Please explain backstabbing

philly2silly

Can somebody please explain how backstabbing works for thieves?

ryuken87

- Have a weapon equipped that is capable of a backstab. This is any melee weapon a single class thief can use without Use Any Item.
- Make sure you are hidden (either stealthed or invisible).
- Position yourself behind the target (you have to do this, but enemies can backstab you from any angle).
- Attack. The attack roll will be made with a +4 bonus. Even if you miss you become visible.

Wilbur

I think @ryuken87 said it all.

And weirdly enough you can also "backstab" with a staff.

Drakelore

Remember that if you are dual-wielding you will attack with the weapon with the lowest speed factor (the fastest weapon) like the "shortsword of backstabbing" it has a speed factor of 0.
So keep in mind that you will benefit from having a weapon with the lowest speed factor in your mainhand when you want to backstab someone to receive the highest hit chance.

helmo1977

ryuken87 said:

- Have a weapon equipped that is capable of a backstab. This is any melee weapon a single class thief can use without Use Any Item.
- Make sure you are hidden (either stealthed or invisible).
- Position yourself behind the target (you have to do this, but enemies can backstab you from any angle).
- Attack. The attack roll will be made with a +4 bonus. Even if you miss you become visible.

I would swear you didnt become visible IF you were invisible. I mean invisible, as per the spell, not concealed.

TJ_Hooker

Wilbur said:

I think @ryuken87 said it all.

And weirdly enough you can also "backstab" with a staff.

Even weirder is that staves are actually the best backstabbing weapons in both BG1 and BG2.

Madhax

Drakelore said:

Remember that if you are dual-wielding you will attack with the weapon with the lowest speed factor (the fastest weapon) like the "shortsword of backstabbing" it has a speed factor of 0.
So keep in mind that you will benefit from having a weapon with the lowest speed factor in your mainhand when you want to backstab someone to receive the highest hit chance.

This information has been floating around a while on various forums, but last time someone tested it it seems that the backstab always occurs with the main-hand weapon. I'll test it myself when I get home.

helmo1977 said:

ryuken87 said:

- Have a weapon equipped that is capable of a backstab. This is any melee weapon a single class thief can use without Use Any Item.
- Make sure you are hidden (either stealthed or invisible).
- Position yourself behind the target (you have to do this, but enemies can backstab you from any angle).
- Attack. The attack roll will be made with a +4 bonus. Even if you miss you become visible.

I would swear you didnt become visible IF you were invisible. I mean invisible, as per the spell, not concealed.

Any offensive action always breaks invisibility, backstabbing is no different.

Wilbur

helmo1977 said:

ryuken87 said:

- Have a weapon equipped that is capable of a backstab. This is any melee weapon a single class thief can use without Use Any Item.
- Make sure you are hidden (either stealthed or invisible).
- Position yourself behind the target (you have to do this, but enemies can backstab you from any angle).
- Attack. The attack roll will be made with a +4 bonus. Even if you miss you become visible.

I would swear you didnt become visible IF you were invisible. I mean invisible, as per the spell, not concealed.

The spell Improved Invisibility allows you to remain invisible even after attacking while "normal" invisibility wears off when you attack.

helmo1977

Wilbur said:

helmo1977 said:

ryuken87 said:

- Have a weapon equipped that is capable of a backstab. This is any melee weapon a single class thief can use without Use Any Item.
- Make sure you are hidden (either stealthed or invisible).
- Position yourself behind the target (you have to do this, but enemies can backstab you from any angle).
- Attack. The attack roll will be made with a +4 bonus. Even if you miss you become visible.

I would swear you didnt become visible IF you were invisible. I mean invisible, as per the spell, not concealed.

The spell Improved Invisibility allows you to remain invisible even after attacking while "normal" invisibility wears off when you attack.

To be clearer. IN BG 1 if you hit your target while invisible, you become visible, but if you dont hit it, you dont become visible, IIRC. While beign concealed yuo always become visible, no matter if you hit or not.

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bill_zagoudis

you must attack while they cannot see you (stealthed or invisible)
damage is if i'm not mistaken (base*backstab modifier)+all additional damage,crits do not multiply the backstab damage only base hit damage so a thif with x5 modifier will hit for 6 times more damage on crit not 10

Oxford_Guy

bill_zagoudis said:

you must attack while they cannot see you (stealthed or invisible)

Although Cleric/Thieves *cannot* backstab from Sanctuary, unless also stealthed by some other means (hiding or Inivisibility Spell/Potion)

JuliusBorisov

In the game if a thief misses the first time, his invisibility from the thieving abilities stays (the longevity is decided by a stat of Move Silently) and he can hit the second time - if it's a hit then it's a backstab.

I say it from my gaming experience. But you must micromanage to successfully imply this.

Kenji

Wilbur said:

I think @ryuken87 said it all.

And weirdly enough you can also "backstab" with a staff.

It's called backstaved.

TJ_Hooker

bengoshi said:

In the game if a thief misses the first time, his invisibility from the thieving abilities stays (the longevity is decided by a stat of Move Silently) and he can hit the second time - if it's a hit then it's a backstab.

I say it from my gaming experience. But you must micromanage to successfully imply this.

The thief will become visible as soon as he swings, regardles of hit or miss. It may look like the thief stays visible after a miss, but this is only because the there are additional swing animations in combat that don't correspond to an actual attack (turn on to-hit rolls to see when you actually attack).

helmo1977 said:

To be clearer. IN BG 1 if you hit your target while invisible, you become visible, but if you dont hit it, you dont become visible, IIRC. While beign concealed yuo always become visible, no matter if you hit or not.

You become invisible immediately, even if you miss, at least in EE.

blainedeyoung

Can you backstab with a longsword?

Why would you think a staff would be the best backstabbing weapon? What staves?

Is weapon speed important?

Gotural

On the contrary, crit multiplies the damage of a backstab (a x5 backstab crit equal x10 damage).

And no, the HiS doesn't always break if you fail your backstab, i think it depends on the duration left of the round.

TJ_Hooker

blainedeyoung said:

Can you backstab with a longsword?

Why would you think a staff would be the best backstabbing weapon? What staves?

Is weapon speed important?

1) Yes
2) Staff of Striking in BG1, Staff of the Ram in BG2. Both have huge bonuses to damage that are multiplied by your backstab modifier.
3) It's convenient to have low speed factor, but not critical in my opinion.

Corvino

If you're single- or dual-wielding then you can backstab with a Longsword, Scimitar/Ninja-to/Wakazashi or Katana for d8 or d10 damage rolls. However, the large flat +damage bonuses you get with the Staff of Striking or Staff of the Ram mean they lead to bigger hits overall.

If you plan on not restealthing after the initial backstab then dual-wielding gives you the best options. If you chug a potion of invisibility afterward and backstab again then staves win out.

Gotural

F/M/T are kings of backstabs from the start to the end of BG.

TJ_Hooker

Gotural said:

And no, the HiS doesn't always break if you fail your backstab, i think it depends on the duration left of the round.

Just tested it out a bit with a thief with ~150 move silently and hide in shadows. Every single time he attacked, hit or miss, he immediately left stealth. Like I said earlier in the thread, if it looks like a thief is managing to stay hidden after a miss, it's only because the miss wasn't a real attack, and was just a cosmetic swing animation.

Gotural

@TJ_Hooker‌ Ah yes you're totally right, i didn't read your entire sentence sorry !

xstokerx

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