Monking the monk!?!?

GaNoN

Well i was planning to test a monk as main char on an alter game.

What do you think about maining a monk? im curious about this naked fight class

Sidemi

"You will suffer, you will all suffer."
Good luck with that, low level monk is terrible but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.

GaNoN

Sidemi said:

"You will suffer, you will all suffer."
Good luck with that, low level monk is terrible but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.

Can u explain me why is so terrible ?

Zutti

GaNoN said:

Sidemi said:

"You will suffer, you will all suffer."
Good luck with that, low level monk is terrible but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.

Can u explain me why is so terrible ?

Monks were designed with BG2 and its expansion in mind. At the end of the game, they are incredibly powerful, but much of that is missing from low level monks. Most specifically, no armor, poor fist damage, 1 APR limit, thief weapon restrictions, cleric hp, etc combine many of the limitations or restrictions of other classes without providing the bonuses in exchange(stealth/backstab abilities, spellcasting, weapon specialization)

GaNoN

Zutti said:

GaNoN said:

Sidemi said:

"You will suffer, you will all suffer."
Good luck with that, low level monk is terrible but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.

Can u explain me why is so terrible ?

Monks were designed with BG2 and its expansion in mind. At the end of the game, they are incredibly powerful, but much of that is missing from low level monks. Most specifically, no armor, poor fist damage, 1 APR limit, thief weapon restrictions, cleric hp, etc combine many of the limitations or restrictions of other classes without providing the bonuses in exchange(stealth/backstab abilities, spellcasting, weapon specialization)

i c ty. so better wait for BG:EE2 right ?

Nifft

Some people enjoy difficult games, and keeping a Monk CHARNAME alive is certainly not easy.

Give it a try, if you want, but I'd be prepared to give up if it gets too frustrating.

stygga

@Zutti there is no "1apr limit". Monks can get 2 APR by the end of bg1 with their fists. I've had Rasaad putting out ridiculous damage with the right gear late game.

toanwrath

They can still be fun in BG:EE. They move fast so they can kite enemies with darts/sling or they can rush archers/mages, stunning blow can be useful, is you are lawful good there are a few specific items that help you from Rasaad's stuff. Also, without playing one in BG:EE first, your strength will stay at crappy 18 but if you get the strength tome in BG:EE you can have 19 strength which makes for some awesome attacks.

However, they are fragile so tread lightly (though there is a certain scimitar that gives 2 AC to good characters, lawful good monk boots for 2 AC, single weapon style for 1 AC, either a ring of protection for 1 or 2 more and with a dex of 18 that is 0 or -1 AC before the monk's natural AC bonus.)

GaNoN

toanwrath said:

They can still be fun in BG:EE. They move fast so they can kite enemies with darts/sling or they can rush archers/mages, stunning blow can be useful, is you are lawful good there are a few specific items that help you from Rasaad's stuff. Also, without playing one in BG:EE first, your strength will stay at crappy 18 but if you get the strength tome in BG:EE you can have 19 strength which makes for some awesome attacks.

However, they are fragile so tread lightly (though there is a certain scimitar that gives 2 AC to good characters, lawful good monk boots for 2 AC, single weapon style for 1 AC, either a ring of protection for 1 or 2 more and with a dex of 18 that is 0 or -1 AC before the monk's natural AC bonus.)

I thought it was better to use the fist fighting instead of that op scimitar :P

Nifft

Monk question: I noticed that a Druid's natural weapons act as one-handed weapons, so if you've got dots in Single Weapon Style you get the better Crit range and AC boost. Does that work for unarmed Monks, too?

stygga

If I remember right, monk hands count as two handed weapons, but you can't put points in two handed weapon style, so no point other than as a addition to your "just in case" weapon.

Zutti

stygga said:

@Zutti there is no "1apr limit". Monks can get 2 APR by the end of bg1 with their fists. I've had Rasaad putting out ridiculous damage with the right gear late game.

Yeah, my train of thought was on very low level comparisons(ie level 1 monk vs fighter).

In any case, monks wielding a weapon are limited to 1 APR. I also find it difficult to believe that Rasaad performs any better than average at high BG1 levels, having solo'd a monk through tutu. Unless, of course, by 'ridiculous' you mean he stands there wildly flailing until connecting for 6 damage.

toanwrath

GaNoN said:

I thought it was better to use the fist fighting instead of that op scimitar :P

IMO, until you have higher levels to get extra APR/better damage die on unarmed or until your strength hits a solid 19 from gloves/belt/tome, the scimitar's THAC0 bonus and AC bonus make it more worth while than unarmed (unless you want to stunning fist or have the black pit gloves of +4/+4 unarmed THAC0/damage).
At low levels, I go for the scimitar. If you aren't good/don't want to cheese the scimitar, there are some other decent one handed weapons to consider temporarily until you get better unarmed combat for the single weapon style bonus 1 AC. Or you could dart/sling and stay away from melee until you get better AC/unarmed combat. Many ways to play monks, and I absolutely think they are worth it if you are willing to put in some effort.

As for Rasaad, he can be useful (though he has nothing over a PC monk that is for sure. Especially since you can take his voice set #5 and his portrait). Though you should borrow him temporarily for his boots to take and for some awesome items in his quest if you don't want to keep him.

TL;DR:


It is...eventually

toanwrath

Zutti said:

Yeah, my train of thought was on very low level comparisons(ie level 1 monk vs fighter).

In any case, monks wielding a weapon are limited to 1 APR. I also find it difficult to believe that Rasaad performs any better than average at high BG1 levels, having solo'd a monk through tutu. Unless, of course, by 'ridiculous' you mean he stands there wildly flailing until connecting for 6 damage.

@Zutti
I generally stick with single weapon until he gets that third attack, or when I get a strength boosting item for him (or another monk) for stunning fist. I agree, at high BG:EE levels, the single weapon loses its charm (lol at monks flailing wildly, very humorous image, especially Rasaad). In BG2, it is useful to keep a +4 weapon around for certain enemies however, since monks don't get that high with their fists (looks like Rasaad will be flailing around at Demi liches with Usuno's blade from Watcher's Keep).

Mathmick

@toanwrath - Monks get +4 at level 20.

toanwrath

Mathmick said:

@toanwrath - Monks get +4 at level 20.

For real? Is this a joke? I always thought they capped at +3. Was that in SoA, ToB, BgT, BG:EE, or all of the above???

Mathmick

It's in BG:EE (Manual at least). Pretty sure it's in BG2 but I'm gonna load up the game quickly to check though. Doesn't appear in the BG2 manual but I'm pretty sure it says in game.

EDIT: Doesn't say so in BG2 Character Creation, though I'm sure it does get to +4 @ level 20, considering there's no reason to introduce it in BG:EE.

Also, I have no idea what that other game is, so no info on that.

toanwrath

Mathmick said:

It's in BG:EE (Manual at least). Pretty sure it's in BG2 but I'm gonna load up the game quickly to check though. Doesn't appear in the BG2 manual but I'm pretty sure it says in game.

Just loaded BG2 (Gog.com version) and it says they cap at +3 at level 15.
BG:EE says they get +4 at level 25, not 20. I trust in game reading over the horribly inaccurate manuals.
Good to know they implemented that though.

Mathmick

Re-read in BG:EE and it did say L25. Whichever it is, one of the sources (Manual/Game) should be corrected.

toanwrath

Manuals are notoriously incorrect, I heard from a few moderators that they were being fixed at some point.
Still, it's a new addition to EE and I approve.

Mathmick

Curiosity got the best of me so I tested it in BG2:

L20 Monk could not hit a Sorcerer under the effects of Improved Mantle (Requires +4)
- So I was wrong.

L24 Monk could not hit Sorc under effects of Imp. Mantle.
L25 Monk successfully hit and killed Sorc under effects of Improved Mantle.
- So Monks do get +4 at level 25. I knew I wasn't making it up!

toanwrath

@Mathmick
Was all of that in BG2?
Well, level 25 required Throne of Bhaal, so that might have been where they added it in.
Thank you for the testing as I lack the intelligence/skills to do so

PeteAtoms

If being a monk is too tough in BG, do what I do, lower the difficulty setting.

Mathmick

toanwrath said:

@Mathmick
Was all of that in BG2?
Well, level 25 required Throne of Bhaal, so that might have been where they added it in.
Thank you for the testing as I lack the intelligence/skills to do so

All in BG2.

lunar

If you tank with your monk, you will die. Go toe to toe with an ogre berserker, and since your AC is bad and you have no immunity to criticals, ogre berserker will demolish you unless you stun him in the first try. (which is a low chance, you must first hit his AC and then he must fail a save vs spell)

Do not use monk as a tank, but a specialised, high speed, precision-strike guy. Hide in shadows, approach an enemy who either has a ranged weapon or is a spell caster. Activate stunning fist and attack from shadows. BAM! You'll get +4 to hit for attacking from shadows (if the enemy had a ranged weapon, your bonus jumps to +8) so you will score a hit more reliably and the victim may be stunned. And stunning a spell caster or ranged attacker is nice! You can kite melee fighters easily. Archers and mages, not so much. When melee guys attack you, retreat to the party and let real tanks handle the tough guys while you jump in and out of the melee with your monk speed and stunning fists, before enemies can retaliate. As a bonus, monks do have nice saving throws overall vs spellcasters, and their natural AC vs missiles is impressive, equip girdle of piercing and boots of avoidance too, and most ranged enemies will have hard time to hit you.

moopy

This is for vanilla BG2 and should apply to BG:EE.

http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Monks

+4 fists at level 25 as you've already found out, but the other information might be interesting to someone.

toanwrath

lunar said:

If you tank with your monk, you will die. Go toe to toe with an ogre berserker, and since your AC is bad and you have no immunity to criticals, ogre berserker will demolish you unless you stun him in the first try. (which is a low chance, you must first hit his AC and then he must fail a save vs spell)

Do not use monk as a tank, but a specialised, high speed, precision-strike guy. Hide in shadows, approach an enemy who either has a ranged weapon or is a spell caster. Activate stunning fist and attack from shadows. BAM! You'll get +4 to hit for attacking from shadows (if the enemy had a ranged weapon, your bonus jumps to +8) so you will score a hit more reliably and the victim may be stunned. And stunning a spell caster or ranged attacker is nice! You can kite melee fighters easily. Archers and mages, not so much. When melee guys attack you, retreat to the party and let real tanks handle the tough guys while you jump in and out of the melee with your monk speed and stunning fists, before enemies can retaliate. As a bonus, monks do have nice saving throws overall vs spellcasters, and their natural AC vs missiles is impressive, equip girdle of piercing and boots of avoidance too, and most ranged enemies will have hard time to hit you.

I'm not sure if this was in response to my mention of how you can get a decent AC with a monk. If it wasn't, disregard this.
I wasn't really saying that the monk is a tank, I was merely throwing in survivability methods for low level monks. Yes they are fragile, they might not die right away, and they aren't meant to be tanks.

Also, I just made a solo monk trying stealth and hit and run tactics--difficult for sure, but fun. Inventory nearly full of darts and lots of kiting.

Djimmy

I started a monk in BGEE and it is kinda tricky. I am level 6th and things are getting a little bit easier now. I was solo until I learned about B*****h. It is true, monks are weak on low levels. Thac0 is bad, AC is bad, no protection from Crirical Hits, no bows... If you plan playing solo avoid Ghasts and undead that have Hold ability. Use stealth and Stunning Blow and fights will be easier but some would say cheesier... wtv.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Lemernis

I've written a guide for using Rasaad that applies to the Monk class in general. Hope it helps: see here.

mjs

in bg:ee pick up with your monk charname, pick up ajantis and use his protection from evil and have your clerics/druids memorise 2nd spell barkskin and stack them on your monk for -4 AC