Basic Question: Good Alignment PC/NPCs and Looting. Clueless..
Eadwyn_G8keeper
Member Posts: 541
Four levels probably exist. 1-What the game allows. 2-What RPG 'purists' would like to be the case. 3-What may be necessary to obtain the good stuff such as Full Plate Armor and Dagger of Venom, etc. 4-What is normal practice in the BG 'mainstream community' [ex: only Looting as a Good aligned PC/NPC if something like a Diamond or 100GP+ item 'has been rumored']
My point is two-fold. To get the flavor of the game as most folks have come to love it and also because I am clueless about how rigorously Alignment is Role-played --To Loot or not to Loot??
The actual context I am considering is Travenhurst Manor and a certain Diamond rumored to exist somewhere in Beregost. [ps I have a Warhammer...]
My point is two-fold. To get the flavor of the game as most folks have come to love it and also because I am clueless about how rigorously Alignment is Role-played --To Loot or not to Loot??
The actual context I am considering is Travenhurst Manor and a certain Diamond rumored to exist somewhere in Beregost. [ps I have a Warhammer...]
0
Comments
The game doesn't enforce alignment or reputation when looting per se, but looting certain items may make surrounding NPCs hostile, and killing them will likely affect your reputation.
As for your "Four Levels", there really is only two: what the game rules say, and what you personally say for yourself. All the others are highly subjective. Even among RPG "purists" there is regularly heated and polarized debate on certain issues, and don't even try to define something like a "BG mainstream community" - it can only lead to trouble, trust me!
Figuring our your own way, well, that's something that takes time. It's a personal journey, and whatever solution you end up with will likely work for you, and you only. These things just can't be shared or transferred, so just roll with it, make mistakes, and learn from them!
But of course you may be running a more stern sort who won't tolerate such shenanigans. Or you yourself may not be comfortable with such attitudes. My friends often laugh at how much real life morality i carry over into games, but I just honestly have the most fun being a good guy and a hero. Ultimately it is entirely up to you. The things that will actually do your reputation harm are mostly story issues. Although if you steal in front of someone and the guards are called you WILL be loosing some reputation!
In the first place, most RPG games are 'usually' played such that anything that isn't nailed down is fair game. This includes breaking into houses and looting chests while the owners are away.
From the RPG perspective, Some people justify looting as atcDave indicated in that not everyone in your party knows what is going on and those of less moral fortitude are the ones actually doing the deed.
Also, there is the question of is it looting if you are plundering a dangerous dungeon? And how much, if any, should be contributed to local churches etc for the particularly devout. or the local thieves guild should you belong, and other such heady pursuits.
If you are asking about 'getting better stuff', "Most" RPG games (BG included) offer enough treasure outside of looting to make it so that you don't have to resort to thievery to get by. Certainly by mid game in BG1 and 2, you have way more money than you will ever need.
I would ask you to consider a BG scenario. There are a pair of bracers that you "Find" in Baldur's gate. You can also find the owner of those bracers near by. She indicates that if she doesn't get them back, she will be in trouble. I wonder how many RPG purists who are playing goodly characters actually return the gauntlets. I know that I never have. I simply "Forget" her asking. So I don't even know if you get to keep them. But it is an ethical conundrum. You find them fair and square and don't have to steal them. But technically you know who they belong too. Should you return them regardless of the outcome of the actual deed?
Personally, I find it fun sometimes to go through these scenarios and RP a bit. But other times I just go with the "not nailed down = mine" philosophy of your run-off-the-mill dungeon crawler.
Once you start the whole ethical debate you risk losing yourself in it, never to stop! Who says you can just take those items from an old ruin? They don't belong to you! That's STEALING! And what did those Kobolds ever really do to you? It's not like they're a threat to your life, you don't HAVE to kill them! Think of their families, of their friends, they're just trying to get by! Is there even such a thing as inherently evil? Are we not just victims of circumstance and upbringing? Who am I to dish out death like a divine judge?
Oooh yeah, those lonely nights have been fruitful, fruitful indeed!
I always return them.
There are a number of items like this. If it helps, returning them always gives experience, which using or selling won't do!
You can shoplift, burgle, and pickpocket a lot of valuable items in the game... And I can see a mostly Chaotic-oriented party stealing a lot. Certainly Evil would. And perhaps Neutral. But stealing from ostensibly innocent people is hardly prosocial behavior. So is it appropriate for Good-aligned types? No. You're hardly being 'helpful' to others by stealing from them. If you were stealing from evil types who use their assets to do harm, that's arguably a different story.
So I would say that if the party tends towards Chaotic, Evil, and perhaps Neutral, then it's consistent with alignment to steal everything that isn't nailed down. If the party weighs more towards Good and Lawful then no, stealing things would not be consistent with alignment.
The game itself doesn't break down the definition of Good. But traditionally in D&D Good essentially means helping others, and Evil means harming others (with intent/malice, and/or no conscience).
Most recently I've been been playing mixed alignment parties led by a CG or TN mercenary type main character in which NPCs act fairly independently according to their alignment. So if Montaron or Dorn slays Noober, the PC isn't terribly be upset about it. Safana goes on burglary sprees. Monty, Skie, and Alora too. (Alora clearly identifies herself as a burglar.) Coran's description says he steals only from the rich, so if he does steal it's only under that circumstance. I have Garrick and Eldoth pickpocket a fair bit. (Garrick I imagine would do it if the PC directs him to.)
Imoen does not burgle houses, however.
Not to get carried away with it, but one loose guideline one might use is a) a concentration of alignment, or b) the alignments of the main character and the highest Cha NPCs. Regardless of the PC's alignment, and even Charisma, should the party consist of Imoen, Minsc, Dynaheir, Rasaad, and Yeslick, let's say, then I don't see that bunch going along with stealing everything they can lay their hands on. Neither can I see a party with a lot of either Good and Lawful types that have high Cha such as Ajantis, Rasaad, Imoen, Jaheira and Khalid tolerating a party that wantonly steals.
Likewise a party consisting of mostly Evil and un-Lawful types, particularly if a lot of them have high Charisma, I can see stealing with no compunction whatsoever.
Generally, I can see chaotic characters go through an Inn and look into every chest of unoccupied rooms and taking whatever they find, with the mindset of "oh, someone must have forgotten this/left it because they didn't need it anymore". Lawful characters, regardless if good, evil or neutral, would likely not even go in rooms/houses because they stick to certain rules, even if it is as basic as respecting personal space/property. Depending on their personality, even (chaotic) evil characters may not enter houses because they dislike the idea of being confined in a room with anyone, especially potentially hostile people, and having the escape way blocked. For example, the evil caster trio all dislike being touched/getting into melee, while evil melee NPCs probably see it as needless subtlety to sneak into a house if robbing someone at gun/swordpoint seems easier and more effective.
Even so, sticking by the PC's side doesn't mean she wouldn't have a mind of her own. I guess it's open-ended as to whether she could be persuaded to do whatever the PC asks. For instance to burgle the homes of innocents. I suppose if I am to roleplay this, my own rule of thumb might be that she only would if the PC has higher Cha than hers.
Trying to actually play an alignment for its narrative values leads to all sorts of queries about what the heck is going on- Obviously something is happening in Nashkel but why head into danger rather than seek refuge after something like the murder of Gorion....
[particularly if you have the overactive Imagination and love of stories that I do]
I mean just what are Jaheira and Khalid offering as possible explanations about Zarevok and Goring. At what point does Charname begin to sense that He/She is a pivotal character in a larger world-game he is ignorant of.
A certain amount of Looting, even for a Lawful Good Character, could easily make sense as a sort of Madness overwhelming the Hero whose Survival Instincts are in full gallop!! Touches upon the old reality of Warriors being mostly unable/unwilling to really share their memories of Battle...
Does he feel like he has suddenly been swept from Candlekeep into a world gone mad, a world in which simply surviving Artful Dodger style for a few months until the trauma subsides....as if!! would be Gold Medal stuff. Or does he have a sense of Destiny with a very limited window of time in which to marshall his forces and rise to some occasion the RPGer..."us" , is not supposed to know much about.
I guess part of the genius of the game is allowing Jaheira and Khalid, his designated "friends", to have so little real information to impart. Which allows the Players to really imagine their own version of what is happening.
I mean even King David in the Bible got his start as a Brigand...!
Starting to get more curious about who the bad guys are....I guess! Cheers!
But for a Singleplayer game like BG, I'm a big believer in the Bob Ross approach: "It's your world. You're the creator."
From a roleplay point of view, he and some others fall under the "guy wise enough to know that his involvement would change nothing" rule, same as Elminster, who very certainly has the means to help Charname more than giving some cryptic hints. But he also knows Charname must find his/her own way, so he doesn't. (And really, Charname is 20, not 12. It's about time.)
There is a support network for both sides of the spectrum, and it does favor good aligned characters a bit by offering 3 long-term NPC options for a good party (counting Jaheira as good because she's paired with Khalid), including a healer. Not that it helps *much* to have the basics covered with healer - thief - fighter thrown at you, but the game does reflect a stronger support network for good charnames - all 3 NPCs are trustworthy and "family friends", so to speak, where the evil NPCs are suspicious strangers that obviously have reasons to help you that they don't reveal. (I can imagine Xzar and Monty setting off all sorts of alerts for people who played BG2 first and had Yoshimo in their party...)
Long term, you get exactly the same from both versions - if you dual Imoen to mage and Xzar to cleric, each combination of early NPCs comes out as fighter - thief - cleric - mage, but good alignment gives you one more body.
With the Chaotic Good alignment, should a character who is defined as primarily helpful to others (Good) go around wantonly stealing from commoners? These are ostensibly hardworking farmers, peasants, and shopkeepers. And for all one knows the theft could be devastating to their lives. So I would say no, this is not alignment appropriate behavior at least not as I roleplay this concept. In my view, even those Chaotic Good Thieves identified as burglars such as Alora, should not be going around doing obvious harm to innocents directly from their behavior. Unless perhaps their Wisdom and/or Intelligence is in the cellar.
Although I guess perhaps if Know Alignment is cast and the target of the theft is determined to be Evil...
Alignments and how those assigned to them may act in a fantasy world are after all not written in stone and there are certainly good folk who may be tempted to pick up an item or two that doesn't belong to them and rationalize it away in any manner of ways - she is after all a thief who knows about lock picking and trap finding and pick pocketing and even if good - she is not lawful and may operate under the finders keepers losers weepers formula of determining ownership without intentionally setting out to harm others - if Charname suggests such behavior is acceptable to a degree "for the group' - all the more reason for her to bend the rules of ownership a bit for the greater good.
In the end it is of course up to the player and just becuase his/her Imoen traveling with a Paladin may not pilfer a bit doesn't mean that Imoen traveling with Robin Hood or a charismatic sorcerer won't. ;-)
Also, what of her abiding interest in trollops and plug-tails? Such things are incongruous with an innocent mind.
Anyhow, scripting the game so that carrying around some Effete Nobleman's Golden Pantaloons for no evident reason has real value in the Sequel...must be considered a kind of back-handed snigger at the whole project of trying to imagine a coherent Backstory to any PowerGame itinerary.
But wait, just hold on a minute.... This came to me in a reverie as I was drifting off last night. Maybe the Chaotic Good little closet-Paladin-FM wants to pacify the whole area, restoring in some sense, the Ancient School of Ulcaster and establishing a thriving Commercial Base in a newly prosperous Beregost. After all that is one of the Prime Benefits of Chaotic versions of the Good IMHO, Major Visionary Ideas... Happy Adventuring!!
Now I can definitely also see my way to having Kivan do a bit of Lock-Bashing for a specific 500GP item that will enable early purchase of the CompLongBow +1 and a visit to Peldvale for the +1Warhammer and some scalps... Hmmmmm Yeah....sumthin like that would fly for an NPC with Revenge powered motives...
The game is afoot.
Also, one new question, if I may... I see that purchasing a Rep+1 via Temple Donation is only 200GP when Party is currently at either Level 12 or Level 13. Which is it??
however, sometimes imoen sneaks off to satisfy her kleptomania! in beregost at the burning wizard inn, the party rests while she pilfers around upstairs. when she returns with the stupifier and presents it proudly to charname, he's very disapproving and spends the rest of the day talking to every NPC in the inn and beregost to find who it belongs to.
unfortunately no-one claims it, so we keep it, while posting flyers around beregost asking if anyone's lost a +1 mace...
But certainly I wouldn't allow my Lawful Good Paladin become aware of the 'Borrowed' items' origins. he would get unreasonably and unfairly upset about things and that would be bad for his temperament.
The way I play, unneeded stuff is sold pretty ruthlessly, so there's not much pretense of saving things for later. But it is role playing, if it works for you...