Abolish Multiclassing entirely
ZanathKariashi
Member Posts: 2,869
If BG used some of the alternative rules for Demi-human race caps, I can see multiclassing remaining. But in it's current state it's just too powerful (Especially since Dual-classing is HEAVILY nerf'd compared to it's PnP version while Multiclasses are just as powerful as before but with fewer restrictions, and become positively broken once you start gaining HLA).
(I'd personally like to see Unlimited advancement for Single class demi-humans and Cap+4 advancement for multiclass, which I feel would be extremely fair over all, with the current dual-classing nerfs intact.)
Remove Multi-classing entirely, and allow demi-humans to dual-class like humans, for any eligible classes they can be normally (remove the valid multi-class only restriction as it no longer matters), with all the proper (for PnP) dual-class restrictions. And open up dual-classing to it's pnp level of variety allowing any class combination (But only 1 class from each pool and still only 1 kit per character and only at creation, but break up specialists into actual classes rather then kits, as they were in BG1, as is proper for PnP).
Humans would have complete freedom for choosing their dual-classes (stats and alignment allowing, of course), as proper. And demi-humans could dual-class within their allowed classes, more restricted by comparison but they get better racial abilities, so it actually would even things out quite well.
(I'd personally like to see Unlimited advancement for Single class demi-humans and Cap+4 advancement for multiclass, which I feel would be extremely fair over all, with the current dual-classing nerfs intact.)
Remove Multi-classing entirely, and allow demi-humans to dual-class like humans, for any eligible classes they can be normally (remove the valid multi-class only restriction as it no longer matters), with all the proper (for PnP) dual-class restrictions. And open up dual-classing to it's pnp level of variety allowing any class combination (But only 1 class from each pool and still only 1 kit per character and only at creation, but break up specialists into actual classes rather then kits, as they were in BG1, as is proper for PnP).
Humans would have complete freedom for choosing their dual-classes (stats and alignment allowing, of course), as proper. And demi-humans could dual-class within their allowed classes, more restricted by comparison but they get better racial abilities, so it actually would even things out quite well.
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Also, you may want to see something you yourself posted a while back: Pretty much every thing you say here, except the second paragraph, could be used as an argument against what you're proposing in this thread.
Let's not forget that this is not an MMO and doesn't have Persistent Worlds like NwN1/2 so who cares if something is broken in an overpowered way or not?
Also multiclasses are generally inferior compared to Dual-Classing, even with the HLAs.
Kensai/Mages, Berserker/Clerics, Kensai/Thief etc.
The only broken multiclass is Ranger/Cleric since you get Warrior THAC0 and full Druid AND Cleric spellcasting (did they fix that in BGEE?) plus free two-weapon style points.
A Fighter/Thief multiclass is needed to make an unkitted Thief even viable and even Swashbucklers are close. Cleric/Mages advance spellcasting REALLY slow and no heavy armor for you. Pure Druids are crap and Totemist Druids are better. Fighter/Druids are more viable, with their stupid XP progression around level 14.
What multiclass combination do you consider overpowered and broken/imbalanced, except the Ranger/Cleric?
And about the HLAs, you are an (almost) epic character. You're supposed to be extremely powerful. Epic characters are non-existent almost in ADnD and there, they're almost demigods.
Ok...what the %&#* game have you been playing? Multiclass character's get 6-7 more HLA on average then a single or dualclass character does (aside from some ridiculous 20+ dual that takes 92% of the game to pay off) and gains them from ALL applicable class pools. Anyone that isn't stupid immediately realizes even 1 extra HLA gives more benefit then even 19 levels of kensai or Berserker does (and most dual at 13 or 9 respectively) and completely lack any of the penalties those classes have.
The R/C isn't broken or overpowered, it's just implemented wrongly as they aren't supposed to get 4th and above level druid spells, Druid spells (that made it into BG anyway) are WORTHLESS (insect swarm is the only mildly useful of the bunch), and actually PUNISH someone with cleric spells available for memorizing druid spells instead, since you COULD'VE chosen something FAR more powerful and effective.
The F/D is probably the most broken class in the game (aside from the berserker), since it allows you to wear any armor you want with no problems...when PnP druids are restricted to only specific weapon types, shields (must be made of entirely of wood or other natural materials, the actual size/weight of the shield doesn't matter) and armor (leather and Hide only (even studded leather isn't allowed)) allowed by druids or they lose all their spell-casting and other class benefits till 24 hours after they remove the offending items and it doesn't matter WHAT weapons/armor their classes can use and be proficient in, their ethos has very specific restrictions on their gear they MUST follow.
Thieves are only overpowered because Use any item was a MASSIVE mistake for the developers to implement. Letting 24+ thieves cast spells from scrolls DOES NOT EQUAL use anyone's equipment they damn well please.
Hell, bards get the closest thing that exists to Use any item in PnP, that allows them to use any items normally reserved for mages only (at lvl 24)...that's it...(and technically...all bards can use any items or weapons (some of them, like the Gallant and PnP Skald can even wear any armor or shields they please) available to warriors as a whole as a base class ability, but not items specifically restricted to a particular class).
And technically the epic traps should be available to any class since they're part of a High Level General Non-combat proficiency, rather then a rogue specific thing (though making a time stop trap requires a scroll of time stop (and the ability to cast from scrolls), the ability to cast time stop yourself, or hiring someone who can to cast the spell for you during the creation process)
Most of the other Rogue abilities are actually more or less accurate. Except that only Bards are supposed to get scroll scribing (automatic at lvl 27, the same level they get 8th level spell casting), both can make potions (except it's supposed to cost gold/xp to do so, and they can choose the potions they want to make (requires a scroll of the spell required or bards could also have it memorized). And Mastery of Song (Epic bard song) just reduces the number of rounds they need to sing before their song takes effect to 1, instead of 3, increases it's duration by an additional 5 rounds (normally 1 round/level once they stop singing), and allows them to use all 3 effects at once (+1 hit, +1 saves, +2 morale) instead of just one per song.
As to your suggestion, regardless of it's validity, I doubt that it's ever happening. Multiclasses are a hugely popular part of BG, and many companions would have to be reworked to compensate for such a colossal shift.
Also, Fighter/Mages are too strong to let you nerf them. :P
Just out of interest, what was the purpose for creating this thread? You're obviously rather intelligent, easily intelligent enough to know that this request would never be accepted-too big a change for too little reason. It just seems like a bit of a waste.
I fail to realize what you problem is. You find multiclassing to be overpowered. Great, don't multiclass. Don't pick companions that multiclass. Don't abuse the multiclassing benefits that you gain.
Just like I don't like using cheesy ways to win like putting a billion traps in front of a boss, force-talk them, Time Stop and then turn into a Mind Flayer for instakills, chain summoning planetars etc etc.
Watch the SoA and ToB speedruns to see what true cheese and overpowered tactics Mages/Sorcerers can use.
I doubt ANY warrior multiclass with 100 HLAs is a match for a Sorcerer with Improved Alacrity -> Time Stop -> Shapechange into Mind Flayer and insta kill. You don't even get a chance to react.
If you want to limit or change YOUR game, that's your right. But a feature request is something that will influence MY game too and I like multiclass and despise dual-classing.
And once again, it's single player. Not an MMO, not a PW. Noone will use what you describe against you in PvP.
By the way, if you want hardcore, true, by the book ADnD, play PnP with the BG storyline. Problem solved.
But I think what a lot of people commenting on here have it wrong. He isn't saying it is over powered because it is over powered. He is saying it is over powered because the multiclassing rules use 2 ed rules, which were restricted to demi-humans (they got this part right), and demi-humnas had a limit on how far they could advance in a class (this is what isn't implemented). Which completely breaks multiclassing from the 2 ed perspective.
I think introducing those caps with a + modifier as he suggest would make the choices and flavor between the demi-human races much more interesting. However would probably lead to a situation where a X race is always better for Y multiclass, and everyone hates cookie cutters.
Also, removing the stupid dual classing restrictions so you can dual to any class, and you can dual more than one time (once per pool) is a GREAT idea, and there is absolutely no excuse that this wasn't done, and there is no excuse that it isn't being done this time around. Other than being lazy and making dual and multi classing work the same way in the engine.
I think the biggest thing that would make what you've said possible, is the fact that this isn't tabletop IRL where human beings control every aspect. This is a video game that is, for the most part, supposed to be able to cater to a larger mass of people. The controling aspect becomes the game developers, and making a game that is too complicated would be difficult to sell to the masses, thereby making a game that becomes unpopular and then there would be no reason to make a second game or an enhanced edition in the first place.
I'm quoting ADnD 2E Player's Handbook here:
"The human race has one special ability in the AD&D game: Humans can choose to be of any class -warrior, wizard, priest or rogue-and can rise to great level in any class. The other races have fewer choices of character classes and usually are limited in the level they can attain.
.... The limits also exist for play balance. The ability of humans to assume any role and reach any level is their only advantage. The demihuman races have other powers that make them entertaining to play- particularly the ability to be multi-classed.
These powers balance the enjoyment of play against the ability to rise in level. Ask your DM for the level limits imposed on non-human characters."
Notice the very last sentence: "Ask your DM". The DMs (designers) of BG ruled that demihumans have no level limits, therefore, by the rules, demi-humans not having any level limits is perfectly legal and per ADnD PnP.
I'm not even for the muticlass thing, as much as I'm for the dual class restrictions where they are mirrored off multiclass options to be removed. Which was the other half of his feature.
I was just explaining, what I thought might have been missed and may have been incorrect, that he wasn't just spouting off that this is OP nerf it. As much as he thinks the demi human cap limit should be house ruled to suggested + 4, instead of house ruled to none.
I get that there are house rules everywhere, DMs with house rules tend to not stretch as far as removing a cap, as opposed to stretching to increase it. So, that makes it a fairly reasonable request.
It most likely won't be done, but I think the idea and the person was attacked way too hard given it was just:
"House rules of infinite are a little bit of a stretch for 99.9% of DMs, maybe do suggested +4 which is still generous."
Given that many people at this place said they wanted more PnP rules, suggesting a house rule that would be considered ridiculous to a majority of DMs to be scaled back isn't a bad idea to bring up. It might be a bad idea for Overhaul to consider, but not to bring up.
And again, you don't have to convince me that this is fine, because as I repeat again. I'm more interested in the dual class issues.
You are the only one that ruined your own balance. You choose to keep it balanced. Like choosing to not use the Ctrl + 8 command to set everything to maximum. Like choosing to not use Time Stop + Shapechange abuse. Like multiple traps, like force talk. It's that simple.
Multiclassing becomes more of a pain than anything in BG2. That's why many say a Kensai/Mage is insane but a Fighter/Mage is not.
I like multiclassing much more than dual-classing. It's simpler and more elegant as you advance more classes with double the XP.
If it was like PnP, you would have combinations like: Kensai 8/Thief 9/Cleric 10-15/Mage rest and being able to do everything while getting normal XP.
Ever tried playing F/M/T multiclasses? Unless you solo, you get xp VERY slowly and all your classes are lagging behind, most importantly the mage part.
If there racial limits why in the hell would anyone choose to play anything else than a human?
Can you imagine having a human fighter at level 30 and an elven/dwarven NPC being stuck at levels 10-15 for example? (Not sure of the exact racial limits).
We would just take the human characters and ignore the demihumans.
The only reason racial limits exist in PnP, is because you get xp and levels VERY slowly. And I mean, like taking years to reach level 10.
Multiclassing is pretty viable until level ~10, then it falls apart. Leveling becomes very slow. I don't think Aerie in my party reached level 20 in any of her classes while others were around level 28-30.
Example: I r house rulez that all elves are immortal and take no damage. That would be freaking stupid. Therefore, it is not a complete defense to just say LEGAL BECAUSE OF R HOUSE RULZ KTHXBAI. Technically a DM could house rule freaking anything. That isn't a defense.
A less jackass response would be to have discussed why you think that idea sucked, and maybe suggest that MAYBE their HLAs should be reduced because yeah, TOB multiclasses are OP. Instead of getting pissy. We have enough jackass feature requests like making items left on the ground not disappear that attacking someone suggesting the game move in a harder direction is stupid. Even if this idea was terrible, I'm glad we have someone pushing in the opposite direction. Excuse me, HAD someone because apparently we run these people off by calling them hypocrites and treat the antipolde belt guy less harshly.
Also, lol, Aerie at 20/20 is far more powerful than a lot of level 30's. Multiclassing doesn't fall apart at level 10, it is ridiculously OP in ToB. You not realize that, doesn't make it not so. And he wasn't suggesting the class limits you are showing, he was suggesting +4, which BASICALLY would have only limited their HLAs. AND, as I said earlier, since that was a lot of the intent, someone could have talked about that instead of being a dick.
It looks what happened here, is what happens anytime anyone around here attempts to suggest making something more accurate by making it harder, is before they even realize what that would effect they jump all over the guy suggesting it.
@TJ_Hooker
Sorry, I saw that thread and feel that the quote is completely taken out of context, and only served to prove his point. There are far to many broken things that are already OP, and that suggestion he was responding to was to make something else OP. This was a suggestion to do the opposite.
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Did anyone who attacked the idea creator as opposed to the idea even stop to see what a F/T Dwarf would be able to get to at a +4 on the suggested? And then compare that to what a F/T with 4 million in each class could get too now. And see if that would drastically change anything in the class other than a tiny amount of HP and a few HLAs?
If not you are all dicks.
I don't think I was being a dick. Though I lost my cool for a while, but I never insulted or made fun of anyone.
I quoted a PnP source. The racial limits exist for balance and for enjoyment. Making a character that stops progressing after a while, is pointless, unbalanced and not fun.
If we turned multiclass NPCs into dual-classed ones, you would have Aerie for example that is 8 level Cleric and 25 level Mage.
The main problem of the OP was that he didn't like the number of HLAs you got. And I responded by saying that a Sorcerer with those tricks is a FAR worse offender and way more overpowered.
A Fighter/Druid that can equip Plate is not overpowered. They just have some better AC. Ankheg Plate is wearing by Druids and you have Dragon Armos in BG2 and ToB which destroy mundane plate armors.
And as another poster above quoted the OP "And their opinion equally doesn't matter. The game is as the game is. Play something else or shup up and take it how it is. The BG vampires are 100% accurate to the monster manual entry, and there's not a damn thing you're going to do to get that changed, unless you mod it yourself."
These are his words.
If you don't like something in YOUR game, change it. That only affects you. It's not an MMO, I repeat for the third time.
Requesting a major change in one of the main features of the game, is unreasonable to me. And again, I didn't insult the OP if you read my first response, instead he did in his following post.
If the change was just some HP and a few HLAs, there was no point in such a drastic change.
By the way , you are basically insulting all of us, so who's the rude one and dick now? Shall I start throwing insults and names at you too?
A) The dual classing idea is great, thanks everybody in here for making sure this doesn't get to go anywhere and
You attacked the premise that the game needed to be nerfed, by saying play how you want. You did not attack the premise of the idea by seeing where, for example, a Dwarf F/T would end up at W / X where with current rules they get to Y / Z.
Then compare how that would effect thac0, saves, HP, caster levels and HLA. THEN there would be ground to stand on. THEN there could have been a discussion that might have lead to more interesting points and ideas.
But what happened was the exact thing that happens every time anyone wants to nerf the game. People cry without even looking at the idea.
Furthermore, as I already pointed out, that quote by ZK is not applicable here whatsoever for reasons I've already given whether anyone else fails to understand that or not.
This is a moot point and I'm done here. Because if ZK actually left as he said he did, then defending him has no purpose. And the responses that ZK and Bigdogchris always get with ideas like this make the point that any nerfs are going to be attacked before the idea is even LOOKED at, which basically destroys the entire point of the feature request thread other than to give cosmetic / ui ideas.
In conclusion from things like this and other threads of this nature, and people who don't even know what proper writing is considered to be.
Some people here had the idea that there were more old school people here that enjoyed a give and take difficult game with classic story telling etc...
This is incorrect in all areas, this place is like every other game industry and every other corner of the internet. Kiddie grade bullcrap.
I'm done here, here being this community, as well.
Oh, no. I am not against nerfing. On the contrary. But what should be nerfed, are mages mostly. Remove the Mind Flayer shape from Shapechange.
I'm pro limiting Druids to animal armor but also improve them by having more forms and different armors for them.
A) The dual-classing idea was not great for me. I hate dual-classing. I find it cheesy and it's very clunky. The whole stopping with one class and raising another at minimal xp cost. (Kensai/Mages etc)
And it would be even less PnP and mess with the current multiclass companions.
I told him and you, repeatedly that some more HLAs don't break or unbalance the game. HLAs are not part of PnP and I think, totally custom made. Instead, they could be capped. Like for example you could only have one of each HLA.
But really would a few more Whirlwinds at the very end of the saga, make THAT much of a difference, enough to overhaul one of the main stuff?
He also talked about Use Any Item and Scribe Scroll. The scrolls you can scribe are crappy, the potions are meh and really, would a Bard or (Fighter)/Thief being able to use Carsormyr make THAT much of a difference, again? Just make or bring a Paladin along if you want to use it that bad. Big deal.
I never said "lol, stupid idea". I asked him multiple times what he considers overpowered and gave him examples of what should be actually nerfed and what is actually overpowered.
Then he said " Just venting some pent-up frustration at the lack of a comprehensive accurate 2nd edition rules tweak mod. "
And I guess him examples again that a truly accurate PnP mod, is full turn-based like Temple of Elemental Evil, has spell components, Shapechange is even more broken, Druids can turn into even more powerful animals and Mages fly and Teleport or Scry. That's a fully accurate PnP, mod.
And then I said that if one wants the most accurate and hardcore PnP experience, then they should play PnP. DnD videogames are adaptations and are based on PnP, you can't make them perfectly per PnP and they won't give you the same experience.
PnP is not balanced and certaintly BG is not PnP. That's a fact. How's that an insult? The only game, I know, that claimed to be as close to PnP as possible, is Temple of Elemental Evil.
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