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Khalid-Jaheira or Minsc-Dynaheir [from a newbie]

Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
I am a beginner playing a Half-elven Multiclass Fighter/Mage. Lawful Good. 18/55-10-17-17-12-15+2[Algernon'sCloak]. I am reading here that Elven would have been a better choice for Race and am wondering whether my Dex score, which makes casting spells before I get Gauntlets of Dexterity mostly out of the question at Low levels, was such a good idea... Anyhow, I am playing with Imoen [intending to DualClass her at @Level 3
Jaheira-Khalid and Kivan. I am planning to recruit Ajantis and later Coran when Imoen becomes Mage. My question is whether to trade Jaheira-Khalid for Minsc-Dynaheir and will I regret not having Branwen??? Also considering rerolling and just playing with Imoen until we finish with Marl and Firebeard in Beregost.
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  • davendaven Member Posts: 112
    Minsc is awesome.
  • MykraMykra Member Posts: 252
    edited February 2013
    No, the DEX won't ruin your ability to spellcast, but you also shouldn't spellcast in melee much anyways.

    Personally, I use the Fighter/Mage's arcane casting ability purely in a support role. Using buff and debuff spells like Glitterdust, Haste, Slow, etc...level one is usually full of armor spells until I get archmage robes or the elven chain, a magic missle or three for interrupts and most of my other spells are defensive ones like Mirror Image and Stoneskin. I tend to have another arcane caster who lobs the fireballs and skull traps for me while my F/M chops people up with a sword.

    Your stats aren't optimal, but they aren't bad either. Eventually Armor Class quits mattering and instead it becomes how well you mitigate damage completely - which you will do fine with things like Mirror Image and Stoneskin. You will end up with 19, 11, 18, 18, 15, 16 as your stats by the end of the game if you grab all the books, so you'll do fine.

    Edit: Whoops, forgot the question.

    Personally, when it's time to get Ajantis, just run Khalid into an Ankheg to die in the same zone, then kick his corpse out of the party, Jaheira takes it rather well and will stick along.

    So, F/M Charname, Ajantis, Imoen, Jaheira, Coran, and then either recruit Branwen like you wanted, or kill off Dynaheir and just take Minsc along.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited February 2013
    I like casting a bit during melee with a F/M, myself. It adds to the excitement. That said, I don't overdo it. It's safest when using spells with a quick casting time (1 or 2, though you can get away with 3). Sleep, Charm Person, Blindness, Horror are all quite safe to cast in combat when AC is in negative territory--which it will be with Armor and Shield cast, and eventually with the robe of the archmagi.

    Really, both pairs (Minsc & Dyna and Khalid & Jaheira) are fine. Minsc is very entertaining and colorful, and he's one of the strongest damage-dealers on the frontline wielding a two-handed sword. Khalid is no slouch either with Bastard sword and big shield. Jaheira gives you healing and can melee effectively (and you can now have her dual-wield clubs). Dynaheir is probably the least interesting of the four personality-wise. But having a full mage in the party is great. You won't miss that much if you pass on Branwen. She's fine but she's more of a B list character.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    OK, thanks. I am liking the idea more of playing through Marl and Firebeard quest in Beregost[before visiting FAI] with only Charname and Imoen since both will benefit from the extra XP. Is that something reasonable for Level I Fighter/Mage? Also, if I lower the Difficulty while travelling and then raise to a high level once I get to Beregost, how will that affect the XP payouts? BTW, playing TotSC from BG1. Also, I could probably get by without either Dynaheir or Branwen since Charname and Imoen will become decent Mages eventually and Janaheir and Ajantis will have some Healing/Cleric powers.. ty [I can see that part of the fun is letting all these possibilities simmer in the mind rather than trying to nail it down from the beginning...;)
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  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited February 2013
    Do not listen to the poor devils (bastards ? ^_^) telling you to drop Khalid from your party.

    You can have Khalid AND Ajantis.

    Khalid is awesome. He has a good dex (16) and a very good constitution (17).

    You can have him either tank or use the bow (best solution is to give him *** in long swords and ** in long bows).
    Just give him gauntlets of strength (for 18/00 that you'll find later) and he is the best.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited February 2013
    I'm currently working up a guide for using Imoen which breaks down distribution of Thieving skill points at each level that she could be dual-classed. Because when to dual her really depends on party composition and how you wish to use her as Thief.

    For instance, if you've got the Thief skills covered by other party members and all you're after from Imoen is spellcasting, then feel free to dual at level 2. Or if you want to pour Imoen's skill points into stealth and optimize her backstabbing ability, then dual at level 5 so she'll get the backstab modifier x3. Etc.

    This does require some planning and knowledge of other party member Thieves' skills. Coran, for example, comes with a pretty dismal skill point score in Find Traps. Safana comes with a high Open Locks score. And so on.

    You may wish to plan also when to tackle Durlag's Tower, if that's on your agenda for the game. So depending on how you divvy up Thief duties amongst other Thieves you can plan Imoen's skill point distribution accordingly.

    And remember, the longer you wait to dual Imoen, the longer it will take to get her Thieving skills back. That's part of your overall calculations for the party's Thieving skills as well.

    The guide should be completed in a couple days.

    For the time being, Imoen's stats at Thief 1:

    Imoen at level 1
    Pick Pockets 25
    Open Locks 25
    Find Traps 35
    Move Silently 35
    Hide in Shadows 15
    Detect Illusion 0
    Set Traps 5

    and she receives 25 Thief skill points per level.

    The following item will improve her stealth ability:

    Boots of Stealth
    raises Move Silently skill by 20
    raises Hide in Shadows skill by 15

    without disabling her spellcasting ability.
  • NolrogNolrog Member Posts: 16
    I have both in my party, but if I had to choose one, I'd take Minsc in a second. Khalid is such a p***y with his comments, it drives me nuts.
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    Since Khalid starts with 2 stars in Long Sword, he's better off staying with that weapon. Adding a 3d star to Long Sword makes him a lot better (emphasis on a lot) in melee. I had huge success with him here.

    Jaheira - she had the best AC in the party when I gave her gauntlets for 18 DEX and ankheg armor. Essentially, I used her as a frontline fighter with very good success.

    I find them to be a strong pairing. Better than Minsc and Dynaheir? That all depends on your party's strengths and weaknesses. For instance, if you don't need a mage, I'm not sure the Minsc combination is best (because they take two slots). I am currently playing with two mages in the party and it's working well for me, but there are other ways to approach this. For all party lineups, I'd recommend seeing what needs your party has and picking NPCs to balance out those weaknesses.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    Dear unknowing newster:

    I am a beginner playing a Half-elven Multiclass Fighter/Mage. Lawful Good. 18/55-10-17-17-12-15+2[Algernon'sCloak].

    Golden rule nr 1: always dump charisma to maximize relevant stats

    My question is whether to trade Jaheira-Khalid

    Golden rule nr 2: always kill Khalid

    for Minsc-Dynaheir

    Golden rule nr 3: always kill Dynaheir




    Now we got that cleared up:

    I am reading here that Elven would have been a better choice for Race and am wondering whether my Dex score, which makes casting spells before I get Gauntlets of Dexterity mostly out of the question at Low levels, was such a good idea...

    Yes elf would have been a better choice, since Fighter/Mage should use a bow so the extra dex would have helped.

    Anyhow, I am playing with Imoen [intending to DualClass her at @Level 3

    Dual her at lvl 5 or 6

    and will I regret not having Branwen?

    Nah... can't imagine you would

    Also considering rerolling and just playing with Imoen until we finish with Marl and Firebeard in Beregost.

    wut?
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808

    Golden Rule #4: Play how you like it, not how someone on a forum dictates you to play.

    True words

  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552

    Golden Rule #4: Play how you like it, not how someone on a forum dictates you to play.

    Seriously, it depends a lot on your taste. Some people (myself included) find Khalid's voice horrible and annoying, others dislike Jaheira's attitude, nearly everyone dislikes Dynaheir. But that doesn't mean you have to, as all can be made useful if you try enough.

    You already have Kivan for ranged, and likely also Coran. You plan on getting Ajantis to tank. Your basics are covered. You'll have Imoen and charname as mages. You need a healer more than another caster, so for that alone, I'd say switch out Minsc and Dynaheir and keep Jaheira. Or trade her for Branwen.

    Sorry man, but rule nr 2 and 3 are pretty much set
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    As this topic shows, there are people who find Khalid useful. Roleplayers who are good aligned are also unlikely to kill Dynaheir. Maybe trade her for a different mage, but rescue her nonetheless. But then, maybe it might be news to you that this is a RPG. If so, sorry for the spoiler.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552

    As this topic shows, there are people who find Khalid useful. Roleplayers who are good aligned are also unlikely to kill Dynaheir. Maybe trade her for a different mage, but rescue her nonetheless. But then, maybe it might be news to you that this is a RPG. If so, sorry for the spoiler.

    cool story bro
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Not nearly as cool as using stone age memes.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    Good discussion. Just the kind of stuff I was wondering about. On this first-time run I kinda think I will enjoy maintaining RPG integrity as Lawful Good, given that Khalid is considered playable, more than killing him off for the sake of Minsc and then offing Dynaheir also, particularly as I will have Ajantis to tank. Had not thought of Jaheira as Melee contributor but, if we pickpocket Drizzt +5Scimitar.... That begins to sound more like Charname should play as Mage/Archer without armor once I get the Gauntlets. On the other hand I notice that Jaheira but not Khalid is a continuing character in BG2 so Devs seem to support at least one NPCs tragic demise as a mainstream storyline... Then I can always go hardcore on later runs with maybe some early game power-levelling in Basilisk Map. I get that Thief abilities will be critical after Imoen duals. Maybe that would be the time for getting Korax to help with Basilisks and XP mining. Seems to me that I want Imoen more for Open Locks and Find Traps since her Str is low and I have lots of Melee power. For pickpocket skill I probably will tolerate save/reload when it is a really necessary tactic. But then I may be underestimating Backstab [this is not only my BG baptism but also first ADD experience --even though I have been interested in the whole genre as a Storyteller for many years]
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    @Eadwyn_G8keeper

    Backstab is extremely powerful, but not with Imoen (unless you're artificially boosting her strength). Imoen is almost always better as a support thief/archer, a role at which she excels regardless of whether or not you dual her to Mage. If you're playing Good and keeping Imoen around, I'd forget about backstabs until your next game or BG2.

    Pickpocketing is completely unnecessary for progression through the storyline, and with so few notable targets for the skill, it's mostly useless without metagame knowledge. And when you do want to pickpocket, there are potions available to raise your score by 40%, which is usually enough if you are okay with reloading upon failures.

    As a fighter/mage, you definitely shouldn't be wearing actual armor unless you're still at a very low level. Get some mage robes, and consider spells such as Armor or Shield if you plan on meleeing. Your PC will be a good archer with the Dexterity gauntlets, but they might also be useful for, say, Ajantis to tank with. At this point, you might be better off making your PC a melee combatant, and use him as a flank-attacker while not casting.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    It will be interesting to see how various players consider different ploys --such as save/reload for Pickpocket or Melicamp 'chickenator' episode --'cheesy'(?) but would not blink at going with dump stats for Wisdom or Charisma. Balancing story elements and power-gaming is part of what interests me about the whole RPG memescape.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    Madhax said:

    @Eadwyn_G8keeper

    Backstab is extremely powerful, but not with Imoen (unless you're artificially boosting her strength). Imoen is almost always better as a support thief/archer, a role at which she excels regardless of whether or not you dual her to Mage. If you're playing Good and keeping Imoen around, I'd forget about backstabs until your next game or BG2.

    Pickpocketing is completely unnecessary for progression through the storyline, and with so few notable targets for the skill, it's mostly useless without metagame knowledge. And when you do want to pickpocket, there are potions available to raise your score by 40%, which is usually enough if you are okay with reloading upon failures.

    As a fighter/mage, you definitely shouldn't be wearing actual armor unless you're still at a very low level. Get some mage robes, and consider spells such as Armor or Shield if you plan on meleeing. Your PC will be a good archer with the Dexterity gauntlets, but they might also be useful for, say, Ajantis to tank with. At this point, you might be better off making your PC a melee combatant, and use him as a flank-attacker while not casting.

    ~~ Agree about Charname as flank attacker, since I have Kivan-Imoen/Coran as archers already...and then at higher levels I will have Armor/Shield spell and eventually Archmage robe-so I ditto giving Gauntlets of Dex. to Ajantis/Tank. So now, it seems like I have an empty space in party until Coran is recruited so I will probably go with Branwen for awhile with the possibility of ditching Kivan and Branwen for Minsc and Dynaheir [after Coran can step into Archer role]. Cheers!
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    Enjoy!
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    @IkMarc do the world a favor and shush. You provided your opinion and that's cool, but your continual, thoughtless "witty retorts" to @KidCarnival heavily border on trolling.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    My bad. Somehow I slipped into a 6 NPC Companions mode.. Getting Coran as soon as we can kill a Wyvern sounds attractive. He will be fine as Archer so having 2 Thiefs until Imoen Duals should not be a problem and I will be able to put his Propoints into Trap Finding.. Then maging Imoen at Lvl 4. Tanking Khalid with Gauntlets of Strength so I can keep Gauntlets of Dex for myself. Charname [armored] and Khalid as front-line [Jaheira flanking] with Coran and Imoen as Archers. The question is if I recruit Jaheira/Khalid/Ajantis/Imoen in early game [before Naskel] will we be strong enough to kill a Wyvern for Coran. And will Jaheira endure that delay?? That would make Kivan unnecessary I think
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Quartz said:

    @IkMarc do the world a favor and shush. You provided your opinion and that's cool, but your continual, thoughtless "witty retorts" to @KidCarnival heavily border on trolling.

    To put an end to it: Here is my reply to every posting he makes in the future (multiple choice): http://clean.alltheragefaces.com/


    @Eadwyn_G8keeper: Might be a good idea to take Kivan along for the wyvern, if that somehow works with your party. Killing wyverns with still vulnurable party members is likely a bit less risky with his ranged skills. Plus, if you don't need him in the final party, you can have him frontline and take the poison and it's not a loss if he dies.

  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    One last combo idea and then I will tiptoe away. Early game Jaheira[scimitarred]-Khalid-Imoen-Kivan-Branwen with Charname [armored] sharing front-line melee with Khalid. No Ajantis or Coran. Then retiring Kivan and Branwen, keeping Imoen as Thief only, recruiting Minsc and Dynaheir with Charname [having Gauntlets of Dexterity + Armor/Shield spell] as supporting Archer or Mage. Eventually getting Gauntlets of Strngth for Khalid [not sure where they are yet]. ~If Charname had higher Dex I could see Ajantis but I think my PC wants those Gauntlets. As for Coran, I gather that his ***Bow Mastery is partially balance by Kivan's Composite Long Bow ability and the difficulty of foreseeing how Dualing Imoen works out in Play, makes him an option for future playthroughs. Thnx for ur comments. Much Appreciated
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    edited February 2013

    Golden Rule #4: Play how you like it, not how someone on a forum dictates you to play.

    But then, maybe it might be news to you that this is a RPG. If so, sorry for the spoiler.

    Quartz said:

    @IkMarc do the world a favor and shush. You provided your opinion and that's cool, but your continual, thoughtless "witty retorts" to @KidCarnival heavily border on trolling.

    Not nearly as cool as using stone age memes.



    And I'm the one making continuous "witty retorts"? Go hug a werebear.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552

    Quartz said:

    @IkMarc do the world a favor and shush. You provided your opinion and that's cool, but your continual, thoughtless "witty retorts" to @KidCarnival heavily border on trolling.

    To put an end to it: Here is my reply to every posting he makes in the future (multiple choice): http://clean.alltheragefaces.com/

    wow you are so cool right now
  • MykraMykra Member Posts: 252

    Do not listen to the poor devils (bastards ? ^_^) telling you to drop Khalid from your party.

    You can have Khalid AND Ajantis.

    Khalid is awesome. He has a good dex (16) and a very good constitution (17).

    I actually am a huge fan of Khalid, although it took me growing up since the original release to kind of respect him as a NPC. He has a stutter and isn't the bravest, but he wades right in there and keeps trying to do the right thing. And he turns into a monster of a tank for you and the NPC project really fleshes him out and gives a reason to why he's so shaky.

    However, I couldn't think of any way really to get the combination the original poster wanted without running some people in their britches towards a nasty monster. I think his Fighter/Mage with Ajantis, Imoen, Branwen or Minsc, Jaheira, and Coran would make a very solid party.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @IkMarc: Pick an answer and stop derailing topics.
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