RDD on it's own was never super, it was always used (at least by myself and others I played with) to boost stats (str/con/ac) or as gravy since you were using some caster classes anyway. You don't really hit enough levels in BG (and are stuck with the Dual Classing system which is harder to powergame with anyway) to really properly abuse the passive bonuses you get with it, although I could be wrong!
Shadowdancer on the other hand is pretty brutal. I basically created a character (8 Shadowdancer 9 Fighter iirc), equipped it with stuff from the black pits and went on to solo Durlag's Tower and several other fights without so much as breaking a sweat. I killed Drizzt with 3/4 backstabs without him even getting the chance to move.... The main drawback it would have is having to baby it while you dual class it with something (with the way the EXP limit in BG works it's almost silly to not multi/dual class something, especially with higher exp required classes [in black pits it's easier to abuse this mind you since that uses level 10 as the limit which can be as high as 500k as opposed to 161k exp])
I'm going to start a new game with an evil party, I'll maybe see if anyone else on the Skype group is up for it later on today so I can try out either RDD or Blackguard based characters in a 'normal' setting to test how they play from early game to late game.
Come on now... Shadowdancer isn't that bad. 3-4 backstabs means it took you 3-4 rounds to kill Drizzt with a maxxed out Black Pits dual class character (with Black Pits gear)? So what? A druid can beat him in half that time just by summoning a couple werebears!
Shadowdancer on the other hand is pretty brutal. I basically created a character (8 Shadowdancer 9 Fighter iirc), equipped it with stuff from the black pits and went on to solo Durlag's Tower and several other fights without so much as breaking a sweat. I killed Drizzt with 3/4 backstabs without him even getting the chance to move.... The main drawback it would have is having to baby it while you dual class it with something (with the way the EXP limit in BG works it's almost silly to not multi/dual class something, especially with higher exp required classes [in black pits it's easier to abuse this mind you since that uses level 10 as the limit which can be as high as 500k as opposed to 161k exp])
I don't doubt that Shadowdancers are powerful, but if you remove the level cap and play with items not normally available (or just normally harder to get) in the game as you have done, talking about your exploits in the main campaign doesn't really mean a whole lot when trying to establish whether a class is powerful or not.
What @TJ_Hooker said. Every charname, even a 75 roll vanilla-something gets OP if you remove the level cap and give them items you usually wouldn't have. Makes no difference if you got them "legally" in Black Pits; they aren't meant to be on a charname starting in Candlekeep. If anything, they are meant to be found much later.
The items from Black Pits aren't substantially better than some of the kit found in the original campaign and having 500k exp to play with doesn't make anything significantly different as oppose to 161k for someone with hide in plain sight. Once you get to the point where you can stealth on the fly without it failing most times every single battle becomes trivial to the point where you need to impose silly rules on yourself such as only using one backstab per fight which just takes away the entire point of using the kit anyway.
My point is, the kit is an all or nothing job until such times as the NPC's in the game have a way to detect you more reliably without using a true/false system like a spell granting vision 100% of the time. It's either going to outright win you a fight because you can't possibly be killed or it becomes almost pointless because the NPC/Monster has something like true seeing on them.
I like playing with stealth based classes but on 2nd Edition it's just one of those things that's handled poorly and needed a serious rework.
@Madhax Perception changes quite much in that case. Anyway, my opinion remain the same. And I do not expect you to understand my concern about "overpowered" kits. It would require too much explanations from me, so I think I'll pass on that.
@ZelgadisGW That's fine. This is an opinion, after all, and you're more than welcome to your own opinion. Besides, I'm sure we'll see plenty of rebalancing and adjusting to these new kits, as well as any others that we receive from Overhaul, as development continues on the saga.
Can't wait for an Arcane Archer kit that allows arrows to actually hit targets that require +4, and maybe fireball arrow and the like :-) Can they design kit/multi classes? Like an arcane archer as a fighter/Mage? Too unfamiliar with 2nd Ed so this could be prestige nonsense from 3rd Ed that I am trying to mention. But from level 1 a fighter/Mage that got unique archery stuff would be cool.
Can't wait for an Arcane Archer kit that allows arrows to actually hit targets that require +4, and maybe fireball arrow and the like :-) Can they design kit/multi classes? Like an arcane archer as a fighter/Mage? Too unfamiliar with 2nd Ed so this could be prestige nonsense from 3rd Ed that I am trying to mention. But from level 1 a fighter/Mage that got unique archery stuff would be cool.
I was actually writing a Feature Request post for kitted multiclasses, but abandoned it because I couldn't think of more possibilities than Zerths for F/M or Priests of Mask for C/T. Arcane Archer would be a cool F/M kit if this was incorporated, but there would probably need to be kits for other multiclass combinations first to make this a worthwhile pursuit.
I am SO confused right now. "The advantages outweight the disadvantages."
well YEA. You know what you do with a class where the disadvantages outweigh the advantages? YOU NEVER PLAY IT. Example:
Wizard Slayer.
Disadvantages are not there to hinder you to the point where you're fighting with only one arm. A Cavalier has ONE disadvantage: "No Missile Weapons" A stalker has ONE disadvantage: "May only wear studded leather."
Where are the arguments and gripes about at least those two?
Can't wait for an Arcane Archer kit that allows arrows to actually hit targets that require +4, and maybe fireball arrow and the like :-) Can they design kit/multi classes? Like an arcane archer as a fighter/Mage? Too unfamiliar with 2nd Ed so this could be prestige nonsense from 3rd Ed that I am trying to mention. But from level 1 a fighter/Mage that got unique archery stuff would be cool.
You would have to list it as an option on the multi-class menu, but the kit itself would have to be applied to one or the other of the base classes.
e.g. "Arcane Archer" would appear as a seperate listing on the multi-class table, but selecting it would actually make you an Arcane Archer/mage, with the modifcations applying to fighter abilities, mage abilities being aquired as normal.
I am SO confused right now. "The advantages outweight the disadvantages."
well YEA. You know what you do with a class where the disadvantages outweigh the advantages? YOU NEVER PLAY IT. Example:
Wizard Slayer.
Disadvantages are not there to hinder you to the point where you're fighting with only one arm. A Cavalier has ONE disadvantage: "No Missile Weapons" A stalker has ONE disadvantage: "May only wear studded leather."
Where are the arguments and gripes about at least those two?
On a general level, I would never settle for ignoring things which I believe could be better. I would provide arguments for why I believe it should be changed. Also, noone said disadvantages should be crippling. I believe the power level of kits should remain more or less the same as that of the base class.
Faux disadvantages include: alignment restrictions (do not affect combat), high minimum ability scores (which are given by default), and thing which will never apply anyway (The +10 to Hit & Damage with Axes Kit cannot use swords).
None of them... i would stick to 2nd edition already existing kits and not take from 3rd edition Dnd Prestige classes...
I would recommend instead
Wizard Kit Sha'ir (who can cast both divine and wizard spells and have a familiar and a Genie pet at high lvl), Special hindernce should be that they can cast less spells per day than a wizard and cleric
Sha'ir would be excellent add on because people from semphar, Thommar, Ulgarth, Parsanic, Doegan, Konigheim and edenvale usually have that kit except the Zakhara continent)
Fighter Kit Samurai More Kara-tur classes never hurts we already have Monk and Kensai..
Priest Kit
Airwalkers (Priest of Akadi) Very active in Hordelands and Shaar Earthwalkers (Priest of Grumbar) Very Active in Halruaa Waterwalkers (Priest Of Istishia) Very Active in Luskan, Waterdeep, Calimport,Suzail and so on) Firewalkers (Priest of Kossuth) Very Active In Anauroch desert, Thay,
Never Before has there been anything about the elementals Gods of forgotten realms in any game... would be lovly to see them for a change. plus coding Elemental Gods Priest should be easier than the other gods..
Thing is, charname is from Candlekeep and even if the heritage contains a link to all the regions you list, they were a baby and didn't grow up there. So having a class that is typically found in Thay doesn't really make sense. I would prefer it if the classes/kits had a good reason to exist, so the priest kits should relate to deities worshipped along the Sword Coast, not in places that far away.
Candlekeep is famous for having lots of diffrient people of diffrent classes so thats works that is a Sha'ir master could be there to do some researches... by the way Sha'ir are in 2nd edition something you are born with... almost like sorcerer...
Ahhh... same thing there.... those country is were they have their biggest churches... they can have churches everywere... aslo Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, And Kossuth are greater god of forgotten realms... there priest are everywere
Then That would be a specialty priest of Tempus.... but still I was thinking that those elemenental Priest would take less time to code for the programers than doing something totaly new from scratch....
Then That would be a specialty priest of Tempus.... but still I was thinking that those elemenental Priest would take less time to code for the programers than doing something totaly new from scratch....
Priest of Tempus
-Can specialize in warhammers and any weapon style -+1 to damage and to hit -2 APR at level 13 -Spiritual hammer similar to a Priest of Helm's Seeking Sword in all respects except it does the base damage of a normal warhammer (1d4) once per day per every 10 levels, starts at level 1 with one use. -Alignment: restricted to Chaotic Good/Neutral/Evil
That's all just off the top of my head in the last two minutes and doesn't seem extremely hard to code at all compared to some of the other kits, I'm sure most other deities that are more in line with Sword Coast culture can be done just as easily.
Edit: Of course I'm not saying my Priest of Tempus is balanced or well thought out, just illustrating the ease with which conceivably any kit can be implemented within the existing Baldur's Gate code.
A Catholic Priest would be OP... restrictions - can only wear black and white robes, can only romance little boys
The shade, the shade of it all!
I'm going a step further, I would love to see a new class (not kit) implemented to the game, like Psionics. But that is probably never going to happen... Also we need more race restricted kits like Dwarf Defender.
Then That would be a specialty priest of Tempus.... but still I was thinking that those elemenental Priest would take less time to code for the programers than doing something totaly new from scratch....
Priest of Tempus
-Can specialize in warhammers and any weapon style -+1 to damage and to hit -2 APR at level 13 -Spiritual hammer similar to a Priest of Helm's Seeking Sword in all respects except it does the base damage of a normal warhammer (1d4) once per day per every 10 levels, starts at level 1 with one use. -Alignment: restricted to Chaotic Good/Neutral/Evil
That's all just off the top of my head in the last two minutes and doesn't seem extremely hard to code at all compared to some of the other kits, I'm sure most other deities that are more in line with Sword Coast culture can be done just as easily.
Looks very OP (especially the 2 APR) unless you have some drawbacks to throw in.
Then That would be a specialty priest of Tempus.... but still I was thinking that those elemenental Priest would take less time to code for the programers than doing something totaly new from scratch....
Priest of Tempus
-Can specialize in warhammers and any weapon style -+1 to damage and to hit -2 APR at level 13 -Spiritual hammer similar to a Priest of Helm's Seeking Sword in all respects except it does the base damage of a normal warhammer (1d4) once per day per every 10 levels, starts at level 1 with one use. -Alignment: restricted to Chaotic Good/Neutral/Evil
That's all just off the top of my head in the last two minutes and doesn't seem extremely hard to code at all compared to some of the other kits, I'm sure most other deities that are more in line with Sword Coast culture can be done just as easily.
Looks very OP (especially the 2 APR) unless you have some drawbacks to throw in.
Yeah, like I said, on second thought it looks imbalanced, perhaps reduce the amount of priest spells available, or remove the 2 APR, or both, not claiming it's definitive.
I also though of maybe replacing the Spiritual Hammer with a Berserker Rage (the same one as the Berskerker kit) but that also seemed kind of OP.
-Can specialize in warhammers -Spiritual Hammer once per day per every 5 levels, starts at level 1 with one use. (keeps it in line with Branwen) -May Rage for +1 to hit and damage, 15 bonus hp, -2 (penalty) to armour class, winded after use, 1 per day per 10 levels. -Alignment: restricted to CN, CG, CE, TN -May not wear plate armour.
Actually the Special Priest of Tempus are called Battleguard Battleguard: Req: Str14 and Wis12 weapon: all bludgeoning weapon plus one weapon of choise Alig: C.G, C.N and C.E Armor: any
Special benifit: Berserker rage 10 round themselves plus others that are close to him gets same Con bonus as Warriors lvl 5 Cast prayer once per day lvl 7 attack per round 2/3 lvl 13 two attack per round
Special hindernce: no range weapon except for axes and darts
well thats all the fact i remember about Battleguard of tempus..
Ps Cyric special priest are called Strifeleaders...
Comments
RDD on it's own was never super, it was always used (at least by myself and others I played with) to boost stats (str/con/ac) or as gravy since you were using some caster classes anyway. You don't really hit enough levels in BG (and are stuck with the Dual Classing system which is harder to powergame with anyway) to really properly abuse the passive bonuses you get with it, although I could be wrong!
Shadowdancer on the other hand is pretty brutal. I basically created a character (8 Shadowdancer 9 Fighter iirc), equipped it with stuff from the black pits and went on to solo Durlag's Tower and several other fights without so much as breaking a sweat. I killed Drizzt with 3/4 backstabs without him even getting the chance to move.... The main drawback it would have is having to baby it while you dual class it with something (with the way the EXP limit in BG works it's almost silly to not multi/dual class something, especially with higher exp required classes [in black pits it's easier to abuse this mind you since that uses level 10 as the limit which can be as high as 500k as opposed to 161k exp])
I'm going to start a new game with an evil party, I'll maybe see if anyone else on the Skype group is up for it later on today so I can try out either RDD or Blackguard based characters in a 'normal' setting to test how they play from early game to late game.
My point is, the kit is an all or nothing job until such times as the NPC's in the game have a way to detect you more reliably without using a true/false system like a spell granting vision 100% of the time. It's either going to outright win you a fight because you can't possibly be killed or it becomes almost pointless because the NPC/Monster has something like true seeing on them.
I like playing with stealth based classes but on 2nd Edition it's just one of those things that's handled poorly and needed a serious rework.
Perception changes quite much in that case. Anyway, my opinion remain the same. And I do not expect you to understand my concern about "overpowered" kits. It would require too much explanations from me, so I think I'll pass on that.
That's fine. This is an opinion, after all, and you're more than welcome to your own opinion. Besides, I'm sure we'll see plenty of rebalancing and adjusting to these new kits, as well as any others that we receive from Overhaul, as development continues on the saga.
well YEA. You know what you do with a class where the disadvantages outweigh the advantages? YOU NEVER PLAY IT. Example:
Wizard Slayer.
Disadvantages are not there to hinder you to the point where you're fighting with only one arm. A Cavalier has ONE disadvantage: "No Missile Weapons" A stalker has ONE disadvantage: "May only wear studded leather."
Where are the arguments and gripes about at least those two?
e.g. "Arcane Archer" would appear as a seperate listing on the multi-class table, but selecting it would actually make you an Arcane Archer/mage, with the modifcations applying to fighter abilities, mage abilities being aquired as normal.
Faux disadvantages include: alignment restrictions (do not affect combat), high minimum ability scores (which are given by default), and thing which will never apply anyway (The +10 to Hit & Damage with Axes Kit cannot use swords).
I would recommend instead
Wizard Kit
Sha'ir (who can cast both divine and wizard spells and have a familiar and a Genie pet at high lvl), Special hindernce should be that they can cast less spells per day than a wizard and cleric
Sha'ir would be excellent add on because people from semphar, Thommar, Ulgarth, Parsanic, Doegan, Konigheim and edenvale usually have that kit except the Zakhara continent)
Fighter Kit
Samurai
More Kara-tur classes never hurts we already have Monk and Kensai..
Priest Kit
Airwalkers (Priest of Akadi) Very active in Hordelands and Shaar
Earthwalkers (Priest of Grumbar) Very Active in Halruaa
Waterwalkers (Priest Of Istishia) Very Active in Luskan, Waterdeep, Calimport,Suzail and so on)
Firewalkers (Priest of Kossuth) Very Active In Anauroch desert, Thay,
Never Before has there been anything about the elementals Gods of forgotten realms in any game... would be lovly to see them for a change. plus coding Elemental Gods Priest should be easier than the other gods..
Thieves Kit
Investigator
Spy
Bard Kit
Charlatan
Gallant
Ranger Kit
Giant Killer
Paladin Kit
Militarist
Wyrmslayer
Fighter/Mage Kit
Bladesinger (elf only)
that is a Sha'ir master could be there to do some researches...
by the way Sha'ir are in 2nd edition something you are born with... almost like sorcerer...
but still I was thinking that those elemenental Priest would take less time to code for the programers than doing something totaly new from scratch....
-Can specialize in warhammers and any weapon style
-+1 to damage and to hit
-2 APR at level 13
-Spiritual hammer similar to a Priest of Helm's Seeking Sword in all respects except it does the base damage of a normal warhammer (1d4) once per day per every 10 levels, starts at level 1 with one use.
-Alignment: restricted to Chaotic Good/Neutral/Evil
That's all just off the top of my head in the last two minutes and doesn't seem extremely hard to code at all compared to some of the other kits, I'm sure most other deities that are more in line with Sword Coast culture can be done just as easily.
Edit: Of course I'm not saying my Priest of Tempus is balanced or well thought out, just illustrating the ease with which conceivably any kit can be implemented within the existing Baldur's Gate code.
I'm going a step further, I would love to see a new class (not kit) implemented to the game, like Psionics. But that is probably never going to happen... Also we need more race restricted kits like Dwarf Defender.
I also though of maybe replacing the Spiritual Hammer with a Berserker Rage (the same one as the Berskerker kit) but that also seemed kind of OP.
-Can specialize in warhammers
-Spiritual Hammer once per day per every 5 levels, starts at level 1 with one use. (keeps it in line with Branwen)
-May Rage for +1 to hit and damage, 15 bonus hp, -2 (penalty) to armour class, winded after use, 1 per day per 10 levels.
-Alignment: restricted to CN, CG, CE, TN
-May not wear plate armour.
I dare you.
"Halfling assassins cure pedophilia", -- N
Battleguard:
Req: Str14 and Wis12
weapon: all bludgeoning weapon plus one weapon of choise
Alig: C.G, C.N and C.E
Armor: any
Special benifit: Berserker rage 10 round themselves plus others that are close to him
gets same Con bonus as Warriors
lvl 5 Cast prayer once per day
lvl 7 attack per round 2/3
lvl 13 two attack per round
Special hindernce:
no range weapon except for axes and darts
well thats all the fact i remember about Battleguard of tempus..
Ps Cyric special priest are called Strifeleaders...