Fighter/thief Multi or dual?

Jullos

So I'm starting over BG1 EE and I want to go as a fighter/thief, I did pretty much all the other classes but never this one because I trusted Imoen! So my question is should I multi-class from the start ou start as a thief (or a fighter) and then dual later in the game? I really don't know... Anyone has thoughts on that?

Felspawn

i honestly really dislike Dual Classing, i never like the idea of losing your abilitys for a period of time. and while i can understand certain dual class builds (Kensai Mages) i dont think there is enough of an advantage with the Fighter Thief to make it worth while. The Fighter Thief Multiclass is probably one of the best in the game, its powerful throughout the entire game (all the way to TOB) without coming off as cheesy or powergamish. its what i've been playing for the last few days (after trying a variety of different builds, classes and kits and its been the most fun for me.

Jullos

Allright! thank you for the insight! I'll try it.

Madhax

As @Felspawn said, Fighter/Thiefs are unique in their consistent power across the entire saga. The two classes work very well together from start to finish, and being able to have HLAs from either the warrior or thief pools is a major benefit.

I should also mention that, with proper planning and access to skill-enhancing potions and items, a fighter/thief can operate as your party's designated lockpicker, pocketpicker, trapfinder, AND stealth backstabber all at once within the BG1 level limit. This means that you don't need to compensate for the character's inferior leveling speed with a second thief if you build the character perfectly.

Wanderon

Lots of excellent options for the fighter/thief mulit too - half orc with 19 str & con for brutal backstabs and survivability & halfling for best thief skill boosts w bonus to slings are my two favorites but really any race you can make one in will be fine.

TheCoffeeGod

Felspawn said:

i dont think there is enough of an advantage with the Fighter Thief to make it worth while.

Well until they fix the proficiency allocation bug of dualing into a Figher, I'd say starting as a Thief (preferably a Thief kit) and dualing to a Fighter is well worth it.
When you dual to a Fighter, you can put all 4 starting pips into one weapon, and be a GM in that weapong by 3rd level.

Wanderon

TheCoffeeGod said:

Felspawn said:

i dont think there is enough of an advantage with the Fighter Thief to make it worth while.

Well until they fix the proficiency allocation bug of dualing into a Figher, I'd say starting as a Thief (preferably a Thief kit) and dualing to a Fighter is well worth it.
When you dual to a Fighter, you can put all 4 starting pips into one weapon, and be a GM in that weapong by 3rd level.

But that doesn't make you much of a thief - multi F/T is useful on both classes throughout the entire game.

Bigfish

If I'm thinking about this correctly, dual classing will get you a few extra hit points and you can work your way to grandmastery. Multiclassing will get you racial bonuses and none of that annoying dead zone.

atcDave

Bigfish said:

If I'm thinking about this correctly, dual classing will get you a few extra hit points and you can work your way to grandmastery. Multiclassing will get you racial bonuses and none of that annoying dead zone.

That sums it up well. Dual classing is ultimately more powerful, but requires more patience and there will be a few periods when your character is less capable.

Multi-classing is far easier to play. And the power difference is really not that big.

Felspawn

agreed the power difference just isnt there, Kensai/Mage vs Fighter Mage? yes, but F/T? nope.

TheCoffeeGod

Wanderon said:

But that doesn't make you much of a thief - multi F/T is useful on both classes throughout the entire game.

That depends on what you want your Thief skills for and when you dual.
Since I changed my XP cap up by 31k, I usually dual at T7, however, without changing the XP Cap, you can still get T6/F8 which will still give you a 100% in 2 skills or quite high in several if you split your points.

Wanderon

TheCoffeeGod said:

Wanderon said:

But that doesn't make you much of a thief - multi F/T is useful on both classes throughout the entire game.

That depends on what you want your Thief skills for and when you dual.
Since I changed my XP cap up by 31k, I usually dual at T7, however, without changing the XP Cap, you can still get T6/F8 which will still give you a 100% in 2 skills or quite high in several if you slip your points.

I was referring specifically to the dual at F3 you mentioned but even at the higher levels you still have the dead zone during the dual when you have no thief skills and the more thief skills you want the longer you will go without them.

For me I'd rather have both classes active all game and settle for 2 pips per weapon - which also allows me to choose more weapons to be proficient or specialized in to have options for specific situations rather than channel all my points into one or two.

I mean really a half-orc with 19 str (before the tome) that can backstab all game long is going to kill things just as quickly if not quicker than a human T7/F8 with 18 str (before the tome) who goes half the game without the backstab ability.

TheCoffeeGod

Wanderon said:

I was referring specifically to the dual at F3 you mentioned but even at the higher levels you still have the dead zone during the dual when you have no thief skills and the more thief skills you want the longer you will go without them.

I didn't actually specify what level you dual you thief at in that post.
The 3rd level reference was for F3, and by F3 you make GM in a weapon.

Wanderon said:

For me I'd rather have both classes active all game and settle for 2 pips per weapon - which also allows me to choose more weapons to be proficient or specialized in to have options for specific situations rather than channel all my points into one or two.

Personally, I really only use two weapons, so being specialized in a Theif melee weapon (2 Thief weapons if I don't put points in SWS) and GM in a bow suits me just fine.

Wanderon said:

I mean really a half-orc with 19 str (before the tome) that can backstab all game long is going to kill things just as quickly if not quicker than a human T7/F8 with 18 str (before the tome) who goes half the game without the backstab ability.

Here's another difference in our playing styles.
I don't backstab... ever.
And I usually play an F/M/T to boot.

Wanderon

@ TheCoffeeGod

I'm sorry I thought we were talking about the general options of playing a F/T for someone who has never played one so I just assumed they would be interested in things like thief abilities - you know backstabs, open locks , find traps, - all those things a FT can do.

TheCoffeeGod

Wanderon said:

@ TheCoffeeGod

I'm sorry I thought we were talking about the general options of playing a F/T for someone who has never played one so I just assumed they would be interested in things like thief abilities - you know backstabs, open locks , find traps, - all those things a FT can do.

We are.
But he was also considering dualing an F/T, which I was giving the beneifits of starting with a Theif and dualing to a Fighter.
Since I've played around with the bug, I'd say dualing a Swash 5-6 to a Figher is probably the best option when wanting to dual an F/T.
But in the end, it boils down to what I said, it depends on what you want your Thief skills for and ultimately what you want out of your character.

bigdogchris

I suppose if you want to min/max, there is some fighter/thief dual combination that would be optimal. I suppose I'm old fashion in just going with a Fighter-Thief multi-class. I always have one in my party.

Felspawn

TheCoffeeGod said:

Here's another difference in our playing styles.
I don't backstab... ever.
And I usually play an F/M/T to boot.

See that makes all the difference in the world, if i didn't backstab i wouldn't be a F/T either. i'd be a Swashbuckler. who is pretty much a fighter/thief in terms of combat ability except without the slow XP progression (hell they get the super fast single class thief one instead... hello level 10 in BG1). as i said before i dont like dual class but this would actually be one of the times it would make sense, to be a Swashbuckler/Mage.

Fafnir

If I didn't want to backstab I'd make a Ranger.

Felspawn

also a good choice, i guess it depends on if you want to disarm traps/unlock chests or just want stealth

Lord_Tansheron

F/T for BG1. For BG2, especially with mods, I prefer Swashbuckler->Fighter dual.

AHF

atcDave said:

Dual classing is ultimately more powerful, but requires more patience and there will be a few periods when your character is less capable.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultimately getting UAI, assassination, spike trap, etc. upper level abilities seems to outweigh the dual classing advantages to me.

atcDave

AHF said:

atcDave said:

Dual classing is ultimately more powerful, but requires more patience and there will be a few periods when your character is less capable.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultimately getting UAI, assassination, spike trap, etc. upper level abilities seems to outweigh the dual classing advantages to me.

I thought we were talking BG1. But why wouldn't you get the HLAs? Dual class characters do still get them.

AHF

atcDave said:

AHF said:

atcDave said:

Dual classing is ultimately more powerful, but requires more patience and there will be a few periods when your character is less capable.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultimately getting UAI, assassination, spike trap, etc. upper level abilities seems to outweigh the dual classing advantages to me.

I thought we were talking BG1. But why wouldn't you get the HLAs? Dual class characters do still get them.

@atcDave -

Dual class characters only get the HLA from their active class. A thief dualed to fighter doesn't get thief HLA (think about Imoen not getting thief HLA or Anomen not getting fighter HLA).

For BG1 only, I can see the point but think the power difference is sufficiently negligible not to be worth the down time but that is just a matter of preference so reasonable minds can differ.

Wanderon

atcDave said:

AHF said:

atcDave said:

Dual classing is ultimately more powerful, but requires more patience and there will be a few periods when your character is less capable.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultimately getting UAI, assassination, spike trap, etc. upper level abilities seems to outweigh the dual classing advantages to me.

I thought we were talking BG1. But why wouldn't you get the HLAs? Dual class characters do still get them.

Doesn't it depend on what level you have in each class as to whether you get both HLAs?

AHF

Wanderon said:

atcDave said:

AHF said:

atcDave said:

Dual classing is ultimately more powerful, but requires more patience and there will be a few periods when your character is less capable.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultimately getting UAI, assassination, spike trap, etc. upper level abilities seems to outweigh the dual classing advantages to me.

I thought we were talking BG1. But why wouldn't you get the HLAs? Dual class characters do still get them.

Doesn't it depend on what level you have in each class as to whether you get both HLAs?

You have to pass 3M XP in each class to get HLA. So if you wait to dual until you have 3M XP as a thief you will be level 24 when you get your first HLA. You then will need 4.25M before you can use those thief abilities (i.e., when you hit level 25 as a fighter). Then you will cap out at 8M experience with 1 thief HLA and 8 fighter HLA.

A multi F/T would get 18 HLA - twice the number.

Lord_Tansheron

If you're dual-class, you get HLAs for the class you level up with; if you wait until 3m XP to dual then yes, you will get to pick HLAs for that class. But when you then reach 3m with your new class, you get to pick HLAs for THAT CLASS ONLY. You can never again pick HLAs of your first class, even if you went over 3m XP with it.

Fenghoang

AHF said:

atcDave said:

AHF said:

atcDave said:

Dual classing is ultimately more powerful, but requires more patience and there will be a few periods when your character is less capable.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultimately getting UAI, assassination, spike trap, etc. upper level abilities seems to outweigh the dual classing advantages to me.

I thought we were talking BG1. But why wouldn't you get the HLAs? Dual class characters do still get them.

@atcDave -

Dual class characters only get the HLA from their active class. A thief dualed to fighter doesn't get thief HLA (think about Imoen not getting thief HLA or Anomen not getting fighter HLA).

For BG1 only, I can see the point but think the power difference is sufficiently negligible not to be worth the down time but that is just a matter of preference so reasonable minds can differ.

Most people dual from fighter (prob Kensai) -> thief for the BS multiplier, GM, and more thief skill pts though. All of the HLAs you listed be would be available. You would lose GWW and Hardiness, but honestly, I would rather pick more uses of Time Stop Trap anyway.

atcDave

Wanderon said:

atcDave said:

AHF said:

atcDave said:

Dual classing is ultimately more powerful, but requires more patience and there will be a few periods when your character is less capable.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultimately getting UAI, assassination, spike trap, etc. upper level abilities seems to outweigh the dual classing advantages to me.

I thought we were talking BG1. But why wouldn't you get the HLAs? Dual class characters do still get them.

Doesn't it depend on what level you have in each class as to whether you get both HLAs?

Both or either. You can build a game winning character either way. Makes no difference to me.

I would not ever recommend worrying about trying to get both sets of HLAs! Its truly not worth it.

Oxford_Guy

Multiclass, but I'm biased against dual-classing, I just find it tedious

Corvino

I'd probably avoid Half-Orc as a fighter/thief multi as they miss out on a lot of bonus skill points. This makes quite a difference in BG1 and while the 19 Str is nice, it's not too hard to roll 18/00 str when you only need 84 points to max physical attributes and avoid penalties in the rest.

Gnomes, Elves, Halflings, Dwarves and even Half-elves have things to recommend them too. As people have said though they're a decent but rarely overpowered class that remains consistent and useful throughout the sga.

Felspawn

i personally roll with a Half - elf, they arent the power gamer's choice (elves or halflings) but they mesh better with my personal RP and my prefered love interest in BG2 doesnt like elves.