Calculating attacks per round...let me get something straight.

Debaser

Working on my calculator...for weapon damage mean averages, etc.

So I get to attacks per round.

I hadn't really thought about it as much as I have in the past hour, but here's my questions:

Using a fighter progression as an example

Fighters start with -

Lvl 01 - 1 APR
Lvl 07 - 1.2 or 3/2 attacks per round, 1 attack in the first round, 2 in the second.
Lvl 13 - 2 APR

Now as far as I can tell, any bonus attacks from weapon proficiency bonuses will be added in AFTER base attack per round for level and class.

But how do Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization work? since you gain an additional 1/2 attack per round?

Is it

Attacks Per Round Based on Lvl / Class + Gauntlets bonus + Weapon Prof bonus?

OR

Attacks Per Round Based on Lvl / Class + Weapon Prof bonus + Gauntlets bonus?


Now here's why this matters to me:

If I've got Grand Mastery with a bonus of +2 attacks and I'm level 13 with a base of 2 attacks I have 4 attacks per round.

If I get + 1/2 attack and it's factored in before my Grand Mastery bonus I get:

2 + 0.5 + 2....

Which comes to 2.5 or 5/2 + 2 for GM = 7/2 attacks per round. (which is WORSE than without the bonus)

Seven over two (7/2) would be 3 attacks in the first round and 4 attacks in the second round!!!

If I had base attacks set to 4 without the gauntlets I'm now missing one attack per round instead of gaining a bonus half attack!!!!


if it's the other way, where the gauntlets are factored last...it should be:

2 + 2 = 4
4 + 0.5 = 9/2 with 4 attacks in the first round, (2 natural, 2 for grand mastery) and 5 attacks in the second.

Which makes way more sense to me since now you actually GET an extra half attack.

If BG2EE is going to have this new revised Grand Mastery rule, this becomes seriously important for people putting points in for GM.

PLEASE only reply if you get what I'm getting at...but I could do with a bit of interaction on this since I'm trying to set variables for a calculator.


The thread on weapon specializations made me think about this.

Fafnir

Debaser said:

Which comes to 2.5 or 5/2 + 2 for GM = 7/2 attacks per round. (which is WORSE than without the bonus)

It's not 7/2, it's 9/2. You got your math wrong.

It's the same in both cases because additions are commutative.

Debaser

Fafnir said:

Debaser said:

Which comes to 2.5 or 5/2 + 2 for GM = 7/2 attacks per round. (which is WORSE than without the bonus)

It's not 7/2, it's 9/2. You got your math wrong.

@Fafnir -

At the bottom of the first post by me you see that if you factor in the gloves LAST it should be 9/2 which is what I thought it was...but with the way the extra half attacks stack i it's added in prior to weapon prof bonus...it could be all screwy...

I want it to be 9/2, and think it should be...etc. So I'm hoping your right.

Fafnir

It's 9/2 in both cases. It doesn't matter when you factor in the gloves.

2+2+0.5 = 4.5 = 9/2
2+0.5+2 = 4.5 = 9/2

Let me requote with an edit to be clearer:

Debaser said:

Which comes to 2.5 or 5/2 + 2 for GM = 5/2 + 4/2 for GM =9/2 attacks per round.

Debaser

@Fafnir

GREAT so I'm just brain dead since it's so dang late?

helmo1977

Debaser said:

Fafnir said:

Debaser said:

Which comes to 2.5 or 5/2 + 2 for GM = 7/2 attacks per round. (which is WORSE than without the bonus)

It's not 7/2, it's 9/2. You got your math wrong.

@Fafnir -

At the bottom of the first post by me you see that if you factor in the gloves LAST it should be 9/2 which is what I thought it was...but with the way the extra half attacks stack i it's added in prior to weapon prof bonus...it could be all screwy...

I want it to be 9/2, and think it should be...etc. So I'm hoping your right.

Err... I think you are wrong. No matter how you add (as long as you only add) things it will always be the same result. I guess the game knows how to add numbers. Or perhaps there is a bug and the game doesnt add properly. It is not a problem of HOW you add, but a problem of "there is a bug, or thre isnt a bug".

Fafnir

By the way, Grandmastery just gives +1 APR, not two.

Debaser

Fafnir said:

By the way, Grandmastery just gives +1 APR, not two.

Read the manual for BGEE you get 1 at +, 1.5 at ++ through ++++ and 2 attacks at +++++, you do in fact gain two attacks at GM.

I made a level 10 Beserker in The Black Pits to confirm this an age ago. At level 9 with one weapon he was at 5/2 attacks.

Debaser

helmo1977 said:

Debaser said:

Fafnir said:

Debaser said:

Which comes to 2.5 or 5/2 + 2 for GM = 7/2 attacks per round. (which is WORSE than without the bonus)

It's not 7/2, it's 9/2. You got your math wrong.

@Fafnir -

At the bottom of the first post by me you see that if you factor in the gloves LAST it should be 9/2 which is what I thought it was...but with the way the extra half attacks stack i it's added in prior to weapon prof bonus...it could be all screwy...

I want it to be 9/2, and think it should be...etc. So I'm hoping your right.

Err... I think you are wrong. No matter how you add (as long as you only add) things it will always be the same result. I guess the game knows how to add numbers. Or perhaps there is a bug and the game doesnt add properly. It is not a problem of HOW you add, but a problem of "there is a bug, or thre isnt a bug".

@helmo1977

I'm making a calulator to program stats with for a website...the game is fine with this stuff as far as I know, but without BG2EE to confirm how the guants work and get added in I was confused.

Debaser

@Fafnir @helmo1977 -

From the BGEE Manual -

Weapon Specialization

Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, and Rangers (as well as certain other class
kits) can train and hone their weapon skills to higher levels than other
classes. This is accomplished by assigning more proficiencies to a single
weapon class. The following table shows the effects of specialization:

Level of Proficiency / Points Spent / Bonus to Hit / Bonus Damage / Attacks Per Round**
Proficient...........................1.....................0....................0............................1
Specialized*.......................2...................+1..................+2 .........................3/2
Master...............................3...................+3..................+3..........................3/2
High Master.......................4...................+3...................+4.........................3/2
Grand Master.....................5...................+3...................+5...........................2

*Note that only Fighters can hone their weapon skills beyond ―specialized.‖
Archers can only exceed ―specialized‖ with crossbows, longbows, and
shortbows.

**Note that Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, and Barbarians also gain an extra
half-attack per round at 7th level in addition to the extra attacks from
specialization. Non-warriors do not gain additional attacks based on
specialization

Debaser

@Fafnir @helmo1977

Sorry had to edit that so you could read it easier, spacing numbers isn't easy in this raw text format of the forum.

Debaser

@Fafnir @helmo1977

Wait...I think I figured out my problem...it is my math....after copying this chart and looking it over I think I get what you were saying Fafnir. You are correct.

So being proficient doesn't add an extra attack, but being specialized gives 1/2 an attack.

At GM that gets upgraded to 1 extra attack.

At level 7 you gain 1/2
And at level 13 you gain another 1/2 upgrading to 1 extra again. (Base 2 attacks)

So 1 + 1 for GM, + 1 for being level 13 and up...+ 1/2 for Gauntlets of ES = 7/2 attacks.

Where I was getting stuck was looking at that chart...made me think I needed to add an extra attack in from the APR section.

Fafnir

@Debaser that's correct.

Debaser

@Fafnir

OK then let me ask you something. Does this look right?

A two-handed weapon capped out at 7/2 attacks per round with the Gauntlets of ES

VS

A dual wielding fighter with Belm in the offhand AND the Gauntlets which would be 11/2 attacks....(Bass of 4 + 1 for Belms ability + 1/2 for Gauntlets), meaning 5 attacks in round 1 and 6 in round 2.

That being said, two of those attacks would from your offhand...so your main would get 9 attacks total over 2 rounds.

JuliusBorisov

When you're dual-wielding, the weapon in the offhand has 1 additional APR.

So it'll be 1 + 1 for GM, + 1 for being level 13 and up...+ 1/2 for Gauntlets of ES + 1 (that is made by your offhand weapon) = 9/2 attacks

If you equip Belm in the offhand, it not only hits but also gives 1 additional APR to you main hand.

So it'll be 1 + 1 for GM, + 1 for being level 13 and up...+ 1/2 for Gauntlets of ES + 1 (that is given by the special ability of Belm) + 1 (that is made by your offhand weapon) = 11/2 attacks (in the end rounded down to 5 APR, one of which is made by an offhand weapon).

Bigfish

Swords! Not words!

Fenghoang

All +APR is cumulative, so you just add up all the APR bonuses. Offhand will always be capped at 1 APR unless you're IH or GWW. You can also never go over 5 APR, unless you use IH or GWW. The game mechanics of IH reduces the round duration from 6 to 3 (effectively doubling your APR). GWW sets your APR to 5 and then halves the round duration like IH. If you have auto-pause set to end after each round, you'll notice that they only last 3 seconds if you have IH on.

The descriptions in the manual and in the level-up screen (when you're assigned the PIPs) are misleading in their wording. Weapon proficiency basically works like this in the BG series: PIH linkie

Grandmastery in True GM mod and in BGEE adds +1 APR more than the previous Specialization, Mastery, and High Mastery. In other words, it gives you +0.5 APR more than it says in the manual and in the game when you're assigned PIPs or +1.5 APR total. To be honest, I always thought this was more than intended, but it was kept that way in BGEE and they never "fixed" it for BG2Tweaks (or updated the original Baldurdash mod) and it's how it works. Perhaps it's a misinterpretation of how GM works... I dunno.

So for your example, using GoES, you'll end up with 4 APR for 2H'ers and 5 APR for 1H+Belm.

2H: 1(Base) + 1(Lvl13 War) + 1.5(GM) + 0.5(GoES) = 4 APR
1H+Belm: 1(Base) + 1(Belm APR Bonus) + 1(Belm OH) + 1(Lvl13 War) + 1.5(GM) + 0.5(GoES) = 6 APR -> 5 APR (it's rounded down because game caps APR at 5 max without IH/GWW)

If you don't have an XP cap mod for BGEE, you can still test the way GM works ingame if you Dual-class from any class at lvl 2 (or something reasonably low) to a fighter. You get to allocate 4 PIPs, immediately at fighter lvl 1, into any weapon you choose. By the time the fighter is level 3, you'll have GM.

Debaser

Fenghoang said:

All +APR is cumulative, so you just add up all the APR bonuses. Offhand will always be capped at 1 APR unless you're IH or GWW. You can also never go over 5 APR, unless you use IH or GWW. The game mechanics of IH reduces the round duration from 6 to 3 (effectively doubling your APR). GWW sets your APR to 5 and then halves the round duration like IH. If you have auto-pause set to end after each round, you'll notice that they only last 3 seconds if you have IH on.

The descriptions in the manual and in the level-up screen (when you're assigned the PIPs) are misleading in their wording. Weapon proficiency basically works like this in the BG series: PIH linkie

Grandmastery in True GM mod and in BGEE adds +1 APR more than the previous Specialization, Mastery, and High Mastery. In other words, it gives you +0.5 APR more than it says in the manual and in the game when you're assigned PIPs or +1.5 APR total. To be honest, I always thought this was more intended, but it was kept that way in BGEE and they never "fixed" it for BG2Tweaks (or updated the original Baldurdash mod) and it's how it works. Perhaps it's a misinterpretation of how GM works... I dunno.

So for your example, using GoES, you'll end up with 4 APR for 2H'ers and 5 APR for 1H+Belm.

2H: 1(Base) + 1(Lvl13 War) + 1.5(GM) + 0.5(GoES) = 4 APR
1H+Belm: 1(Base) + 1(Belm APR Bonus) + 1(Belm OH) + 1(Lvl13 War) + 1.5(GM) + 0.5(GoES) = 5.5 APR -> 5 APR (it's rounded down because game caps APR at 5 max without IH/GWW)

If you don't have an XP cap mod for BGEE, you can still test the way GM works ingame if you Dual-class from any class at lvl 2 (or something reasonably low) to a fighter. You get to allocate 4 PIPs, immediately at fighter lvl 1, into any weapon you choose. By the time the fighter is level 3, you'll have GM.

@Fenghoang

In patch 6 for BGEE 2 When I take my sword out of my lvl 10 beserker's hand in the Black Pits I go from 5/2 to 3/2 natural. He's a Grandmaster in 2Handed Swords...so he's only losing 1 APR. I have no outside mods...so I'm not sure where you're getting the True Grand Mastery Mod with 1.5 Attacks at five points...seems like it just goes to a full 1 attack to me.

I used to use True Grand Mastery for BG2...which might be another reason for the cobwebs in my brain to be so thick while doing all this.

Fafnir

@Fenghoang iirc it was implemented in the way you described in the old True GM mod, but currently in BGEE the difference between ++ and +++++ is only 0.5.

Debaser

@Fenghoang @Fafnir

Fenghoang said attacks cap out at 5 per round. (Ten with Improved Haste or Greater Whirlwind.)

(I find that part of the post most insightful BTW!)

If that's true then using the Gauntlets of ES + Blem or Kundane at high levels WON'T get you to 11/2 attacks Meaning the best you could do is Grand Master in something and wield an offhand weapon that gives you a bonus attack. With Greater Whirlwind or Improved haste you'd get 8 attacks mainhand and 2 attacks offhand.

Where as Greater WW with a Two-Hander at 7/2 attacks...WILL get you close to 10 attacks with a main-hand weapon.

Not that this matters at all if you wield Flail of the Ages Mainhand...oy...some of these test calcs are getting scary with it.

Fafnir

That's correct. However, GWW will give you 10 attacks (or rather, 5 and 3 sec rounds) no matter what's your base. So a THSword grandmaster with 7/2 attacks and a that same character wielding a dagger nonproficiently (2, 5/2 with the gloves) would get the same amount of attacks.

Debaser

@Fafnir

Flail of the Ages is way overpowered. Far more than I thought...also Critical Strike is proving to be extremely good, maybe the one ability that justifies all the fighter HLA to me from looking at how numbers can skew so fast.

Fenghoang

Don't know. I'm running update 6 (v1.0.2012) with only the Simple XP Cap remover installed.

Here's what I'm getting with a CLUAConsoled fighter @ lvl 9 with 5* in Two-Handed Sword:


Here's him bare-handed:

Fafnir

Weird, I'll have to test that again once I'm at home. I may have been mistaken.

karnor00

Debaser said:

@Fafnir

Flail of the Ages is way overpowered. Far more than I thought...also Critical Strike is proving to be extremely good, maybe the one ability that justifies all the fighter HLA to me from looking at how numbers can skew so fast.

The problem with Critical Strike is that pretty much all the tough opponents are immune to critical hits. So really Critical Strike just helps you mow through trash faster, which really isn't that helpful.

Lord_Tansheron

Keep in mind that even against enemies immune to critical hits, rolling all 20s will guarantee that every attack lands, making it still a valuable skill. Also, far less enemies than you think are actually immune to crits...

TJ_Hooker

Fenghoang said:

Don't know. I'm running update 6 (v1.0.2012) with only the Simple XP Cap remover installed.

Here's what I'm getting with a CLUAConsoled fighter @ lvl 9 with 5* in Two-Handed Sword:
image

Here's him bare-handed:
image

Weird, I rolled up a near identical character and am only getting 5/2 attacks with a 2H sword. The only difference is that I don't have the xp cap removed, so I went Thief->Fighter so I could get GM.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Fenghoang

@Debaser @TJ_Hooker @Fafnir @subtledoctor

You guys are right. BGEE only adds an extra 0.5 APR for GM.

I figured out why my version was giving me 1 APR instead of the correct 0.5 APR. It was the the XP cap remover mod I installed, except the one I linked wasn't the one I installed. I forgot that I downloaded two different XP cap removers to try out in case one didn't work or was buggy. The first one I installed worked fine and since the APR gain from GM matched the old "True" GM mod from BG2, I never thought twice about it.

The one I actually had installed was this one: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/10900/xp-mod-teambgs-level-40-rule-sethigh-level-abilities/p1

I think I chose to test that one out first because it included the HLAs as well as just lifting the XP Cap. Not that I planned on ever reaching the level that you could get them, but I probably figured the mod was more complete or something. However, after looking at the mod's overrides, I noticed it contained a Wspatck.2da file with a modified date of 1/30/2000, which modifies the weapon proficiencies (including GM). It was probably the same file as the "True" GM mod from Baldurdash/BG2Tweaks. After deleting that file, I'm getting the same results as @TJ_Hooker and @Debaser

BGEE does indeed have the correct GM. Like in my previous post, I always thought that the "True" GM mod added more than intended and never understood why they never updated it in the BG2Tweak pack. I figured I was misinterpreting the wording in the manual or the manual was wrong (which it often was).

I'm glad that it all got sorted out now. Sorry for the confusion/misinformation. =(

Fafnir

Ah, that's what happened. I never understood either why they made the True GM mod that way.

Glaykith

I believe True GM was implemented the way it was because some sources describe GM as an additional full attack above and beyond specialization when describing PnP rules.

e.g., http://www.zayix.com/pages/character_creation/Skills/Weapon_w2.html#grandmastery

Now, whether this is actually correct or not per the official rule books, I have no idea.