Mages are disgustingly powerful. The saving grace in BG2 is that killing everything you meet via spell damage is, while perfectly possible, terribly tedious. Sure, you could Horrid Wilting everything to death, stopping to strip protections and lower magic resistance as necessary and recycling spells via Wish-resting, but in most cases it's just so much easier to throw a couple of Fighters with big pointy weapons and Greater Whirlwinds at it (with maybe a Breach or two thrown in).
In the ever popular "1v1 cage match" question, I'd put better odds on a Thief beating a Mage than a Fighter. For one, the Thief actually has the skills to catch the Mage off guard (and make himself scarce after all the Mage's spell triggers and contingencies go off like a warehouse of fireworks). Secondly, Use Any Item means that anything a Mage could do, but was too lazy to do himself every time, can be done by the Thief.
@ZanathKariashi My memory is fuzzy, it may not have been a brooch but the item came out with Tome of Magic I believe.
I am also a bit fuzzy on disjunction, but I believe the spell also effected all the casters items as well, I do not recall the spell area excluding the caster as a target in its description, the percent chance was the chance to permanently depower magic items, they always temporarily lose their function.
Didn't it also have a chance to erase spells from the casters memory?
I really don't want to have to dig up all my 2nd edition material, its been buried in water resistant boxes for 15 years and I have moved twice since they where put away.
Nah, Looked at it in the 2nd edition hand book just a little while ago. It Disjoins all magical items within a 60 ft radius of the caster, except for those the caster is wearing or touching at the time of casting or can be specifically targeted to an item with a touch attack (An Item specifically targeted suffers a -3 penalty on it's save to resist being disjoined). An anti-magic field has a 1% chance per level of being dispelled, but if it survives the items within are unharmed. Artifacts or similarly powerful items must be deliberated targeted in order to have a chance to be effected by the Disjunction and even then, there's only a 1% chance per level to effect them.
The only difference between 2nd and 3rd is that the Disjunction's AoE version can be cast at range, rather then a Caster-centered burst. (Still doesn't effect the caster or his items)
1. Use any item only exists in BG. The closest thieves get to it in PnP is the ability to cast spells from scrolls at lvl 24 (And have a rather hefty chance of failure and backfire for spells above 5th level). A thief in PnP can also only backstab a target once per battle (and it only multiplies the base damage of the weapon, not a bunch of other stuff like BG does), and True seeing prevents a mage from being surprised (It gives 360' vision and completely ignores most illusions (up to 8th level) and stealth, and specifically is unaffected by non-detection. So a thief is an even more inept warrior with low level spells or chance a to screw themselves.
Though as it is with Mages, yes, unprepared they're easy prey (God forbid if you try to attack a Diviner...just don't...you're wasting your time...especially 17+ ones as they're constantly immune to all divination spells cast by lower level mages and any information you found on them is likely 100% false and planted by the diviner themselves). Prepared, and mages'll wreck not only your world, but properly the army you may or may not have brought with you, and the nation you came from, as a single evening's entertainment.
A Bard on the other hand gets spell-casting up to 8th level (at lvl 27 for their 8th level slot), and the ability to use items normally reserved for Mages only at level 24. (though by the lvl 15+ point, Bards are pretty much mages who trade fast spell progression for extra versatility).
As far why there are so many more high level mages, there's the narrative explanation: People like their evil magic-users, and powerful mages make for convenient plot devices.
@ZanathKariashi Hits the major points of the in-game justification, though. Mages generally living very very long (because magic), combined with having a well-defined method of gaining XP without the risks of adventuring, gives them a way to masturbate to higher levels that's not available to other classes. While the game theoretically makes allowances for gaining XP via the nonviolent resolution of conflicts and challenges, for most classes, killing stuff is still the primary way to level up. After all, nobody ever hit level 20 by attending to the spiritual needs of a congregation, or picking pockets, or guarding a gate and searching wagons for contraband. Once a Mage gets to the mid-levels and gets a good stockpile of resources, they're like a tenured professor. Sure, they've got some of the best protections around if they decide to take risks, but if they're patient they can get ahead without taking any serious risks at all.
Unless the Fighter can maintain an unassailable Anti-magic shell indefinitely, all the wizard has to do is out-wait him. And with all of the protections and defenses and contingencies and triggers at his command, a properly prepared wizard will easily do that. Invisibility lasts until broken. A fighter can't hit what he can't see. Dimension door, mirror image, stoneskin. Pro from Normal Weapons, etc... Throw in some Debuffing to reduce the fighter's defenses and hey-presto. Deader fighter.
And a properly prepared wizard can also cast summons as well. Throw in a Balor or two and I bet the fighter has his hands busy while the mage figures out the best way to kill him. Even if the fighter gets first strike, contingencies will generally allow the wizard to survive the first onslaught. Then it is over.
Now, if it isn't a fully prepared wizard. Let's say the fighter strikes from surprise when the wizard is already down in spells, the fighter will win. But classic cage match, wizard will win nine times out of ten.
But D&D was not ever supposed to be about that. it was always supposed to be a collaborative effort with a party of adventurers, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. And in that arena, so long as a fighter has healing, he can generally meat shield his way forever. And a wizard will ultimately run out of fire power. It's just the way things are. Strengths and weaknesses. Checks and balances.
@StrayedMonkey Arrows of dispelling don't go through protection from magical weapons. Mage doesn't need to use magic directly, he can cast energy blades, timestop and there is 20 blades hitting your fighter in an instant. If thac0 is an issue there is tenser's transformation for that.
Agreed. Between chain contingency, contingency, spell triggers, protection from magical weapons, stoneskin and invisibility, there isn't much a fighter can do against a high level mage unless he kills the unprepared mage almost instantly (which isn't that easy to do unless you have the ability to backstab).
In the BG world, as soon as the fighter initiates an attack (triggering a whirlwind, for example) the mage can use a chain contingency of stoneskin, invisibility and protection from magic weapons should protect the mage and even if the fighter has used a scroll of protection from magic, the invisibility spell won't run out until after the scroll does. In the meantime, the mage could choose to attack with summons (Mordy Swords, Planatars, etc.), physical attacks (energy blades), melf's meteors, etc. and then pop back invisible if the fight looks like it isn't going well.
That isn't just a possible counter but is basically a script for not getting toasted by a fighter.
Perhaps the BG2 technique of using the scroll of protection from magic on the mage is the answer, but that isn't going to be available anymore if BGEE is any indication.
I don't believe D&D was ever based around classes be equal. They were based around having a group of characters that work together. I don't think many people had level 30+ mages or priests in D&D PnP. Fighters generally serve a purpose in a group. Thieves are probably the weakest combat class, but they also serve an important role in a group. I realize most people these days like to have the freedom to be whatever class they want and have whatever group makeup they want, but I still find it more fun having the mixture of different classes. Each performing an important role in the group.
I don't believe D&D was ever based around classes be equal. They were based around having a group of characters that work together. I don't think many people had level 30+ mages or priests in D&D PnP. Fighters generally serve a purpose in a group. Thieves are probably the weakest combat class, but they also serve an important role in a group. I realize most people these days like to have the freedom to be whatever class they want and have whatever group makeup they want, but I still find it more fun having the mixture of different classes. Each performing an important role in the group.
I'm still not familiar with how initiative effects fighter vs mage (PnP rules or not). I don't mean speed factor, I mean fighter (or Kensai) standing within weapon reach of mage - who goes hostile and triggers contingencies like stoneskin - the fighter doesn't have an aggressive script. At this point is the ability of the Kensai (with a speed factor of 0 or less) to hit the mage dependant on how quick I press space/pause, which allows him to act?.
What I mean is that contingencies are instantaneous, and a speed factor of 0 or less should be aswell. So does/should the random initiative roll (likely higher for the Kensai) determine who acts first? I think it should - and then fighters might have a chance against mages.
Contingencies activate instantly when the trigger condition occurs (and they're MUCH more customizable then BG allows), setting the condition as when attacked, for a stoneskin contingency would trigger the moment the enemy declared he was attacking you, before he even makes his attack roll to hit. If on the other hand, if the contingency fires on damage, if would fire after the first damage you took, potentially blocking any other attacks after the first in that round and beyond, till your stoneskin was used up or dispelled.
Instant is even faster then 0 speed. Attack speed can never drop below 0 (cast speed is supposed to cap at 1), because you'd be literally attacking back in time if you did...which is just weird.
As the initiative thing. Your weapon/cast speed is added to your initiative roll to determine where in the round your first attack occurs. Kensai have no bonuses to initiative, only weapon speed, so it ultimately depends on the weapon how their speed is effected. If they have a speed of 0 after all bonuses, they might, if their initiative roll is equal or better then the mage's, go first, since the lowest cast speed a mage can attain (if properly implemented) is 1. So if the mage and Kensai both had 4s for their initiative, and the kensai was wielding a weapon with a speed of 0 after all mods, and the mage was casting a magic missile (speed 1), the Kensai's initiative would still be 4, while the mages would be 5, and if the kensai hit with his first attack, the magic missile would be disrupted.
Interesting topic. I personally would bet my money on the Mage everyday, unless unprepared. I would like to swing the topic a bit: what about a fight Mage vs Cleric? Same level, whatever rules you prefer. I'd pick up 3rd edition. in that case, clerics would win a good 80% of the times.
Interesting topic. I personally would bet my money on the Mage everyday, unless unprepared. I would like to swing the topic a bit: what about a fight Mage vs Cleric? Same level, whatever rules you prefer. I'd pick up 3rd edition. in that case, clerics would win a good 80% of the times.
I'd favor a mage in 2nd edition and a cleric in 3rd. 2nd edition mages strike me as extraordinarily powerful, much more so than any other class (and by mages, I'm including sorcerers, specialists, and wild mages). The Cleric could heal themself or buff up to try to outlast the mage, but a high-level mage has too many powerful spells at their disposal for the cleric to survive.
A third edition Cleric, however, has a massive amount of melee power compared to a 2nd edition cleric, in addition to more offensive capabilities and domain spells. They should have a much easier time with both outlasting the mage's offensive arsenal and counterattacking.
We're talking about level 30 vs. level 30... For all practical purposes it could end up being a stalemate between a Wizard Slayer and Mage, providing that the WS has plenty of scrolls of Protection From Magic and buffing potions. The WS would have to fight summons, but would also be invulnerable to spells. By the same token, there is much the Mage can do to avoid the WS ever getting within melee striking distance. And yet if a dual-wielding WS pumped up on an oil of speed ever does get near enough to the Mage to hit 10x at 3 APR using GWW, then the Mage goes into casting failure, at least. It's then a matter of whether the WS can then get through the Mage's various protections, i.e., what buffs the Mage has in place prior to losing the ability to cast.
A BG 40 Wizard Slayer vs a BG 30 mage, will 10/10 result in a dead wizard slayer. Time stop, shapechange:Mindflayer, chain timestop, every other round...Game.
In actual PnP a wizard slayer can't use ANY magical items (well...technically they can, but for as long as they're in his possession and for 1 round after leaving it, they're functionally non-magical). They're also incredibly difficult to buff, and heal since they can't lower their magic resistance and ALL spells (even raise dead and resurrection) have to try and by-pass it. Also buffs/debuffs only last 50% as long and heals/damage is only 50% effective, even when they get past his resistance. Also, any potions/scrolls in his possession are rendered non-functional, so the only way he can even benefit from them, is for someone else to hold on to them for him. (It takes 1 round of being in the wizard slayer's possession to suppress the item, so if he took it from an ally and used it immediately, he might gain some benefit from it, if it can beat his magic resistance.
(Magic resistance is 25%+1% per level until 20, +2% 21-30 (Class Levels in PnP stop at 30, 31-40 are divine HD that don't apply to most class abilities, and have their own table and rules)
They can channel that anti-magic into their melee weapons to allow them to ignore to-hit requirements up to a certain level (+1/3 levels, max of +5 at 15 (but still have to obey innate damage immunities...clay golems still require blunt weapons to damage to a lvl 3+ wizard slayer)), attempt to dispel magic on hit equal to their class level, defenses like Protection from normal weapons don't work at all vs them (though stoneskin would, assuming it's not dispelled), and any spell caster damaged has to save vs spells at -2 or receive a 25% spell failure chance (non-stacking) for 5 rounds. They also gain a +1 bonus to saves vs all magical spells and effects every 3 levels. And have a 20%+1% per level of being able to see through illusions each round.
They also can generate a psudo-antimagic field (above 10th level) (this ability can be turned on or off, but requires the wizard slayer be conscious to do so). It has a radius of 10ft centered on the wizard slayer, and has all the normal properties of an anti-magic field, except items and spells that enter the AoE only have a chance equal to the wizard slayer's Magic Resistance of being suppressed, instead of automatically being suppressed.
After level 20, they can make a melee touch attack once per round in place of their attacks vs a magical item that has a chance equal to their magic resistance of being effected as if by a Disjunction (all the normal effects and restrictions of Disjunction apply except it only applies to the target item and items entitled to a save can still save as normal, has a 1% chance per level of effecting items in an anti-magic field but doesn't harm the field itself when successful, but still only has a 1% chance per level of effecting Artifacts (If an Artifact is disjoined the Wizard Slayer has to save vs death at -4 (without his WS save bonus) or die instantly from the magical feedback released, this feedback completely destroys the Wizard Slayer's body, requiring a Wish and Resurrection spell to revive them (The spells must by-pass the Wizard Slayer's magic resistance at the time of death to be effective).
So, they become ridiculously powerful at mage killing...but...they also become progressively harder to heal themselves and buff up. The only magical items they can wield that retain most of their effects are Artifacts, which in a PnP campaign don't fall off trees every 5 feet.
So will a scroll of magic protection work against time stop and a mindflayer's attacks?
It's been too long since I played BG2 and I don't even have it installed. Not necessarily that BG2:EE will allow a WS to use if protection from magic scrolls, as BG:EE does...
I'm curious too as to what potions if any a WS can use, at least in BG:EE, so later today I'll test some.
No, the scroll just gives you 100% magic resistance (doesn't allow beneficial by-pass)/failure and removes all magical buff/debuffs. The Mindflayer int drain isn't magical, and can only be removed by time. Even the Psion Blade doesn't protect against it, it just stops their psionic stun.
And time stop immunity is only possessed by 2 enemies in the whole game (give ya hint...Demi-god level being or equivalent), with a 3rd who can potentially (it's possible to catch him if the time stop happens while he's in the middle of using another ability) counter-timestop and thus move with you during the time stop. No item or ability at the player's disposal allows movement during an enemy's timestop (unless you mod something in).
Balthazar. He has a move that he uses in response to a time stop going off (can't remember the name) that gives him time stop immunity for 4 rounds, but if he's in the middle of another of his specials, he can't activate it. (I caught him in mid-air with my F/M's time stop when he was doing that move where he drop kicks you across the room. Though it's hard to pull off consistently due to how fast he zips around and how unpredictable his move usage is).
Interesting topic. I personally would bet my money on the Mage everyday, unless unprepared. I would like to swing the topic a bit: what about a fight Mage vs Cleric? Same level, whatever rules you prefer. I'd pick up 3rd edition. in that case, clerics would win a good 80% of the times.
@Moradin ,in that case I would bet on the cleric - they've got all sorts of protections and disruptive spells!
Balthazar. He has a move that he uses in response to a time stop going off (can't remember the name) that gives him time stop immunity for 4 rounds, but if he's in the middle of another of his specials, he can't activate it.
Lunar Stance. By the way I still wonder how there can be people betting on a WS over a mage.
Comments
In the ever popular "1v1 cage match" question, I'd put better odds on a Thief beating a Mage than a Fighter. For one, the Thief actually has the skills to catch the Mage off guard (and make himself scarce after all the Mage's spell triggers and contingencies go off like a warehouse of fireworks). Secondly, Use Any Item means that anything a Mage could do, but was too lazy to do himself every time, can be done by the Thief.
My memory is fuzzy, it may not have been a brooch but the item came out with Tome of Magic I believe.
I am also a bit fuzzy on disjunction, but I believe the spell also effected all the casters items as well, I do not recall the spell area excluding the caster as a target in its description, the percent chance was the chance to permanently depower magic items, they always temporarily lose their function.
Didn't it also have a chance to erase spells from the casters memory?
I really don't want to have to dig up all my 2nd edition material, its been buried in water resistant boxes for 15 years and I have moved twice since they where put away.
The only difference between 2nd and 3rd is that the Disjunction's AoE version can be cast at range, rather then a Caster-centered burst. (Still doesn't effect the caster or his items)
1. Use any item only exists in BG. The closest thieves get to it in PnP is the ability to cast spells from scrolls at lvl 24 (And have a rather hefty chance of failure and backfire for spells above 5th level). A thief in PnP can also only backstab a target once per battle (and it only multiplies the base damage of the weapon, not a bunch of other stuff like BG does), and True seeing prevents a mage from being surprised (It gives 360' vision and completely ignores most illusions (up to 8th level) and stealth, and specifically is unaffected by non-detection. So a thief is an even more inept warrior with low level spells or chance a to screw themselves.
Though as it is with Mages, yes, unprepared they're easy prey (God forbid if you try to attack a Diviner...just don't...you're wasting your time...especially 17+ ones as they're constantly immune to all divination spells cast by lower level mages and any information you found on them is likely 100% false and planted by the diviner themselves). Prepared, and mages'll wreck not only your world, but properly the army you may or may not have brought with you, and the nation you came from, as a single evening's entertainment.
A Bard on the other hand gets spell-casting up to 8th level (at lvl 27 for their 8th level slot), and the ability to use items normally reserved for Mages only at level 24. (though by the lvl 15+ point, Bards are pretty much mages who trade fast spell progression for extra versatility).
@ZanathKariashi Hits the major points of the in-game justification, though. Mages generally living very very long (because magic), combined with having a well-defined method of gaining XP without the risks of adventuring, gives them a way to masturbate to higher levels that's not available to other classes. While the game theoretically makes allowances for gaining XP via the nonviolent resolution of conflicts and challenges, for most classes, killing stuff is still the primary way to level up. After all, nobody ever hit level 20 by attending to the spiritual needs of a congregation, or picking pockets, or guarding a gate and searching wagons for contraband. Once a Mage gets to the mid-levels and gets a good stockpile of resources, they're like a tenured professor. Sure, they've got some of the best protections around if they decide to take risks, but if they're patient they can get ahead without taking any serious risks at all.
And a properly prepared wizard can also cast summons as well. Throw in a Balor or two and I bet the fighter has his hands busy while the mage figures out the best way to kill him. Even if the fighter gets first strike, contingencies will generally allow the wizard to survive the first onslaught. Then it is over.
Now, if it isn't a fully prepared wizard. Let's say the fighter strikes from surprise when the wizard is already down in spells, the fighter will win. But classic cage match, wizard will win nine times out of ten.
But D&D was not ever supposed to be about that. it was always supposed to be a collaborative effort with a party of adventurers, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. And in that arena, so long as a fighter has healing, he can generally meat shield his way forever. And a wizard will ultimately run out of fire power. It's just the way things are. Strengths and weaknesses. Checks and balances.
In the BG world, as soon as the fighter initiates an attack (triggering a whirlwind, for example) the mage can use a chain contingency of stoneskin, invisibility and protection from magic weapons should protect the mage and even if the fighter has used a scroll of protection from magic, the invisibility spell won't run out until after the scroll does. In the meantime, the mage could choose to attack with summons (Mordy Swords, Planatars, etc.), physical attacks (energy blades), melf's meteors, etc. and then pop back invisible if the fight looks like it isn't going well.
That isn't just a possible counter but is basically a script for not getting toasted by a fighter.
Perhaps the BG2 technique of using the scroll of protection from magic on the mage is the answer, but that isn't going to be available anymore if BGEE is any indication.
And me too.
What I mean is that contingencies are instantaneous, and a speed factor of 0 or less should be aswell. So does/should the random initiative roll (likely higher for the Kensai) determine who acts first? I think it should - and then fighters might have a chance against mages.
Instant is even faster then 0 speed. Attack speed can never drop below 0 (cast speed is supposed to cap at 1), because you'd be literally attacking back in time if you did...which is just weird.
As the initiative thing. Your weapon/cast speed is added to your initiative roll to determine where in the round your first attack occurs. Kensai have no bonuses to initiative, only weapon speed, so it ultimately depends on the weapon how their speed is effected. If they have a speed of 0 after all bonuses, they might, if their initiative roll is equal or better then the mage's, go first, since the lowest cast speed a mage can attain (if properly implemented) is 1. So if the mage and Kensai both had 4s for their initiative, and the kensai was wielding a weapon with a speed of 0 after all mods, and the mage was casting a magic missile (speed 1), the Kensai's initiative would still be 4, while the mages would be 5, and if the kensai hit with his first attack, the magic missile would be disrupted.
I would like to swing the topic a bit: what about a fight Mage vs Cleric? Same level, whatever rules you prefer. I'd pick up 3rd edition. in that case, clerics would win a good 80% of the times.
A third edition Cleric, however, has a massive amount of melee power compared to a 2nd edition cleric, in addition to more offensive capabilities and domain spells. They should have a much easier time with both outlasting the mage's offensive arsenal and counterattacking.
Testing for BG:EE shows the WS can use the scroll of Protection from Magic but not most potions (I didn't check the full gambit of potions).
In actual PnP a wizard slayer can't use ANY magical items (well...technically they can, but for as long as they're in his possession and for 1 round after leaving it, they're functionally non-magical). They're also incredibly difficult to buff, and heal since they can't lower their magic resistance and ALL spells (even raise dead and resurrection) have to try and by-pass it. Also buffs/debuffs only last 50% as long and heals/damage is only 50% effective, even when they get past his resistance. Also, any potions/scrolls in his possession are rendered non-functional, so the only way he can even benefit from them, is for someone else to hold on to them for him. (It takes 1 round of being in the wizard slayer's possession to suppress the item, so if he took it from an ally and used it immediately, he might gain some benefit from it, if it can beat his magic resistance.
(Magic resistance is 25%+1% per level until 20, +2% 21-30 (Class Levels in PnP stop at 30, 31-40 are divine HD that don't apply to most class abilities, and have their own table and rules)
They can channel that anti-magic into their melee weapons to allow them to ignore to-hit requirements up to a certain level (+1/3 levels, max of +5 at 15 (but still have to obey innate damage immunities...clay golems still require blunt weapons to damage to a lvl 3+ wizard slayer)), attempt to dispel magic on hit equal to their class level, defenses like Protection from normal weapons don't work at all vs them (though stoneskin would, assuming it's not dispelled), and any spell caster damaged has to save vs spells at -2 or receive a 25% spell failure chance (non-stacking) for 5 rounds. They also gain a +1 bonus to saves vs all magical spells and effects every 3 levels. And have a 20%+1% per level of being able to see through illusions each round.
They also can generate a psudo-antimagic field (above 10th level) (this ability can be turned on or off, but requires the wizard slayer be conscious to do so). It has a radius of 10ft centered on the wizard slayer, and has all the normal properties of an anti-magic field, except items and spells that enter the AoE only have a chance equal to the wizard slayer's Magic Resistance of being suppressed, instead of automatically being suppressed.
After level 20, they can make a melee touch attack once per round in place of their attacks vs a magical item that has a chance equal to their magic resistance of being effected as if by a Disjunction (all the normal effects and restrictions of Disjunction apply except it only applies to the target item and items entitled to a save can still save as normal, has a 1% chance per level of effecting items in an anti-magic field but doesn't harm the field itself when successful, but still only has a 1% chance per level of effecting Artifacts (If an Artifact is disjoined the Wizard Slayer has to save vs death at -4 (without his WS save bonus) or die instantly from the magical feedback released, this feedback completely destroys the Wizard Slayer's body, requiring a Wish and Resurrection spell to revive them (The spells must by-pass the Wizard Slayer's magic resistance at the time of death to be effective).
So, they become ridiculously powerful at mage killing...but...they also become progressively harder to heal themselves and buff up. The only magical items they can wield that retain most of their effects are Artifacts, which in a PnP campaign don't fall off trees every 5 feet.
It's been too long since I played BG2 and I don't even have it installed. Not necessarily that BG2:EE will allow a WS to use if protection from magic scrolls, as BG:EE does...
I'm curious too as to what potions if any a WS can use, at least in BG:EE, so later today I'll test some.
And time stop immunity is only possessed by 2 enemies in the whole game (give ya hint...Demi-god level being or equivalent), with a 3rd who can potentially (it's possible to catch him if the time stop happens while he's in the middle of using another ability) counter-timestop and thus move with you during the time stop. No item or ability at the player's disposal allows movement during an enemy's timestop (unless you mod something in).
Who is the third one with counter timestop?
By the way I still wonder how there can be people betting on a WS over a mage.