Puts on moderator hat: Sort of a gentle reminder here... It's okay to have heated disagreement about any subject, but please don't let it degenerate into ad hominem attacks or insults--which can often easily happen (slippery slope and all that). Stick to the substance of the argument and remain civil. If you think someone is out of line in their behavior PM a moderator.
Not that we've crossed that line here, just reminding all that there is a line.
hmm if you are playing good Khalid can be the best tank ( in vanilla BG by far) with 16 Dex and 17 con. then give him gauntlets to set str to 18/00 with 3 pips in longsword and using a shield. Hes pretty unstoppable. Khalid and Jaheria are actually 2 of the best NPCs you have in your party with the right gear because they have reallly really good Con which gives them lots of HP . and most other NPCs have horrible con.
The main problem with Dynaheir is that she's the *only good-aligned mage*. I started playing BG1 as a kid and mainly played good-aligned tanks with appropriate parties. Due to Dynaheir I just didn't realise how devestating enchantment and summoning spells were until BG2. Sleep is a great spell at the start of BG1 and stays effective well into the midgame - she misses it. No Glitterdust. No Greater Malison. No Emotion: Hopelessness. She missed the debuffs that make mages tick in BG1.
Neera and Xan, and to a lesser extent Quayle do take the edge off this but all have their respective downsides. If you're playing a mage multi yourself you can cast the necessary stuff, but Dynaheir's specialist mage school sucks.
hmm if you are playing good Khalid can be the best tank ( in vanilla BG by far) with 16 Dex and 17 con. then give him gauntlets to set str to 18/00 with 3 pips in longsword and using a shield. Hes pretty unstoppable. Khalid and Jaheria are actually 2 of the best NPCs you have in your party with the right gear because they have reallly really good Con which gives them lots of HP . and most other NPCs have horrible con.
I personally dont like him though.
Well, having recently sparred with some other forum members on the subject of which NPCs are most effective on the front line, I found some players are emphatic that "tank" specifically refers to a character who can absorb damage, or is relatively impervious to it. I can't argue against that. If you want to use the Urban Dictionary as a reference, let's say, that is true. And Kagain is the undisputed king of tankitude in BG1/EE. I would say the next most formidable at avoiding damage might be Viconia wearing Ankheg armor, which gets her AC to -6 even before any buffs.
Myself, prior to being schooled on the terminology I'd always used "tank" more loosely to refer to to a frontline meleer in general. But anyway, I regard the overall effectiveness of a melee character to include both the capacity to dole out damage (a so-called "damage-dealer") and to avoid getting hit or absorb damage (so-called "tank"). So the determination of who performs best on the front line overall, isn't as neat imho, as simply who has the lowest AC/highest HP.
But at the end of the day, getting enjoyment from the game can be about more than just deriving maximum effectiveness from the characters. It can be about creativity and seeking fresh challenges. Eg, I've had more fun playing a crew of specialist mages that I restricted to casting only their own specialization school's spells, than a lot of standard games I've played. That's certainly not the most effective way I could have played them. But it provided a challenge that was really fun (for me anyway). In the same spirit, I've put some unconventional choices of NPCs on the frontline and did my best to figure out how I could use them most effectively as such. And that was kind of fun in it's own way too. Anyway, that's a subjective experience thing, rather than an objective, mathematical calculation.
BTW don't forget about wands, you can use these wearing armour (and scrolls for that matter, if you have spare ones). The wand of sleep is very effective early on.
If worried about your AC the Shield Amulet is good.
What does speak FOR Dynaheir is her 16 con. From the mages, only she and Edwin have good con and I consider that their true power on lower levels. It doesn't really matter that Edwin has 1 spell more; he runs out of spells before a fight is over like everyone else, even with evermemory. All mages come with stupid melee proficiencies, so on low levels, they will not be of any use after the spells are gone and what really counts is that the rest of the party doesn't have to watch out for them all the time. The ability to survive more than one blow is worth more than a spell slot for the first levels.
@Lemernis: Viconia is good at avoiding damage, but she doesn't deal much either. I currently use Xzar as cleric - his low con (10 with tome, 11 with buckler) isn't a problem; he has the strength to carry medium shield if neccessary, ankegh armor, helm... unbuffed at -5AC. Viconia may get -6 with her higher dex, but Xzar also deals some damage with his strength and dex stats. But neither of them is an option for a good aligned party.
@KidCarnival Yeah, that's exactly the sort of distinction that I agree with. "Tanking" isn't the sole criterion for who to put on the front line. I want damage-dealing ability every bit as much. So if I have Viconia in the party I'm probably going to use her on the frontline. But I'll appreciate a character more on the frontline who can dole out heavy damage.
You made a Fighter/Mage. I think two mages are enough in a party. Three mages (You, Imoen and Dynaheir) are overkill and you need three times the scrolls.
If you want the canon team, pick Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dynaheir. It's pretty viable. Not optimal but they get the job done well enough. Just keep Imoen as a pure Thief and you have all the bases covered, no need to choose.
@Lemernis: I wouldn't really call Xzar a good tank, but I do use him as a frontliner in my current game and am surprised how well it works. In the past, I dualed him and still kept him in the back row, gave him some stuff to make his stone throwing a bit better, but never got "second squishiest NPC after Xan" out of my head. This time, I was joking with a friend about an all-squishy party and who would tank, and went with Xzar due to his strength/dex. So I treat him more like a pure cleric this time and unless he's caught off guard while using sling, he's not taking more hits/damage than Viconia or Branwen would in his place.
Thanks for the Discussion. @Strayed Monkey, @Corvino, @Swords not Words, @Eudaemonium, @Lemernis, @Oxford Guy, @Kid Carnival, @Archaos, et al... Very helpful. >First--re Intel-14: It is an inherent gameplay anomaly in BG's attempt to transport ADD rules into an Online format that, at least in Single Player mode, a Mage or F/M doesnt need Max Wis in the way required in normal RPG unless playing with self-imposed Min Reroll goals. [BGEE Devs might come up with a sort of Golden Hall or Valhalla Icon which such purists can rightfully display. Just a thought] With a general interest in the art of Game Design [~I think it will in future be recognized as a form of Art rivalling Theater, Fiction, etc~], dedicated rerolling with a 60% chance of writing a scroll into my Mage Book at Int-14 is IMHO a RealPolitik approach for a first run. It might be argued that it nicely balances the unreality of being Gorion's 20yr old foster-son [whoever PC turns out to be] with zero knowledge of BG realities, other than what some might know from exploring Forgotten Realms ADD. In future run-throughs I would probably feel more restricted to the occasional Potion of Genius instead of default reroll delirium. I could see [with a 90 roll] taking 1pt from Con and boosting Int to a 65% chance-but then I would also feel more like myself as Story-Center with Charisma @12+. But on the whole getting the 18/99 Str for my first run is a big WOOT!! I do wish I had loaded Sleep instead of Blind as my first spell and will try to get the Wand of Sleep fer sure if it is in BG/TotSC. Will be trying out today a strategy for Tarnesh of starting w/o Armor and hitting him with Blind while Imoen tries to disrupt his casting with Dart while I re-up Armor to finish him before the Guards do. We were succesful already once with normal encounter but the Guards got the Kill while Charname was panicked and Imoen was 40% damaged. Think I should have stuck with War Hammer from Candlekeep for its disruptive speed instead of Mace. My Midgame plan is to use the well-known +2WarHammer as my Melee weapon rather than LongSword with Jaheira as only Healer. >re recruiting Minsc-Dynaheir...OK, I concede that is the main Storyline w/ Imoen as Pure Thief. As F/M I can cover for Dynaheir's missing spells, so why not..!? Plenty of time to explore other characters later. Enough Chat--the game is afoot!
>First--re Intel-14: It is an inherent gameplay anomaly in BG's attempt to transport ADnD rules into an Online format that, at least in Single Player mode, a Mage or F/M doesnt need Max Wis in the way required in normal RPG unless playing with self-imposed Min Reroll goals. [BGEE Devs might come up with a sort of Golden Hall or Valhalla Icon which such purists can rightfully display. Just a thought]
With a general interest in the art of Game Design [~I think it will in future be recognized as a form of Art rivalling Theater, Fiction, etc~], dedicated rerolling with a 60% chance of writing a scroll into my Mage Book at Int-14 is IMHO a RealPolitik approach for a first run.
It might be argued that it nicely balances the unreality of being Gorion's 20yr old foster-son [whoever PC turns out to be] with zero knowledge of BG realities, other than what some might know from exploring Forgotten Realms ADD.
In future run-throughs I would probably feel more restricted to the occasional Potion of Genius instead of default reroll delirium. I could see [with a 90 roll] taking 1pt from Con and boosting Int to a 65% chance-but then I would also feel more like myself as Story-Center with Charisma @12+.
But on the whole getting the 18/99 Str for my first run is a big WOOT!! I do wish I had loaded Sleep instead of Blind as my first spell and will try to get the Wand of Sleep fer sure if it is in BG/TotSC.
Will be trying out today a strategy for Tarnesh of starting w/o Armor and hitting him with Blind while Imoen tries to disrupt his casting with Dart while I re-up Armor to finish him before the Guards do.
We were succesful already once with normal encounter but the Guards got the Kill while Charname was panicked and Imoen was 40% damaged. Think I should have stuck with War Hammer from Candlekeep for its disruptive speed instead of Mace.
My Midgame plan is to use the well-known +2WarHammer as my Melee weapon rather than LongSword with Jaheira as only Healer.
>re recruiting Minsc-Dynaheir...OK, I concede that is the main Storyline w/ Imoen as Pure Thief. As F/M I can cover for Dynaheir's missing spells, so why not..!? Plenty of time to explore other characters later.
@Archaos, ty... Agree totally. All's well and just finished with Ogrillons and a certain letter. So far Khalid, Jaheira melee and Imoen's archery are allowing me to cast MM and then re-armor OK. Cheers!
I like Khalid and Jaheira. I either roll with them in my party for the duration, or part ways with them after the Nashkel mines wherein their debt of honor to Gorion (to protect his only child) is fulfilled, and the verbal contract between Jaheira and Charname (to investigate the crisis at the mines) has been completed. I see it as parting ways on good terms.
Jaheira and Khalid will continue to investigate the findings uncovered within the mines. Charname and Imoen set out to adventure of their own free will, and look into the assassination attempts on Charname.
Both duos would meet again while investigation the iron shortage, to either join forces once more or exchange information and pleasantries.
I am perhaps the only soul who does not share in the universal praise for Minsc.* It stems from my first playthrough, way back when, where he would occasionally go berserk during battle and destroy every enemy before then turning on the party. I was unsure how to combat this initially, and found it a real pain regardless of that. He then decided that the group had taken too long to reach Dynaheir and turned on us for the last time, where he was cut down for his treachery and his stupidity.
Dynaheir was okay. I didn't particularly like her voice set or her opinions. I preferred Xan, even with him suffering from depression, and found him infinitely more useful in combat. I liked to use spells such as sleep, hold person, blind, etc. I had warriors and rogues to do the damage.
*I used Minsc on a later playthrough and had a much better experience, seeing a different side to him; a fiercely loyal warrior who will lay down his life for you if you would only see the urgency in his quest to rescue Dynaheir. Once you do that, he will stand between anyone and anything to obstruct your path. Great character.
@Eadwyn_G8keeper Pickpocketing is completely unnecessary for progression through the storyline, and with so few notable targets for the skill, it's mostly useless without metagame knowledge. And when you do want to pickpocket, there are potions available to raise your score by 40%, which is usually enough if you are okay with reloading upon failures.
I actually use the pickpocketing skills much more for shop-lifting (i.e. stealing from stores) than for pick-pocketing NPCs, can be very effective, especially for a Bard. Black Lilly's in Baldur's Gate is the only place that will buy shop-lifted goods, though.
@RnR Clown: What race-class-alignment does your Charname usually adopt and are you playing with a 90-92 Roll, anything better than Imoen 88+, etc.?? I like your approach to the game and kinda feel the same. I am still working on putting together in leisurely fashion my first run and almost allowed Khalid to fall in an ill-fated encounter with a particularly nasty wolf I hardly expected to encounter so close to the Temple on the Eastern boundary of Beregost... But, naaah and besides there were a couple of other tweaks I wanted to try so I rolled up another game. Now I am implementing a Storyline which designates Khalid as associating more or less behind the scenes with Firebead Elvenhair and undertaking various strategic and perhaps crucial missions which take him out of the Party in a positive manner for various periods of time. This allows getting to know Minsc and Dynaheir and possibly even Edwin.
My Chapter 3+ party looks like it will be: Charname [Halfelven FM-CG], Ajantis, Jaheira, Kivan, Imoen [Dual] and Branwen or Viconia....
Right now, I am running Driiana, a human female fighter, Imoen, Minsc, Branwen, Dynaheir and Rasaad as my party, and I just finished the Cloudpeaks. I am currently in Beregost and have just picked up my set of Ankheg armor from Taerom Fuiruim. Most of the battles weren't hard, except for the last one, And with a little magic and some healing, that was doable. So far, my hardest struggle was actually *getting* to the Cloud Peaks. :P I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get there.
@Eadwyn_G8keeper I opted for a human swashbuckler. I think I went with a roll of 89. Let's see if I can get a screenshot on the go.
I tend to implement my own little storylines and explanations here and there, to justify the recruitment or the removal of various characters. I like the aspect of meeting multiple characters and traveling together to meet common goals, or perhaps just safety in numbers while going from one destination to the next, and then parting ways (on good terms) when time or needs dictate.
Jaheira and Khalid come under the category of shared goals and a verbal contract of honor to the memory of their friend Gorion. After both have been achieved, it's perfectly acceptable that an amicable parting of ways may come about, either permanent (for the duration of the game) or temporary (until the next chapter).
Montaron and Xzar, on the other-hand, could be seen as a recruitment of necessity considering Charname's circumstances; injured and ill-equipped to make an unknown journey through the wilderness to the Friendly Arm Inn. Charname (depending on class) may benefit greatly from their help. After achieving the journey to the Friendly Arm it's then a decision of breaking ones word and parting ways with Montaron and Xzar on the spot, considering their alignment and borderline deception to bait Charname into enlisting their services, or keeping ones word and putting up with their crass behavior until the mines have been cleared. Unless of course Charname politely chooses to follow his own path upon the first encounter with Montaron and Xzar, circumventing their entire existence.
Comments
Not that we've crossed that line here, just reminding all that there is a line.
I personally dont like him though.
Neera and Xan, and to a lesser extent Quayle do take the edge off this but all have their respective downsides. If you're playing a mage multi yourself you can cast the necessary stuff, but Dynaheir's specialist mage school sucks.
Where's the Canon!?
Myself, prior to being schooled on the terminology I'd always used "tank" more loosely to refer to to a frontline meleer in general. But anyway, I regard the overall effectiveness of a melee character to include both the capacity to dole out damage (a so-called "damage-dealer") and to avoid getting hit or absorb damage (so-called "tank"). So the determination of who performs best on the front line overall, isn't as neat imho, as simply who has the lowest AC/highest HP.
But at the end of the day, getting enjoyment from the game can be about more than just deriving maximum effectiveness from the characters. It can be about creativity and seeking fresh challenges. Eg, I've had more fun playing a crew of specialist mages that I restricted to casting only their own specialization school's spells, than a lot of standard games I've played. That's certainly not the most effective way I could have played them. But it provided a challenge that was really fun (for me anyway). In the same spirit, I've put some unconventional choices of NPCs on the frontline and did my best to figure out how I could use them most effectively as such. And that was kind of fun in it's own way too. Anyway, that's a subjective experience thing, rather than an objective, mathematical calculation.
If worried about your AC the Shield Amulet is good.
@Lemernis: Viconia is good at avoiding damage, but she doesn't deal much either. I currently use Xzar as cleric - his low con (10 with tome, 11 with buckler) isn't a problem; he has the strength to carry medium shield if neccessary, ankegh armor, helm... unbuffed at -5AC. Viconia may get -6 with her higher dex, but Xzar also deals some damage with his strength and dex stats. But neither of them is an option for a good aligned party.
If you want the canon team, pick Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dynaheir. It's pretty viable. Not optimal but they get the job done well enough. Just keep Imoen as a pure Thief and you have all the bases covered, no need to choose.
Your comment was not much of a spoiler for me, since I couldn't read that wall of text without making my eyes hurt. No offense.
Breaking it down into paragraphs would help others read it easier and more likely to give you advice, I think.
Good luck.
Jaheira and Khalid will continue to investigate the findings uncovered within the mines. Charname and Imoen set out to adventure of their own free will, and look into the assassination attempts on Charname.
Both duos would meet again while investigation the iron shortage, to either join forces once more or exchange information and pleasantries.
I am perhaps the only soul who does not share in the universal praise for Minsc.* It stems from my first playthrough, way back when, where he would occasionally go berserk during battle and destroy every enemy before then turning on the party. I was unsure how to combat this initially, and found it a real pain regardless of that. He then decided that the group had taken too long to reach Dynaheir and turned on us for the last time, where he was cut down for his treachery and his stupidity.
Dynaheir was okay. I didn't particularly like her voice set or her opinions. I preferred Xan, even with him suffering from depression, and found him infinitely more useful in combat. I liked to use spells such as sleep, hold person, blind, etc. I had warriors and rogues to do the damage.
*I used Minsc on a later playthrough and had a much better experience, seeing a different side to him; a fiercely loyal warrior who will lay down his life for you if you would only see the urgency in his quest to rescue Dynaheir. Once you do that, he will stand between anyone and anything to obstruct your path. Great character.
My Chapter 3+ party looks like it will be:
Charname [Halfelven FM-CG], Ajantis, Jaheira, Kivan, Imoen [Dual] and Branwen or Viconia....
I tend to implement my own little storylines and explanations here and there, to justify the recruitment or the removal of various characters. I like the aspect of meeting multiple characters and traveling together to meet common goals, or perhaps just safety in numbers while going from one destination to the next, and then parting ways (on good terms) when time or needs dictate.
Jaheira and Khalid come under the category of shared goals and a verbal contract of honor to the memory of their friend Gorion. After both have been achieved, it's perfectly acceptable that an amicable parting of ways may come about, either permanent (for the duration of the game) or temporary (until the next chapter).
Montaron and Xzar, on the other-hand, could be seen as a recruitment of necessity considering Charname's circumstances; injured and ill-equipped to make an unknown journey through the wilderness to the Friendly Arm Inn. Charname (depending on class) may benefit greatly from their help. After achieving the journey to the Friendly Arm it's then a decision of breaking ones word and parting ways with Montaron and Xzar on the spot, considering their alignment and borderline deception to bait Charname into enlisting their services, or keeping ones word and putting up with their crass behavior until the mines have been cleared. Unless of course Charname politely chooses to follow his own path upon the first encounter with Montaron and Xzar, circumventing their entire existence.
This goes on and on for me, with every character.