Hide is shadows

billyjean

hey guys. One of my favorite builds to play are stealth users but im having some frustrations at the moment with my characters REFUSING to hide in shadows. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced anything similar or can explain why this is happening or can explain why this was happening?

My Gnome fighter/thief:
60 hide in shadows
40 move silently
(havnt picked up stealth boots or shadow Armour yet)
Just failed to hide in shadows 15 times in a row. usually takes my approx 5-8 tries to hide in shadows once.

My elf fighter/mage/thief
80 hide in shows
80 move silently

over the course of 5-10 play hours consistently failed to hide is shadows success rate of about 33-50% success

my human stalker cleric
89 stealth

successfully hides in shadows about 3/4 of the time over approx 10 play hours using stealth non stop. Definanly not 89%

(an no im not hiding when enemies are in sight lol! ive been corner sneaking for over 10 years in basically even ADAD game)

Oxford_Guy

If you're trying to hide in the day time, and not in a shadowed area (e.g. near trees), then you get massive penalties to hiding

Madhax

As @Oxford_Guy stated, the chance of hiding in shadows is highly reliant on your surroundings. Adventuring at night is preferable, and if that doesn't work, stepping into a shadow to hide helps a lot. You'll also enjoy better success rates underground, such as in mines.

billyjean

truly? ive read alot of bg material over the years and never seen this anywhere

TJ_Hooker

According to some test results some guy posted on the Bioware forums way back, your ability to stealth is reduced by half when outside in daylight, and by a third when inside standing in direct light.

Madhax

billyjean said:

truly? ive read alot of bg material over the years and never seen this anywhere

It's not well-documented, but trust me, it's a major factor. Test it for yourself if you're curious.

Last I checked, you need well over 100% in each skill to consistently hide in broad daylight.

billyjean

yeh i can believe that with the absurd failure rate im getting. Ill see what its like indoors

Might crank the skills up over 100 and see how things go

thanks people

billyjean

If i remember correctly in NWN rangers get a stealth bonus when in the wilderness & in BG you get a penalty for being outdoors :I

TJ_Hooker

Also, according to the abovementioned tests, points in move silently are worth more than points in hide in shadows. Apparently they are both equally useful when trying to enter stealth (the game just checks the average), but when you make a check to stay stealthed, the game only checks move silently.

the_spyder

Another factor is that Hide/Move are linked. Your chance is based on the average of both, not any individual score. So if you are 60/40 as you indicate, you end up with 50 to hide. Kinda sucks, but there you have it.

PugPug

TJ_Hooker said:

According to some test results some guy posted on the Bioware forums way back, your ability to stealth is reduced by half when outside in daylight, and by a third when inside standing in direct light.

So you need 200/200 to always succeed? Barring a critical failure, of course.

A human assassin with 18 dex can start with 37/38, which is 325 points shy. At 15 points per level, you'll be level 22 before reaching the goal, with 5 points left over.

I wanted to determine this for myself, but I may as well leave it here for others.

I wish the bonuses/penalties for races and extra dex were in the manual, but they are not. (edit: I added them a few posts down)

the_spyder

@PugPug, that is why you pick your surroundings. Don't try to stealth in broad daylight or out in the open with little or no cover.

If playing an assassin, do your hunting at night where the world is your shadow.

That is one of the things I always hated about HiPS. I get the concept and I admit that it is a mystic type thing. I just don't like the complete suspension of disbelief necessary to not see it as a free unlimited use invisibility spell.

Wanderon

If you're hiding in daylight outside in the wilderness I find it's useful to utilize the available shadows traveling from tree to tree or the shadows beside large rock formations starting and ending in a shadow whenever possible and maybe holding in the shadow when you get there until the next check is made before heading to the next shadow available to you.

JuliusBorisov

@PugPug

A human assassin with 18 dex starts with:

MS: 10 from human base + 10 from 18 dex

HIS: 5 from human base + 10 from 18 dex

+ 40 points available at the start

So it's 75 points. But you'd better distribute them 60 MS/15 HIS than MS 37/ HIS 38 because the time you're unseen is based on MS and the chace of hiding is based on the sum of MS+HIS (so the latter is the same).

Also you will find Boots of Stealth +20 MS/+15 HIS, Shadow Armor + 15 HIS and the manyal of Dex + 5 MS/+5 HIS. All that brings +25 MS/ + 35 HIS.

265 points are left for you to distribute as you level up. It's 18 levels so you can be 19th (NOT 22th) level Assasin to have 205 MS/200 HIS and dual-class.

But from my point of view, 315 points is enough to feel comfortable. It's only 12 levels so you can be 13th level and dual-class (at 13th level you gain x5 backstab multiplier).

BTW 13th level for thieves requires only 660 000 EXP so it's not so far in BG2.

Of course, dual-classing an assassin can be debatable because he acquires x6 and x7 backstab multipliers at 17th and 21st levels respectively.

But what's the point to be a human if you don't want to dual-class? You'd better take a halfling, a gnome or an elf to be a pure assassin.

PugPug

@bengoshi @the_spyder

It was really just a hypothetical to get some idea of the levels required, nothing more. It's easier to add your racial bonuses to a human than to subtract this and add that.

Here are the stats from the BG2 manual. Sorry, the forum throws out table html tags:

Elf: +5 MS, +10 HiS
Gnome: +5 MS, +5 HiS
Half-Elf: +5 HiS
Halfling: +10 MS, +15 HiS

The Dexterity table only goes up to 19 Dex, but here are the rest of the stats from the wiki:

17: +5 to both
18: +10 to both
19: +15 to both
20: +18 to both
21: +20 to both
22: +23 to both
23: +25 to both
24: +30 to both
25: +35 to both

Oh, 2nd Edition. You can't just pick a simple formula and stick to it, can you?

The finer points of this bonus or that bonus are probably a moot point anyway, unless you intend to dual class.

Shadowdancers get the same amount of points. Dual classing from Shadowdancer simply for stealth in combat might be kind of cool. Like a Staff of the Magi with the invisibility fixed.

Plan away!

smeagolheart

Hide in Shadows/Move Silently Thesis

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Baldur039s-Gate-1-and-2/Baldur039s-Gate-General-Discussion-No-Spoilers-Allowed/Thesis-Hide-in-Shadows-12667733-1.html

JuliusBorisov

That's what I'm going to do - to dual my Shadowdancer to a mage.

I usually abandon dual-classing but this time I decided it's worth it. I'll finish BG1:EE with a Shadowdancer, reach level 13 and then will dual-class to a mage. It won't be far in the game yet.

The reason for my trying to dual-class while I'm usually not fond of it is really the ability to stealth in combat. As soon as I've tried it the very first time (without needing retreating from the sight of the enemy) I've realized: that's it! That's what I like the most.

And choosing a mage as the second class, not a fighter is caused by my wish to have more flexibility in the main character - just not to make it monotonous: this way there'll be a chance to kill by slitting the person's throat or by a powerful spell.

Maybe this combination is the only dual-class I accept, really.

Madhax

@Bengoshi

I have to ask, why level 13? By my calculations, a human Shadowdancer with boosted Dexterity to 19 should reach 100 HiS and MS by level 9. Level 13 is the sweet-spot for warrior-types to get their second APR bonus, but a thief gets no such bonus. And while I suppose you could stack on a few more thief skills, you'll probably want another thief in the party for support skills anyway, and factoring in Boots of Stealth and the like I don't see your stealth needing much help past level 10 or 11.

If you've made deeper plans than this, ignore my advice. I'm just curious what your thought process is, because I've considered a similar build once the kit is un-bugged.

JuliusBorisov

@Madhax

With Boots of Stealth and Shadow Armor, as well as with DEX 19 a human Shadowdancer will have 305 points at the 13th level. I take into account penalties the thieving skills get when hiding in the daylight or lighted areas inside buildings and think having 300 points is valid. 200 points is not enough in my opinion.

And I don't look further than the 13th level because it'll take much more EXP to get back. With 13 levels as a thief, he'll reach 16th level as a mage inside 3 mln EXP - the level a mage has access to the 8th level.

BTW, there'll be another thief in my party (Jan or a new NPC) specializing in OL, DT, ST and DI. Also I'll have Haerdalis who can PP.

Madhax

Sound reasoning, though I ran a F/T through SoA recently and didn't find sunlight to be much of an issue. After all, much of the game's action takes place in dungeons, buildings, caves, etc. And if it's critical that you get off a backstab out in the open, you can always wait for nightfall, cast invisibility, or just find some shadows. I find the ability to vanish in an open field in broad daylight to be badass, but hardly necessary.