He is in charge of law enforcement. He is doing his job to ensure that roads are free of bandits. He is questioning you (as he is legally entitled to) since you are unknown travelers to him. He is not nice because in "medieval settings" people were dangerous and distrustful.
=> I guess you'll shoot IRL the next policeman that dare ask you for your driving license then ...
Except they aren't cops.
They are the city guard. Baldur's Gate is a city-state. Their authority extends beyond the walls of the city itself, because that is still Baldur's Gate territory. They enforce the law, attempting to arrest CHARNAME at certain points in the story and when your Rep gets too low. They are the police, in duty if not in name. Period.
They are the city guard. Baldur's Gate is a city-state. Their authority extends beyond the walls of the city itself, because that is still Baldur's Gate territory. They enforce the law, attempting to arrest CHARNAME at certain points in the story and when your Rep gets too low. They are the police, in duty if not in name. Period.
They are cops in as much as any privately owned Para-military organization who will hire anyone who can use a weapon are the police.
Period.
But at this point let's agree to disagree. We neither of us is going to give ground on this. And we are wasting the thread with needless going back and forth.
One where I was mistaken for a member of a gang of bikers (which was extremely silly considering I look nothing like those guys and I don't own a bike and I was in a car in full work uniform with two other guys wearing the same type of uniforms.
They are the city guard. Baldur's Gate is a city-state. Their authority extends beyond the walls of the city itself, because that is still Baldur's Gate territory. They enforce the law, attempting to arrest CHARNAME at certain points in the story and when your Rep gets too low. They are the police, in duty if not in name. Period.
Since "the police" is a modern social construct that is subject to change over time, it seems rather silly to state that a different social construct in a medieval era computer game is objectively the same, period.
@the_spyder - like I mentioned in my previous post, Scar definitely gives some indication that they are considered (or at least consider themselves) a police force when he says " The Flaming Fist aren't mercenaries, they're this city's police force."
Also mentioned in game - "I don't see how the Flaming Fist is gonna continue to be an effective police force. No new weapons and no new armor, not a good thing."
Those are two in-game references to them being viewed as a police force.
Since "the police" is a modern social construct that is subject to change over time, it seems rather silly to state that a different social construct in a medieval era computer game is objectively the same, period.
Okay, they're the "local law enforcement," then. They enforce the laws, protect citizens, and limit civil disorder. Even if the term "police" doesn't exist, they clearly serve the same role during peace time. The only argument I've heard that contradicts this is that they are paramilitary, which is pretty much meaningless because they are also essentially the bulk of Baldur's Gate's military and their CEO and founder is also a Grand Duke. The Flaming Fist are whatever Eltan says they are, really, and in the game they are the enforcers of Baldur's Gate law. Hell, Scar works as a sheriff-slash-FBI-agent for the city itself, and I believe the woman working as a sort of game warden for the hunting of ankhegs is also a Flaming Fist member.
Since "the police" is a modern social construct that is subject to change over time, it seems rather silly to state that a different social construct in a medieval era computer game is objectively the same, period.
Okay, they're the "local law enforcement," then. They enforce the laws, protect citizens, and limit civil disorder. Even if the term "police" doesn't exist, they clearly serve the same role during peace time. The only argument I've heard that contradicts this is that they are paramilitary, which is pretty much meaningless because they are also essentially the bulk of Baldur's Gate's military and their CEO and founder is also a Grand Duke. The Flaming Fist are whatever Eltan says they are, really, and in the game they are the enforcers of Baldur's Gate law. Hell, Scar works as a sheriff-slash-FBI-agent for the city itself, and I believe the woman working as a sort of game warden for the hunting of ankhegs is also a Flaming Fist member.
The concepts of "law", "enforcement" and the corresponding tasks are social constructs which are different between social settings/environments and changeable over time. Whether protecting citizens, limiting civil disorder etc. is part of their tasks is completely dependent on the specific setting, take for example which people are to be protected, what is a citizen, when is someone considered a citizen, what is considered a crime, what is the mandate of the enforcer, can he execute punishment by himself, which authority do they possess, over whom do they possess this authority. Thus arguing they are the same as "the police" in our modern day society is not grounded and making arguments comparing their and CHARNAME's behavior to modern day situations with law enforcement is nothing but a straw man fallacy.
They're still a fantasy parallel to modern police and military forces, @IkMarc, regardless of how badly you want to justify killing them for not kissing your CHARNAME's ass.
My first time playing this game, I must have used an AOE during and hit one during a fight or something and killed him, because guards kept attacking me all over the place, and I didn't know why.
Well I'm going to say a LG character is perfectly within their rights to kill the bastard south of Beregost:
You're under arrest for banditry and highway robbery! We know you're part of that bandit group who's been terrorizing the Coast Way. Give yourselves up, or there will be trouble.
-- Zero proof, but ok, rule of law and all that so...
You can take us prisoner. We'll even throw down our weapons.
Good! Actually, boys, I don't think we should take these bandits in. They don't deserve the comforts of a cell. All they deserve is a quick execution.
Hmmm... at this point I'm entitled to defend myself against this chump.
Or a sarcastic Chaotic Good character might still end up killing the putz...
You're under arrest for banditry and highway robbery! We know you're part of that bandit group who's been terrorizing the Coast Way. Give yourselves up, or there will be trouble.
You've got the wrong guys. We're not part of any bandit gang.
Why should I believe you?
Well, because of my warm smile and honest demeanor.
Sweet talking won't help you at all
From here I can only say - Arrest us then or We're not going down without a fight. Both probably ok for a CG, but let's say he leans on the safe side and says arrest us then...
We're not taking you in alive, murdering swine!
Yeah, I think you can kill this guy no matter your alignment.. just pick the right dialogue options.
They're still a fantasy parallel to modern police and military forces, @IkMarc, regardless of how badly you want to justify killing them for not kissing your CHARNAME's ass.
Oversimplifying the discussion and going Ad Hominem when you are out of good arguments doesn't help you anywhere
They are the city guard. Baldur's Gate is a city-state. Their authority extends beyond the walls of the city itself, because that is still Baldur's Gate territory. They enforce the law, attempting to arrest CHARNAME at certain points in the story and when your Rep gets too low. They are the police, in duty if not in name. Period.
In canon, there is actually a city guard in Baldur's Gate that's distinct from the Flaming Fist. The city guard does the patrols and policing. That's per Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast. The Flaming Fist are more like the military there to protect the city-state from more serious threats. They're fashioned a bit after the Knights Templar, it seems to me.
Bur sure enough, in the game they "are the law" for the region. They're the cops in the game.
Oversimplifying the discussion and going Ad Hominem when you are out of good arguments doesn't help you anywhere
It's not an "ad hominem" attack. That's clearly what this thread is about. You're upset that the Flaming Fist doesn't give your character the respect you think your character is due, so you killed him.
Oversimplifying the discussion and going Ad Hominem when you are out of good arguments doesn't help you anywhere
It's not an "ad hominem" attack. That's clearly what this thread is about. You're upset that the Flaming Fist doesn't give your character the respect you think your character is due, so you killed him.
You are making an implication about my motives behind the discussion to devalue my arguments, which is Ad Hominem. Now you do it again, in a childish manner. Why are you arguing on my motives rather than addressing my arguments?
Stick to substance and keep it civil please. As impassioned as you like, of course. But take it to PMs or PM me or one of the other mods if you think it's gonna escalate. Thanks.
The Scar quote is pretty much the best evidence we have in this debate. What makes you think that the Flaming Fist has to operate like a real world police force before you can call them cops? Being a police in Faerun could mean different things than what we're used to.
He is in charge of law enforcement. He is doing his job to ensure that roads are free of bandits. He is questioning you (as he is legally entitled to) since you are unknown travelers to him. He is not nice because in "medieval settings" people were dangerous and distrustful.
=> I guess you'll shoot IRL the next policeman that dare ask you for your driving license then ...
Except they aren't cops.
Still they're in charge of law enforcement as they are legally entitled by the Dukes...
There were no public service in these years...
All the people working for law enforcement were working (paid) for their liege / king / lord / emperor and so on.
They are the city guard. Baldur's Gate is a city-state. Their authority extends beyond the walls of the city itself, because that is still Baldur's Gate territory. They enforce the law, attempting to arrest CHARNAME at certain points in the story and when your Rep gets too low. They are the police, in duty if not in name. Period.
They are cops in as much as any privately owned Para-military organization who will hire anyone who can use a weapon are the police.
Period.
But at this point let's agree to disagree. We neither of us is going to give ground on this. And we are wasting the thread with needless going back and forth.
No "period" bro (sorry to" bro" you even if we don't know each other IRL).
This is a medieval setting (with heavy fantasy elements for sure), not a modern setting in our twentieth century (yes BG1 did came out in 1998).
If this sounds strange to you, there are good history books that describe in detail the life, organizations of the kingdoms in these medieval eras.
They are NO paramilitary organization because they ARE the power, they ARE the army, they are working FOR the power and this power only.
There were no governments like the one in the US, United-Kingdom, France, ... that we can see nowadays.
In our modern states, there is a legal authority called "police", which works for keeping public order in our countries.
In canon, there is actually a city guard in Baldur's Gate that's distinct from the Flaming Fist. The city guard does the patrols and policing. That's per Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast. The Flaming Fist are more like the military there to protect the city-state from more serious threats. They're fashioned a bit after the Knights Templar, it seems to me.
Bur sure enough, in the game they "are the law" for the region. They're the cops in the game.
At the end of the day, they are Mercenaries. That is why the group is called the 'Flaming Fist Mercenaries'. it is in the name.
In Cannon, they are NOT the police. There is actually a City Watch that is separate from the Flaming Fist. And so the parallels you draw are not accurate.
However, in the development of the game, a decision must have been made to more streamline the whole thing. so I think the issue is settled.
Though from a literary standpoint the Forgotten Realms obviously is derived from real world history (and also our myths, fantasy genres, etc.), it is in fact not set on earth. It's set on a planet in a different universe named Abeir-Toril. It has it's own unique history. I'm just pointing that out because not every player is aware of that.
In medieval times, there were no police. There was no CSI: Greater Britannia. Crimes, if they existed among the common folk were largely dealt with by individuals, your neighbors and mobs. If you had a beef with someone and couldn't resolve it yourself, you brought it in front of the Baron or whatever minor noble controlled the area.
And if it was a big enough issue, the Army "Might" be brought in to restore the peace, but it was in no way anything like what we see today. The 'Army' was NOT the police force. Ever. Except in matters of civil uprising.
In larger cities, where they existed, there "Might" have been a local magistrate which was analogous to a baronet. He would sit in judgement over complaints brought to his attention and largely rule in favor of whomsoever paid him the most money. But there were no roving bands of "Law Enforcement officers" that would stop petty thievery etc... In short, there was no police force.
"Occasionally" you had inquisitors from the church. These would mete out justice based not on police type control, but more on religious mandates and were rarely, if ever, 'Just'. And the serfs rarely if ever got any kind of justice.
In short, justice was meted out by landed Gentry. They might have enforcers, but there was no equivalent to 'Police'. And if crimes existed among the Gentry, they were investigated by Palace Guards or by some lesser nobleman. Individual territories were governed by the noblemen who governed them.
So there is no equivalent to what exists in the game. Faerun is a fantasy construct made to emulate a society which is familiar to modern readers and has almost nothing in common with 'Medieval History'. Therefore, Canon trumps 'History'.
As @IkMarc has said, our concept of "police" is very modern. The idea of a non-military force that enforces mutually protective laws with the consent of the people is linked with limitations of absolute power of the monarch, development of formal civil/criminal court systems and so on. France appears to have one of the earliest formal police forces, founded in 1667. Britain only had a semi-professional force formed in 1749. As Baldur's Gate appears to be more Dark age/Medieval it seems fair to say that it might predate this innovation.
As has been said - you can be attacked for being glib, cheeky, or indeed offering to lay down your pointy implements and allow the rightful authorities to sort everything out. If they are cops then a few of them have gone off the deep end.
Comments
Period.
But at this point let's agree to disagree. We neither of us is going to give ground on this. And we are wasting the thread with needless going back and forth.
Also mentioned in game - "I don't see how the Flaming Fist is gonna continue to be an effective police force. No new weapons and no new armor, not a good thing."
Those are two in-game references to them being viewed as a police force.
You're under arrest for banditry and highway robbery! We know you're part of that bandit group who's been terrorizing the Coast Way. Give yourselves up, or there will be trouble.
-- Zero proof, but ok, rule of law and all that so...
You can take us prisoner. We'll even throw down our weapons.
Good! Actually, boys, I don't think we should take these bandits in. They don't deserve the comforts of a cell. All they deserve is a quick execution.
Hmmm... at this point I'm entitled to defend myself against this chump.
Or a sarcastic Chaotic Good character might still end up killing the putz...
You're under arrest for banditry and highway robbery! We know you're part of that bandit group who's been terrorizing the Coast Way. Give yourselves up, or there will be trouble.
You've got the wrong guys. We're not part of any bandit gang.
Why should I believe you?
Well, because of my warm smile and honest demeanor.
Sweet talking won't help you at all
From here I can only say - Arrest us then or We're not going down without a fight. Both probably ok for a CG, but let's say he leans on the safe side and says arrest us then...
We're not taking you in alive, murdering swine!
Yeah, I think you can kill this guy no matter your alignment.. just pick the right dialogue options.
They have a tendency to attempt to kill people that sass them.
Now, I don't know about you, but I'm not sure there's a "Sass" statute on the books in Baldur's Gate...
Bur sure enough, in the game they "are the law" for the region. They're the cops in the game.
@Schneidend don't worry no offense taken, I can enjoy a kind of sharp dialogue
The Scar quote is pretty much the best evidence we have in this debate. What makes you think that the Flaming Fist has to operate like a real world police force before you can call them cops? Being a police in Faerun could mean different things than what we're used to.
Still they're in charge of law enforcement as they are legally entitled by the Dukes...
There were no public service in these years...
All the people working for law enforcement were working (paid) for their liege / king / lord / emperor and so on.
No "period" bro (sorry to" bro" you even if we don't know each other IRL).
This is a medieval setting (with heavy fantasy elements for sure), not a modern setting in our twentieth century (yes BG1 did came out in 1998).
If this sounds strange to you, there are good history books that describe in detail the life, organizations of the kingdoms in these medieval eras.
They are NO paramilitary organization because they ARE the power, they ARE the army, they are working FOR the power and this power only.
There were no governments like the one in the US, United-Kingdom, France, ... that we can see nowadays.
In our modern states, there is a legal authority called "police", which works for keeping public order in our countries.
In Cannon, they are NOT the police. There is actually a City Watch that is separate from the Flaming Fist. And so the parallels you draw are not accurate.
However, in the development of the game, a decision must have been made to more streamline the whole thing. so I think the issue is settled.
In medieval times, there were no police. There was no CSI: Greater Britannia. Crimes, if they existed among the common folk were largely dealt with by individuals, your neighbors and mobs. If you had a beef with someone and couldn't resolve it yourself, you brought it in front of the Baron or whatever minor noble controlled the area.
And if it was a big enough issue, the Army "Might" be brought in to restore the peace, but it was in no way anything like what we see today. The 'Army' was NOT the police force. Ever. Except in matters of civil uprising.
In larger cities, where they existed, there "Might" have been a local magistrate which was analogous to a baronet. He would sit in judgement over complaints brought to his attention and largely rule in favor of whomsoever paid him the most money. But there were no roving bands of "Law Enforcement officers" that would stop petty thievery etc... In short, there was no police force.
"Occasionally" you had inquisitors from the church. These would mete out justice based not on police type control, but more on religious mandates and were rarely, if ever, 'Just'. And the serfs rarely if ever got any kind of justice.
In short, justice was meted out by landed Gentry. They might have enforcers, but there was no equivalent to 'Police'. And if crimes existed among the Gentry, they were investigated by Palace Guards or by some lesser nobleman. Individual territories were governed by the noblemen who governed them.
So there is no equivalent to what exists in the game. Faerun is a fantasy construct made to emulate a society which is familiar to modern readers and has almost nothing in common with 'Medieval History'. Therefore, Canon trumps 'History'.
As has been said - you can be attacked for being glib, cheeky, or indeed offering to lay down your pointy implements and allow the rightful authorities to sort everything out. If they are cops then a few of them have gone off the deep end.