are there. It's very convenient that this is a once per day ability. It *must* be used. So justifications for killing commoners aren't difficult, and it's chaotic to say "nothing personal, my god demands a sacrifice - wrong time, wrong place *ZAP*". To me, it's not "mindless killing". It's charname's compulsion to worship this way. Counting battles and animals/creatures with no rep loss also prevents this from turning into a hide and seek with Flaming Fists.
Xzar is a frequent party member for the Priest of Talos. Both are naturally high wisdom characters, and they share their fascination with death. I absolutely do not buy into the "evil prevents friendship/respect" thing, because a game can't tell me that is true and have evil Viconia and evil Dorn as romance options. So charname is sort of friends with Xzar, or at least they respect each other. Both are chaotic evil, so they don't consider the other as insane. They see each other as insightful peers. They will conduct experiments with mortality to gain insights. For example, they may kill someone with the declared goal of having necromancer Xzar bring the victim back to life, and then study the changes. Though they don't consider themselves or each other as insane, they still *are* insane and don't realize Xzar will not be able to do that. They think they just need to try a different approach. And because they are also selfish and want all the wisdom for themselves, they'll do these mortality experiments in places where no-one can see them or call the guards. (Not reputation related, but an element of this rp angle: Xzar will find a skull in High Hedge and become friends with it. I treat the skull like Boo, voluntarily blocking a quickuse slot.)
In other words, killing commoners to manage reputation doesn't need to be "mindless slaughter". If you set some rules for yourself and stick to them, it becomes a roleplay element. The daily sacrifice to Talos can also have consequences (if there is no animal or hostile and you *must* take the rep drop, even if you don't have to), so it actually gives more meaning to the flawed alignment system.
On the other hand, charname's personality dictates in which cases he will pick the "good" option. For the wrong reasons, perhaps, but roleplay-wise, it makes sense. For example, he will accept the quest to retrieve the girl's cat because there is a good chance the cat is dead. This interests him, but as soon as he realizes that Xzar can't revive the cat, it becomes a wild card. He may kill the girl for implying her father is a better necromancer than his respected friend. He may decide to let her live and find out how her father does it. He may also kill her to see if the father can bring her back. Or he kills her as a random act of mercy to re-unite her with the cat. It depends on my mood and reputation; all options make equal sense.
The secret to playing evil without die hard metagaming is a defined character who makes choices based on a personal belief system.
Think how it would be if this game came out today - whole different quest progression paths, complex ramifications, moral dilemmas... But as it is, sadly, we're stuck with everything you do being judged, at best, on a 1 to 20 scale
"Yes, sir Mr Necromancer. As luck would have it, you came during our 'Everything is free' sale, so long as you don't turn the sales staff into anything Unnatural."