@shawne I really honestly think that people were, at least in most part, attached to Imoen. Most (if not half) of the people who played BG2 owned and played BG1. Granted there wasn't any type of real NPC interaction in the first game, doesn't change the fact that players at least know the back stories. Furthermore, you're comparing someone who (in-game) is your sister, to a guy you met in a dungeon. Through player relations, everyone will relate Imoen to a family member, and Yoshimo to a good friend. Usually, a family member takes presidence on who you save (I would probably say that this is true for most people). Just add to the fact that Imoen is a child like woman, and Yoshimo is a grown man, just adds to the fact that people would be more upset at Imoen's death than Yoshimo's.
@moopy has a good point about how most writers (if not all the good ones) don't like the dues ex machina. I fancy myself a writer since I was 15, and took several classes in High School and college, and the reason why writers normally don't like using it is this: a plotline then becomes unrealistic and unrelatable in 9 out of 10 times. In real life, the sparsity of situations where some random new knowledge came up right at the knick of time makes no sense, and adds absolutely nothing to the story except for the fact that now you can continue the story in a somewhat broken manner.
Granted, I don't think the ending to ToB is a huge dues ex machina, if it even is. You give up a piece of your soul to Sarevok so he may live again, this, I think, gives way to a greater attribute you posses, which is the choice to later give up that essence. Even moreso, think of the alternative. You either choose godhood or die? What kind of ending to a great game would that be? Solar says: "Great work, but if you refuse godhood, we must kill you, and Imoen HAS to die right now because there's no other way." It was hinted that you could drop your essence from the beginning of ToB AT LEAST, and even parts of SoA through dialogues with certain NPCs: "what will you do when...?"
Lastly, I really personally think that people would have been greatly upset, but the fact that people can BECOME upset at something that doesn't truly effect their normal lives, is something that is truly inspiring, so granted, there are people that can say, "Well they killed off Imoen, so I don't think I would have played anymore" is a false statement by most who make it. Part of the reason why so many people are connected to Imoen through ToB is partly because SHE MADE IT to ToB. Just think, if the original story proceeded to where she died in Spellhold, the anger and sadness for her character would still be there, but this "outrage" wouldn't nearly as grand, because no one had ever got the chance to try her out after she's saved.
@shawne I really honestly think that people were, at least in most part, attached to Imoen.
That's quite an assumption to make given that your second dialogue with her includes the option of permanently dismissing her, and the game plays out exactly the same whether she's with you or not. I'm sure many players included her - she was popular enough to warrant the rewrite, after all - but that's not indicative of an overwhelming majority having the same exact feelings towards her. Realistically speaking, in a game with over two dozen NPCs every player is going to pick their favorites, and Imoen might not always make the list.
Furthermore, you're comparing someone who (in-game) is your sister, to a guy you met in a dungeon.
Not quite: for a BG2 player experiencing this game in 2000, you don't know that Imoen is your sister until Irenicus tells you so at Spellhold. Prior to that, Yoshimo has a stronger connection to you for the simple reason that he's there and she isn't. It's the same principle that guides other NPC appearances in BG2: if you never took Coran or Safana with you in the first game, why would you care when they're killed in BG2?
Part of the reason why so many people are connected to Imoen through ToB is partly because SHE MADE IT to ToB. Just think, if the original story proceeded to where she died in Spellhold, the anger and sadness for her character would still be there, but this "outrage" wouldn't nearly as grand, because no one had ever got the chance to try her out after she's saved.
My point exactly - if Imoen had died at Spellhold, the only interaction the player could possibly have with her would be at Chateau Irenicus. If you want to create a powerful dramatic moment, you don't kill off a character who's been on-screen for all of five minutes.
I'm thinking shawne was WAAAAAAY to big a fan of the Imoen mod that made her a romance option.
And I only feel pity for Black Isle now that they were dealing with an army of these guys, that weren't just horribly justifying it after the fact, but had a chance at stopping it. Which they did.
@moopy: The fact that you have to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than engage in civil discussion makes you come off as rather pathetic - you might want to rethink your strategy before posting again.
The fact that you can't define what bad writing is properly and can't define writing terms properly. From text book examples, that I tried to explain to you but you didn't want to hear it... makes you not worth my time.
I engaged in civil discussion with you. I used textbook English and writing class examples and definitions, and you argued against well known facts because you don't want to admit it or are uneducated. You clearly don't have the background to determine what is considered good writing is and isn't. What you happen to prefer has no bearing on that. What I prefer has no bearing on that either.
I have no strategy with you any more than I would have a strategy with someone who was defending the Twilight series as good writing.
I would laugh at them, and move on.
Edit:
Also... on the sister loving thing... didn't deny it.
Wow, what an amazingly rude and pointless discussion. Overhaul won't be killing off Imoen. I for one am deeply thankful Bioware didn't either. If you want Imoen dead, you can always address that in YOUR playthrough, or take up modding and fix it yourself.
I completely couldn't care less about literary devices. I liked Imoen in both games and was very pleased to have her along for the full ride. Rescuing her from Spell Hold is one of my fondest memories from the first time I played BG2; and those sorts of heroic moments matter more to me than over-arching issues or plot subtleties . And in spite of the suggestion being poo-pooed above, I have quit more games than I have finished, and loosing an old friend is exactly the sort of thing that could have made BG2 just another one of those; instead of something wonderful and special. In a game where we all get to modify our own party, no one has to play with anyone they don't want, and there are even mods to keep Yoshimo if that matters to you.
I completely couldn't care less about literary devices. I liked Imoen in both games and was very pleased to have her along for the full ride.
Just to put us on the same page, THIS is a completely valid response.
Saying that YOU personally like it, and YOU personally think it is a great idea and are happy it happened. Is 100% valid.
Saying it is great writing to YOU is 100% valid.
Saying it would be considered good writing by a certain set of predefined standards that are used as textbook examples as what to do or what not to do isn't though.
My original point was I didn't personally like it, because it is bad writing based off of standards XYZ. (Ones that I didn't create) and that personally annoys me. Not enough to not play, 99% of it is a amazing story.
A response like yours is as valid as mine.
Saying that this wasn't a last minute decision that did lead to a tiny amount of BS and had to use a plot device that isn't accepted as best practice, is nonfactual and not a valid response.
Edit:
Oh, I'm more or less done here on this forum for other reasons, but since I may not get the chance to say it again.
Shawne still didn't deny thinking incest with Imoen was a good idea.
I agree that it might have been much more powerful and dramatic if Imoen had died, when the original game was released over ten years ago. Even without the revelation, the backstory of having grown up together is what makes people see her as a sister. But, now it's just accepted and established. All I would want an ideal world from the Enhanced Edition is expansion on some existing dialogues and quests, not changing anything from the original final game.
Anyway, the game has enough angst as it is; especially if you romance, well, anyone.
I remember many people thought Nalia was supposed to 'replace' Imoen, which I was surprised by. They're the same class etc, but I thought Aerie was more like Imoen in terms of personality. Better behaved of course, but a bit child-like and sometimes silly, missing her home, and generally more of a little sister type; I was surprised she was actually a romance option.
What about Viekang, the teleporting Bhaalspawn in Saradush? He lives O.o Perhaps he willingly gave up is Bhaalspawn essence as well, I barely remember him (had to look his name up).
Maybe he teleported to a pool of spikes and was killed?
I thought you were supposed to kill Imoen when she backtalks you outside of Candlekeep in BG1 and refuses to let you go without her? THEN when she shows up again in BG2 (obviously undead!) I thought you were supposed to kill her there too.
Comments
@moopy has a good point about how most writers (if not all the good ones) don't like the dues ex machina. I fancy myself a writer since I was 15, and took several classes in High School and college, and the reason why writers normally don't like using it is this: a plotline then becomes unrealistic and unrelatable in 9 out of 10 times. In real life, the sparsity of situations where some random new knowledge came up right at the knick of time makes no sense, and adds absolutely nothing to the story except for the fact that now you can continue the story in a somewhat broken manner.
Granted, I don't think the ending to ToB is a huge dues ex machina, if it even is. You give up a piece of your soul to Sarevok so he may live again, this, I think, gives way to a greater attribute you posses, which is the choice to later give up that essence. Even moreso, think of the alternative. You either choose godhood or die? What kind of ending to a great game would that be? Solar says: "Great work, but if you refuse godhood, we must kill you, and Imoen HAS to die right now because there's no other way." It was hinted that you could drop your essence from the beginning of ToB AT LEAST, and even parts of SoA through dialogues with certain NPCs: "what will you do when...?"
Lastly, I really personally think that people would have been greatly upset, but the fact that people can BECOME upset at something that doesn't truly effect their normal lives, is something that is truly inspiring, so granted, there are people that can say, "Well they killed off Imoen, so I don't think I would have played anymore" is a false statement by most who make it. Part of the reason why so many people are connected to Imoen through ToB is partly because SHE MADE IT to ToB. Just think, if the original story proceeded to where she died in Spellhold, the anger and sadness for her character would still be there, but this "outrage" wouldn't nearly as grand, because no one had ever got the chance to try her out after she's saved.
And I only feel pity for Black Isle now that they were dealing with an army of these guys, that weren't just horribly justifying it after the fact, but had a chance at stopping it. Which they did.
The fact that you can't define what bad writing is properly and can't define writing terms properly. From text book examples, that I tried to explain to you but you didn't want to hear it... makes you not worth my time.
I engaged in civil discussion with you. I used textbook English and writing class examples and definitions, and you argued against well known facts because you don't want to admit it or are uneducated. You clearly don't have the background to determine what is considered good writing is and isn't. What you happen to prefer has no bearing on that. What I prefer has no bearing on that either.
I have no strategy with you any more than I would have a strategy with someone who was defending the Twilight series as good writing.
I would laugh at them, and move on.
Edit:
Also... on the sister loving thing... didn't deny it.
I completely couldn't care less about literary devices. I liked Imoen in both games and was very pleased to have her along for the full ride. Rescuing her from Spell Hold is one of my fondest memories from the first time I played BG2; and those sorts of heroic moments matter more to me than over-arching issues or plot subtleties . And in spite of the suggestion being poo-pooed above, I have quit more games than I have finished, and loosing an old friend is exactly the sort of thing that could have made BG2 just another one of those; instead of something wonderful and special.
In a game where we all get to modify our own party, no one has to play with anyone they don't want, and there are even mods to keep Yoshimo if that matters to you.
Saying that YOU personally like it, and YOU personally think it is a great idea and are happy it happened. Is 100% valid.
Saying it is great writing to YOU is 100% valid.
Saying it would be considered good writing by a certain set of predefined standards that are used as textbook examples as what to do or what not to do isn't though.
My original point was I didn't personally like it, because it is bad writing based off of standards XYZ. (Ones that I didn't create) and that personally annoys me. Not enough to not play, 99% of it is a amazing story.
A response like yours is as valid as mine.
Saying that this wasn't a last minute decision that did lead to a tiny amount of BS and had to use a plot device that isn't accepted as best practice, is nonfactual and not a valid response.
Edit:
Oh, I'm more or less done here on this forum for other reasons, but since I may not get the chance to say it again.
Shawne still didn't deny thinking incest with Imoen was a good idea.
Anyway, the game has enough angst as it is; especially if you romance, well, anyone.
I remember many people thought Nalia was supposed to 'replace' Imoen, which I was surprised by. They're the same class etc, but I thought Aerie was more like Imoen in terms of personality. Better behaved of course, but a bit child-like and sometimes silly, missing her home, and generally more of a little sister type; I was surprised she was actually a romance option.