The concept of innocence on children has less to do with the fact that they're unable or unwilling to do evil, and more with the fact that they just don't know better. Up until certain age, children are pretty much sociopaths: their emotions and empathy literally haven't developed enough for them to understand the error of their ways, why they shouldn't hurt people, and how those other people might feel about it. They're far less likely to feel guilt than adults, and the only thing that keeps them in check is the fear of punishment.
Give the child a gun and remove that fear, and it is not unlikely he will shoot someone if they anger him. Likewise, teach her Dimension Door and the rites of an evil sea goddess, and have a bunch of adult jerks steal something from her, and you can't be surprised if she seeks retribution and tries to murder them.
But in spite of all this, you cannot hold it against them: they just haven't learned to know better yet, and you will need to give them time to reach adulthood and decide for themselves before starting to think about bashing heads. If possible, you should give them up to a kindly and wise authority that can teach them these things, and I wouldn't have minded if the player was given the opportunity to do so in this instance as well.
Well I, like most people I think, just feel a natural revulsion at the idea of killing a child. She might not be innocent, but she still seems too young to fully understand the ramifications of her actions; it seems to me she just acts the only way she knows, because it's how she was taught by her earth mother.
Sending her to a place where she can be reformed would be the only good act I can think of, but I don't know if such places exist in the realms. It'll be a temple belonging to some other god or goddess, I suppose.
The concept of innocence on children has less to do with the fact that they're unable or unwilling to do evil, and more with the fact that they just don't know better. Up until certain age, children are pretty much sociopaths: their emotions and empathy literally haven't developed enough for them to understand the error of their ways, why they shouldn't hurt people, and how those other people might feel about it. They're far less likely to feel guilt than adults, and the only thing that keeps them in check is the fear of punishment.
Give the child a gun and remove that fear, and it is not unlikely he will shoot someone if they anger him. Likewise, teach her Dimension Door and the rites of an evil sea goddess, and have a bunch of adult jerks steal something from her, and you can't be surprised if she seeks retribution and tries to murder them.
But in spite of all this, you cannot hold it against them: they just haven't learned to know better yet, and you will need to give them time to reach adulthood and decide for themselves before starting to think about bashing heads. If possible, you should give them up to a kindly and wise authority that can teach them these things, and I wouldn't have minded if the player was given the opportunity to do so in this instance as well.
That would be a good way to end this quest.
Do you guys think that the farmers who buried Viconia are evil too?
Do you guys think that the farmers who buried Viconia are evil too?
Absolutely, without a doubt. What they did to her before burying her destroys any chance of being considered a good man and they deserved more than what she did to them.
[Spoiler] "I woke up to searing pain. While unconscious, they had abused and tortured me...then tried to bury their sins." [/spoiler]
@Mykra: Yeah, I forgot that point. I might have to change my own answer then, if that's true and Viconia did not lie or embellish (she has some history about that).
Do you guys think that the farmers who buried Viconia are evil too?
Absolutely, without a doubt. What they did to her before burying her destroys any chance of being considered a good man and they deserved more than what she did to them.
Yeah; they didn't just react to seeing a drow for the first time. They had a lot of time to think about what they were doing, and went far farther than they needed to if they were just scared.
@BlueSorceress - I'm pretty sure you don't have to be in chapter 5 to complete this quest. It does not require any access to the restricted area of Baldur's Gate pre-cloakwood mines
I think that you can also take a third course - convince the fishermen to return the item without killing them and give it back to the priestess. The fishermen just disperse, or go hostile and then disperse. None of them are in the right, but none of them deserve to die either.
With regard to Shar-Teel flipping out on you - I don't know what's going on. I'm curious to see what happens when I get to that part of the game with my Mostly Evil party. I'd volunteer to run a test and get back with you but I'm not nearly close enough to Chapter 5 to be able to give you an answer any time soon.
Hot damn! I'm on it guys. Let me just pick up me CE fighter and get back to you.
-Blue
My CE fighter killed the fishermen, I would have killed her too but she ported too fast.
No farmer would EVER get horny with a Drow, they would be to scared for that.
They think that drows are demons ... And to be honest, mostly all of then are ... Lol
So, you're saying that no one who lives in the country has ever in history begun to speculate about the merest possibility of performing some kind of unnatural sexual act?
Yes, and it was even confirmed for the people that didn't figure it out (or didn't hear about it because they played females/didn't romance) on the old Bioware boards when someone made a massive thread about rape as a backstory and how it kept being used (and is still being used judging by Mass Effect using it for Jack, Skyrim using it for Sapphire and Serana (hell, for that entire Vampire coven), even the Metal Gear series used it.)
The dialogue was pretty clear. They realized she was a dark elf, ambushed her, did what they wanted, then figured they'd get away with it by making the body vanish. Even without a confirmation I believe her as she's not a liar. Sure, she's not a pretty princess of the white city of goodness, but she never gave off the vibe that she needed to lie constantly to get what she wanted. It's like Neil Gaiman's Lucifer, 'Why would I lie? The truth is far easier to use to get what I want,'
Those farmers deserved what they got. In fact, I wish I could go to Beregost and burn their houses down just for being the prats they were.
No farmer would EVER get horny with a Drow, they would be to scared for that.
They think that drows are demons ... And to be honest, mostly all of then are ... Lol
So, you're saying that no one who lives in the country has ever in history begun to speculate about the merest possibility of performing some kind of unnatural sexual act?
No farmer would EVER get horny with a Drow, they would be to scared for that.
They think that drows are demons ... And to be honest, mostly all of then are ... Lol
So, you're saying that no one who lives in the country has ever in history begun to speculate about the merest possibility of performing some kind of unnatural sexual act?
With animals ? Yes
With a demon? Not likely.
That's only because they don't know how to round them up.
No farmer would EVER get horny with a Drow, they would be to scared for that.
They think that drows are demons ... And to be honest, mostly all of then are ... Lol
So, you're saying that no one who lives in the country has ever in history begun to speculate about the merest possibility of performing some kind of unnatural sexual act?
I feel like I've defiled a thread I really liked...
I don't like to get into DnD alignment discussions, but since people keep mentioning the "evil" of Umberlee, I think it's worth mentioning again what the whole point of the Deity is. She may terrorise sailors, and her (thematically female, of course) church may extort payment from janners, but that's what THE SEA is all about.
Umberlee represents the capricious nature of the sea and the dangers that must be overcome to survive and make a living from it. If Umberlee was to be destroyed, the sea would not necessarily be safer under the new holder of her portfolio. I would expect that should the new god be a benevolent one they would change to match their new role, perhaps in the way Kelemvor had to cease being so nice.
The sea doesn't need an evil god to be a bad place. My grandparents' house used to be full of nautical art and paraphernalia. Take a look at a representation of 'the sea', and there will probably begreen, tridents, mermaids and skulls involved. "For those in peril on the sea" is one of the great hymns of my childhood.
No farmer would EVER get horny with a Drow, they would be to scared for that.
They think that drows are demons ... And to be honest, mostly all of then are ... Lol
So, you're saying that no one who lives in the country has ever in history begun to speculate about the merest possibility of performing some kind of unnatural sexual act?
When did she ever even outright mention she was raped? All she said was "tortured and abused".
I mean, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it's really somewhat ambiguous about the matters, so might as well not draw any more conclusions than what we heard. All we know for sure is that they hurt her quite a bit.
Rape is not a universal force of nature that's automatically brought upon every helpless female everywhere ever, you know.
When did she ever even outright mention she was raped? All she said was "tortured and abused".
I mean, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it's really somewhat ambiguous about the matters, so might as well not draw any more conclusions than what we heard. All we know for sure is that they hurt her quite a bit.
Rape is not a universal force of nature that's automatically brought upon every helpless female everywhere ever, you know.
Usually when a girl complains she waa "abused" it means "raped" . At least here.
No farmer would EVER get horny with a Drow, they would be to scared for that.
They think that drows are demons ... And to be honest, mostly all of then are ... Lol
So, you're saying that no one who lives in the country has ever in history begun to speculate about the merest possibility of performing some kind of unnatural sexual act?
So - to get back to the thing that started this topic!
I just took Shar-Teel with my party to go kill Tenya and nothing unusual happened. In fact, Shar-Teel chunked the girl herself. I'm going to play through a couple more variations - let Dorn chunk her, listen to her story, go back to the fishermen, then go chunk her - but I'm leaning toward it being a bug.
So - to get back to the thing that started this topic!
Oh, I already knew it wasn't scripted, so definitely a bug. Probably should have said so, but we all got distracted talking about the characters and morality... I think maybe it should be scripted for Good and certain other NPC's turn hostile if you kill Tenya or the Fishermen. Like if you try to poison the Druid grove in BG2, Aerie, Jaheira, Cernd, and I'm sure most the good guys will turn on you.
Comments
Anyone old enough to cast dimension door e old enough to be doing evil in the name of AN EVIL GODNESS.
So this "child" is not inocent.
She will take the bowl and utilize it to torture people who wish to travel and fish in the seas.
Sure Umberlee is not as evil as Shar, but, even so, she asks for nasty rituals and make people linger just to pay tribute.
So i still think that killing her is not "evil" at all.
I think Ajantis would bash hers skull with a smile in his face, really;.
Give the child a gun and remove that fear, and it is not unlikely he will shoot someone if they anger him. Likewise, teach her Dimension Door and the rites of an evil sea goddess, and have a bunch of adult jerks steal something from her, and you can't be surprised if she seeks retribution and tries to murder them.
But in spite of all this, you cannot hold it against them: they just haven't learned to know better yet, and you will need to give them time to reach adulthood and decide for themselves before starting to think about bashing heads. If possible, you should give them up to a kindly and wise authority that can teach them these things, and I wouldn't have minded if the player was given the opportunity to do so in this instance as well.
Sending her to a place where she can be reformed would be the only good act I can think of, but I don't know if such places exist in the realms. It'll be a temple belonging to some other god or goddess, I suppose.
Do you guys think that the farmers who buried Viconia are evil too?
What Viconia did afterwards kind of proves their point too, although again, I can see why she did what she did too.
[Spoiler] "I woke up to searing pain. While unconscious, they had abused and tortured me...then tried to bury their sins." [/spoiler]
It"s pretty obvious that they stabed her, tough she were dead and then buried the corpse.
No farmer would EVER get horny with a Drow, they would be to scared for that.
They think that drows are demons ... And to be honest, mostly all of then are ... Lol
The dialogue was pretty clear. They realized she was a dark elf, ambushed her, did what they wanted, then figured they'd get away with it by making the body vanish. Even without a confirmation I believe her as she's not a liar. Sure, she's not a pretty princess of the white city of goodness, but she never gave off the vibe that she needed to lie constantly to get what she wanted. It's like Neil Gaiman's Lucifer, 'Why would I lie? The truth is far easier to use to get what I want,'
Those farmers deserved what they got. In fact, I wish I could go to Beregost and burn their houses down just for being the prats they were.
With a demon? Not likely.
I don't like to get into DnD alignment discussions, but since people keep mentioning the "evil" of Umberlee, I think it's worth mentioning again what the whole point of the Deity is. She may terrorise sailors, and her (thematically female, of course) church may extort payment from janners, but that's what THE SEA is all about.
Umberlee represents the capricious nature of the sea and the dangers that must be overcome to survive and make a living from it. If Umberlee was to be destroyed, the sea would not necessarily be safer under the new holder of her portfolio. I would expect that should the new god be a benevolent one they would change to match their new role, perhaps in the way Kelemvor had to cease being so nice.
The sea doesn't need an evil god to be a bad place. My grandparents' house used to be full of nautical art and paraphernalia. Take a look at a representation of 'the sea', and there will probably begreen, tridents, mermaids and skulls involved. "For those in peril on the sea" is one of the great hymns of my childhood.
I mean, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it's really somewhat ambiguous about the matters, so might as well not draw any more conclusions than what we heard. All we know for sure is that they hurt her quite a bit.
Rape is not a universal force of nature that's automatically brought upon every helpless female everywhere ever, you know.
I just took Shar-Teel with my party to go kill Tenya and nothing unusual happened. In fact, Shar-Teel chunked the girl herself. I'm going to play through a couple more variations - let Dorn chunk her, listen to her story, go back to the fishermen, then go chunk her - but I'm leaning toward it being a bug.
-Blue
To bad, it was so cool that i tough it was a feature...