Incorrect spells per day for Dragon Disciple

PGoeran

On PC.

Current behaviour: Level 1 Dragon Disciple can cast a maximum of two spells per day.

Expected behaviour: Level 1 Dragon Disciple should be able to cast three spells per day.

The kit description of the Disciple states that its disadvantage should be one less known spell for each spell level, but nothing about less spells per day.

Edit:This is with update 7 / game version 1.0.2014

Fenghoang

ATM, Dragon Disciples get -1 casts per spell level in comparison to vanilla Sorceror. They're also able to learn the same number of spells, as a vanilla sorc, even though their kit disadvantage says they can only learn up to four per spell level.

I agree that it doesn't coincide with what the kit description is saying. I'm also curious if this is intended and the tool-tip is just wrong/misleading.

PawnSlayer

This is highly unfortunate, as I was looking forward to playing as this class. Looking forward to an answer!

butsam

I went over a list of spells with a friend, and we came to the conclusion that one less spell per level is basically just about no disadvantage, and makes a very powerful class extremely OP. It makes more sense to lose 1 cast per level, per day...so I am guessing it is probably a kit description bug.

mlnevese

@Jalily Can shed some light whether the Kit description is wrong or if it's a bug.

Drusyc

@butsam
To "cap" a spell level, a Sorceror can learn a maximum of six spells and cast six spells per level per day.

I.e., Level 1 will progress until there are six spells in the spellbook, each castable six times. Due to constraints, this is obviously not possible in BG:EE for level (2?) 3 and 4 spells.

Edit: So we're actually losing two spells per level, not that it makes a difference. Dragon Breath eliminates the need for Fireball, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow and Chromatic Orb to deal with regenerating creatures.


@mlnevese
The discrepancy is with the kit description wording. If the kit description calls for a Dragon Disciple to LEARN up to four spells per level, then we should only have access to 4 spells per level, castable 6 times per level per day.

If the kit description calls for a Dragon Disciple to MEMORIZE up to four spells per level, then we should have access to 6 spells per level, castable 4 times per level per day.

IIRC Sorceror lore states that Sorcerors cast from raw magic, i.e., they don't have to memorize spells and just "get tired" after casting a certain amount. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's the case, then the idea of losing spells to cast per level makes no sense in any respect of the game since a Dragon Disciple could merely choose not to use their fire breath. The idea of learning less would, of course, make sense since they devote more time to dragon arts than arcane arts.

PGoeran

@Drusyc
Actually, while a plain Sorcerer can cast a (maximum) of six spells per spell level, they never learn more then five different spells for each spell level.

As for what is more disadvantageous, I would argue that having access to only four known spells would hamper more than five casts instead of six. That's just my very subjective opinion.

Bercon

I think the description is just wrong. It should say "spells cast per day". Thus, minor bug that doesn't affect gameplay.

Pecca

From 2DA files, maximum spells per day:

Dragon disciple:

x.... 1 2 3 4 5
1.... 1 0 0 0 0
2.... 2 0 0 0 0
3.... 3 0 0 0 0
4.... 4 1 0 0 0
5.... 4 2 0 0 0
6.... 4 3 1 0 0
7.... 4 4 2 0 0
8.... 4 4 3 1 0
9.... 4 4 4 2 0
10... 4 4 4 3 1

Sorcerer:

x.... 1 2 3 4 5
1.... 3 0 0 0 0
2.... 4 0 0 0 0
3.... 5 0 0 0 0
4.... 6 3 0 0 0
5.... 6 4 0 0 0
6.... 6 5 3 0 0
7.... 6 6 4 0 0
8.... 6 6 5 3 0
9.... 6 6 6 4 0
10... 6 6 6 5 3

PGoeran

Odd, my level 10 Dragon Disciple have one more spell to cast per level than what the above table describes and the same was true at level one. In between that I can't say for sure, but I'd hazard a guess that the pattern held; one more spell than the table Pecca posted. The progression of known spells has followed that of an ordinary Sorcerer.

Pecca

Yes, their disadvantage says they can only get up to four spells per level (as in the table) but they actually get up to five. I'd say that's a bug.

Drusyc

@Pgoeran, thanks for the correction, apparently I just like the number 6.

At any rate, I'm also able to cast 5 per level.

theperm222

Pure sorc looks a lot better from those tables if indeed thats a bug... one less spell per level doesn't seem significant, but 2, yeah definitely. Don't think the advantages are worth it for loss of 2 per level, but with only 1 loss per level, DD all the way.

Madhax

My current level 3 Dragon Disciple is getting only 1 less spell per level than a regular sorcerer, which seems logically balanced. 2 less spells per level would cripple the class's spellcasting.

I don't think the current issue is a discrepancy between "knowing" spells and "preparing" spells, but rather an issue of a disconnect between different versions of the Dragon Disciple. Either we have an earlier version of the Disciple and they meant to release the one that knew fewer spells, or we have a newer version of the Disciple and were given an older kit description.

Fenghoang

Either way... it's inconsistent with the kit description. I still don't know which one is intended - reduced spells learned per level or reduced casts per level.

Jalily

Reduced casts per level (by 1) is intended. The description will be updated.

PugPug

1 fewer spells known: Why be a Sorcerer?
2 fewer spells per day: Why be a Dragon Disciple?

Madhax

Thanks @Jalily, good to know.

@PugPug
Eh, this seems like the best possible drawback. 2 less spells per day would cripple the class, but 2 fewer known spells per level likely wouldn't affect experienced players at all, particularly with regular mage support. Sorcerers will still probably be the superior class late in the game.

Pecca

@Jalily
It's intended to be reduced by 1? Then I don't understand why the table show reduction by 2.

Fardragon

Pecca said:

@Jalily
It's intended to be reduced by 1? Then I don't understand why the table show reduction by 2.

It is reduced by 1 spell per day. I tested it in game up to level 9. I don't know what it's doing with the table you found, but it doesn't corespond to what is happening in the game. I suspect it's old data that hasn't been removed.

SpaceInvader

End game kitted mages will cast more spells then kitted sorcerer... Great

Fenghoang

Fardragon said:

Pecca said:

@Jalily
It's intended to be reduced by 1? Then I don't understand why the table show reduction by 2.

It is reduced by 1 spell per day. I tested it in game up to level 9. I don't know what it's doing with the table you found, but it doesn't corespond to what is happening in the game. I suspect it's old data that hasn't been removed.

I've tested up to lvl 20 DD and they get up to 5 spells per level (i.e. -1 in comparison to the Sorc at all levels - kind of like a Specialist mage vs vanilla mage) - so the table is "wrong" as well. Or more precisely, it's as if it's 4 spells a level with the addition of a specialist mage bonus.

Bercon

-1 spell per level per day seems fairly balanced.

At level 20 you have -5 AC, +2 CON, +10 HP (from d6, +20 if you play with maxhp per lvlup), 100% fire resistance. So basically you'll last few more hits. Of course when Sorcerer is played correctly, you never have to take those hits, you are immune to damage with pfmw, spell trap, time stop etc.. Plus losing one ninth level spell cast per day does hurt.

DarKelP

Pure Sorcerer is better IMO

+1 spell per level per day is much better than:



+2 CON (I don't need it, 15 CON + Manual of Bodily Health, and Sorcerers don't need INT)

100% fire resistence: It is redundant with many spells and objets. My sorcerer easily has 127% (maximum) fire, cold, electrical and magic damage resistance and 75% acid resistance.

-5CA and +20HP: A good Sorcerer never gets hurt.

I would love a good sorcerer kit. What a pity

SpaceInvader

Sad but true...

PugPug

It might be OK if the breath weapon were better and usable more times per day. You'd lose some versatility. Fewer spells per day, but a generic "spell" that partially makes up for it.

Either that or come up with some bonuses that aren't useless when you 1) can allocate your own stats 2) have easy access to protection magic and 3) always know what's coming up and when to prepare for it.

Fardragon

DarKelP said:

I would love a good sorcerer kit. What a pity

Technically, there are no sorcerer kits, since kits are second edition feature, and sorcerers wheren't introduced until 3rd.

theperm222

I think its cool for RP reasons aside... possibility for regen is ok, the breath weapon adds a bit of flavor, more hp and less ac = more survivability if you wanna try and fight just a bit... i would use them as more of a buff/damage dealer mixed with a small amount of melee. Buff your guy send him into a crowd and cast fireball on yourself with 100% fire resistance plus ring of fire resistance = heal plus damage enemies, etc. 5 spells per level is still pretty decent.

Lock

God dammit. I wished I'd known this before investing a bunch of time into a DD. Pissed off.

DarKelP

@Lock

Don't worry. Spells per day for Dragon Disciple are correct.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/270971/#Comment_270971

TJ_Hooker

DarKelP said:

Don't worry. Spells per day for Dragon Disciple are correct.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/270971/#Comment_270971

Yeah but the kit description is wrong (or at least misleading), so you're getting less casts/day than you would have thought when you made the character.