Bug or intended: Shadowdancer's primary stats to dual-class

JuliusBorisov

In the current version, a human Shadowdancer needs 15 STR, 15 DEX, 15 CHA to be able to dual-class. He's a kitted thief and any thief who wants to dual-class needs only 15 in DEX. The rule to have 15 in three abilities is strange. It seems wrong to me. I'd like to hear an official answer.

Jalily

There is already such a rule for Rangers (STR, DEX, WIS), so it's not without precedent.

Nifft

@Jalily - while that is technically correct, a Ranger>Cleric (the only possible dual-class) will actually WANT all three of those abilities high. Wisdom in particular shouldn't really count, as he needs a 17 Wisdom to get in to Cleric College.

No other class which is Dual-able from Thief needs a high Charisma, so the Shadowdancer's extra stat actually hurts, while the Ranger's generally goes unnoticed.

If Rangers could dual-class to Mage, I'm sure everyone would be more understanding about this issue.

EDIT: technical correction for @TJ_Hooker

Madhax

@Jalily

In addition to what @Nifft said, while the idea of a class possessing multiple primary attributes isn't without precedent, I believe that a specific kit possessing primary attributes not held by the parent class is unprecedented. Unless it's a disadvantage of the kit not properly detailed in the kit's description, there's no reason why a Shadowdancer should have dual-classing requirements that an ordinary thief or other thief kit doesn't.

Sorry for the plethora of double-negatives in the above paragraph, but I'm sure you can get the gist of what I'm saying.

TJ_Hooker

Nifft said:

No other Dual-able class needs a high Charisma, so the Shadowdancer's extra stat actually hurts, while the Ranger's generally goes unnoticed.

Druids need high charisma for dualling, which doesn't help them at all.

Fenghoang

From a gameplay mechanic perspective, I think it was implemented to balance the class somewhat. HiPS is a very powerful ability - especially since in BG, you aren't revealed immediately after performing an action from stealth.

From an RP perspective, I'm not exactly sure why you need such a high Cha to be a Shadowdancer...

@Madmax I think you're right about all of the old kits (I'm too lazy to check them all), but most, if not all, of the new BGEE kits changed a lot of their primary stats (or at least the minimum req) in comparison to their vanilla class. Blackguards, Dragon Disciples, Dwarven Defenders, Shadowdancers, and both monk kits (they need an extra 2 con) all have different minimum stat requirements compared to their vanilla class. On the other hand, I think the SD is the only kit that can dual-class out of these.

I think it's a logical step for restricting kits in ways other than alignment, equipment options, etc.

Nifft

TJ_Hooker said:

Druids need high charisma for dualling, which doesn't help them at all.

That's technically correct.

Let me make a Shadowdancer > Druid, and I'll concede that a high Charisma requirement might hurt as little as the Ranger's 15 Wisdom requirement.

JuliusBorisov

The rules cannot be changed. There can be something new added to the game but not to the core rules.

In BG the rule reads this way: You need 15 in your base stat for your CLASS (15 str for fighters, 15 str AND 15 con for rangers, 15 dexterity for rogues, etc.) and 17 in the class you want to jump into (17 WIS for cleric, 17 INT for mage, both 17 WIS and 17 CHA for druids, etc.) to have the option to dual-class.

So, we talk about classes, not kits. One rule is implemented for the class without exceptions for particular kits of this class.

Yes, there're multiple requirements for dual-classing rangers but there're not special requirements for dual-classing ranger kits. They relate to each other as narrow and wide.

A shadowdancer is a kit and therefore must obey the rules for all rogues.

TJ_Hooker

bengoshi said:

The rules cannot be changed. There can be something new added to the game but not to the core rules.

Are you referring to contract limitations here? I believe the rules restricting changes applies more to game content (story, characters, etc.) rather than rules/mechanics.

Fardragon

TJ_Hooker said:

bengoshi said:

The rules cannot be changed. There can be something new added to the game but not to the core rules.

Are you referring to contract limitations here? I believe the rules restricting changes applies more to game content (story, characters, etc.) rather than rules/mechanics.

This is correct. existing story and characters can't be changed from the original BG game. However, anything new that is added can have any rules the EE developers like, there are no contractual obligations to stick to DnD 2nd edition PnP rules.

ALL of the new kits including Blackguard have stat requirements that differ from their base class. (e.g. the new monks require 11 Con instead of 9).

JuliusBorisov

So, if this is intended, there're must be some instructions in the game showing that shadowdancers in contrast to other thieves have not only DEX but also STR and CHA as their primary stats and must have 15 in all these abilities to be able to dual-class.

But nonetheless I would appreciate to get an official point of view on this subject.

Fardragon

bengoshi said:

So, if this is intended, there're must be some instructions in the game showing that shadowdancers in contrast to other thieves have not only DEX but also STR and CHA as their primary stats and must have 15 in all these abilities to be able to dual-class.

But nonetheless I would appreciate to get an official point of view on this subject.

Why? There are no instructions in the game that state that Monks must have 9 wisdom, or Blackguards 14 charisma, or even rangers 13 dexterity.

JuliusBorisov

Fardragon said:

bengoshi said:

So, if this is intended, there're must be some instructions in the game showing that shadowdancers in contrast to other thieves have not only DEX but also STR and CHA as their primary stats and must have 15 in all these abilities to be able to dual-class.

But nonetheless I would appreciate to get an official point of view on this subject.

Why? There are no instructions in the game that state that Monks must have 9 wisdom, or Blackguards 14 charisma, or even rangers 13 dexterity.

Monks, Blackguards (Paladins) can't dual-class, shadowdancers can - that's why.

Fardragon

bengoshi said:

Fardragon said:

bengoshi said:

So, if this is intended, there're must be some instructions in the game showing that shadowdancers in contrast to other thieves have not only DEX but also STR and CHA as their primary stats and must have 15 in all these abilities to be able to dual-class.

But nonetheless I would appreciate to get an official point of view on this subject.

Why? There are no instructions in the game that state that Monks must have 9 wisdom, or Blackguards 14 charisma, or even rangers 13 dexterity.

Monks, Blackguards (Paladins) can't dual-class, shadowdancers can - that's why.

So what? They are only prevented from dual classing by a quirk of the BG engine. Where classes CAN dual class there is no in game mention of what stats are required. It doesn't even state that the primary stat for fighters is strength in the game. It's mentioned in the paper manual.

For example, PnP rules alow a mage to dual class to ranger. If BGEE ever fixes dual classing, they would need to have 17 strength, Dex and Wisdom, and 15 int. I woudn't expect to see that stated in the game, because dual class requirements never are.

Fafnir

Although it would be nice if they were.

Kilivitz

bengoshi said:

Yes, there're multiple requirements for dual-classing rangers but there're not special requirements for dual-classing ranger kits. [...] A shadowdancer is a kit and therefore must obey the rules for all rogues.

IIRC, ToB made Archers (and maybe Stalkers) restricted from dual-classing. The Wild Mage, a Mage kit, is also prevented from that. So as you can see, it's definitely not without precedent.

But I'll second that it'd be nice having some way to check dual-class requirements within the game (or manual).