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Fighter/thief Multi or dual?

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  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Felspawn said:

    i personally roll with a Half - elf, they arent the power gamer's choice (elves or halflings) but they mesh better with my personal RP and my prefered love interest in BG2 doesnt like elves.

    Yes I admit that's something in half-elves favour! :-)

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    Fenghoang said:

    AHF said:

    atcDave said:

    AHF said:

    atcDave said:

    Dual classing is ultimately more powerful, but requires more patience and there will be a few periods when your character is less capable.

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultimately getting UAI, assassination, spike trap, etc. upper level abilities seems to outweigh the dual classing advantages to me.
    I thought we were talking BG1. But why wouldn't you get the HLAs? Dual class characters do still get them.
    @atcDave -

    Dual class characters only get the HLA from their active class. A thief dualed to fighter doesn't get thief HLA (think about Imoen not getting thief HLA or Anomen not getting fighter HLA).

    For BG1 only, I can see the point but think the power difference is sufficiently negligible not to be worth the down time but that is just a matter of preference so reasonable minds can differ.
    Most people dual from fighter (prob Kensai) -> thief for the BS multiplier, GM, and more thief skill pts though. All of the HLAs you listed be would be available. You would lose GWW and Hardiness, but honestly, I would rather pick more uses of Time Stop Trap anyway.

    I agree that is probably the better way to go but you still have the downtime and with the multi F/T you get both the thief abilities and the critical strikes, GWW, etc.

    Why choose just one?

    WanderonOxford_Guy
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    For my money, advancement in multi for this combination is so quick that why not? At the end of the day, you get more abilities and only lose out marginally on level.

    But the question you really gotta ask yourself is "Did he fire six shots or only five?" No, wait. that is something else... Sorry.

    What you really want to ask yourself is "Do you want to play human or not?" Therein lies your answer. Plus, are you going to rely upon another thief somewhere down the line for traps etc.... I personally really enjoyed my Half-Orc Fighter/Thief run. 19 STR and CON really helped that character a lot.

    LemernisMadhaxFafnirrickcr
  • FenghoangFenghoang Member Posts: 160
    edited February 2013
    AHF said:


    I agree that is probably the better way to go but you still have the downtime and with the multi F/T you get both the thief abilities and the critical strikes, GWW, etc.

    Why choose just one?

    Well, more uses of HLA traps, if you prefer those. GWW won't get much use if you're hitting/running a lot with backstabs. They are useful when you run into a BS-immune enemy though.

    A Kensai (9) -> Thief would do about 30 more damage on each backstab as well. 5x (3[GM] + 3[Kensai])

    Also, the downtime with a lvl 9 fighter is marginal in the context of BG2, can attain the x5 BS multiplier earlier, has better THAC0 throughout SoA, more damage per swing, more HP, etc.

    But you're right, for a BG1 run or even a full trilogy run, I would probably stick with the multi-class if you want to play as a thief for the BG1 portion or if you're not interested in backstabs. Less fuss, usable from the start, more versatile in ToB, can be another race, etc.

    EDIT: Also, Lv3 Fighter -> Thief, in BG1, is really powerful because of GM and marginal downtime. Being able to dump 4 pips right on the DC is kind of exploity though... =P

    They'll suck outside of BG1 though.

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    Fenghoang said:

    AHF said:


    I agree that is probably the better way to go but you still have the downtime and with the multi F/T you get both the thief abilities and the critical strikes, GWW, etc.

    Why choose just one?

    GWW won't get much use if you're hitting/running a lot with backstabs. They are useful when you run into a BS-immune enemy though.
    Critical strikes work very well with backstabs - automatic hit at double damage. It isn't assassination but can certainly be used more often.

    Traps are the single most powerful thing in the game so it really depends on how much you want to go that route as to whether anything else is very much necessary.

  • FenghoangFenghoang Member Posts: 160
    edited February 2013
    AHF said:

    Fenghoang said:

    AHF said:


    I agree that is probably the better way to go but you still have the downtime and with the multi F/T you get both the thief abilities and the critical strikes, GWW, etc.

    Why choose just one?

    GWW won't get much use if you're hitting/running a lot with backstabs. They are useful when you run into a BS-immune enemy though.
    Critical strikes work very well with backstabs - automatic hit at double damage. It isn't assassination but can certainly be used more often.

    Traps are the single most powerful thing in the game so it really depends on how much you want to go that route as to whether anything else is very much necessary.
    No doubt CS+BS is powerful, but they also can be a PITA to pull off. You either have to activate it before you stealth, run into position, and strike (6 second window) or activate it from stealth and hit before you become fully revealed. It makes me sad when I fail completing the above.

    Besides... more timestop with a F/T is funner anyway! XD

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    Fenghoang said:


    Besides... more timestop with a F/T is funner anyway! XD

    Fair enough, but timestop works well with those GWW and critical strikes too and there is no reason you can't do both!

  • RnRClownRnRClown Member Posts: 182
    I would opt for the multi-class.

    Jullos
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176
    It all depends on how you play. My game, for example, is loaded with mods to increase difficulty. Part of that includes most relevant enemies in BG2/ToB being immune to backstab and/or traps. That means gaining levels as a thief becomes fairly useless at some point, which is why I prefer to dual a thief into a fighter.

    If your game has less of these problems, you may very well want to do the opposite, i.e. dual a fighter (=Kensai) into a thief. Backstabs and traps more than make up for the loss of Critical Strike, and Greater Whirlwind is largely redundant anyway if you are using Improved Haste.

    Fighter/Thief multiclass is another attractive option. It gets stronger with smaller parties, but can be quite good regardless. Imo it is the best multiclass combination of all, since it's a combination of two classes that cap on their useful level progression fairly quickly. The only thing you lose out on is kit bonuses, which is sad given that both Fighter and Thief have the most powerful kits.

    The choice, in the end, depends on many factors, not the least of which is personal preference. Try to have fun with what you roll, above all else!

  • TheCoffeeGodTheCoffeeGod Member Posts: 618
    Fenghoang said:


    EDIT: Also, Lv3 Fighter -> Thief, in BG1, is really powerful because of GM and marginal downtime. Being able to dump 4 pips right on the DC is kind of exploity though... =P

    It's very exploity and a reported bug ( here ).
    Though it's not dualing from a Fighter, it's dualing INTO a Fighter that allows the 4 pip proficiency allocation into one weapon at lvl 1.
    Which is why I said, start with a Lvl 5-6 Thief (kits are best) -> Fighter.


  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    Fenghoang said:


    EDIT: Also, Lv3 Fighter -> Thief, in BG1, is really powerful because of GM and marginal downtime. Being able to dump 4 pips right on the DC is kind of exploity though... =P

    It's very exploity and a reported bug ( here ).
    Agreed!

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited February 2013
    To me, a large stretch of downtime doesn't balance out the somewhat (not tremendously) more powerful character you get late in the game when you dual-class a character at say level 7 or 13.* Therefore, for the whole saga I would go with a multi-class Fighter/Thief. Half-orc is a great choice here.

    For just a BG:EE game (versus playing the whole saga) I have enjoyed dualing at Fighter 3 (using any kit flavor). You get the Fighter skills back almost immediately. You can start with a Berserker or Kensai kit and gain some additional advantages. And I would do it this way versus Thief 2/Fighter in order to get the x3 backstab multiplier at Thief 5.

    But a multi-class is also great. One isn't really more significantly powerful than the other. (In BG:EE.)

    In terms of enjoyment, you level a little slower as a multi. And with a dual-class you have a bit of downtime to endure (though in the examples here not much). So for my money it basically balances out (when dual-classing at level 3, that is).




    * Even level 6 is way too long for me. It does depend somewhat on the classes involved, because some level fast. But I'll rarely consider dualing past level 4 for a BG:EE game. In my current game I dualed Safana to Mage at Thief 5, and Branwen to Thief at Cleric 5, and have about half then game to enjoy them with both class skills. But that is about the limit for me.)

    Post edited by Lemernis on
    Oxford_GuyRnRClown
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176
    Lemernis said:

    To me, a large stretch of downtime doesn't balance out the somewhat (not tremendously) more powerful character you get late in the game when you dual-class a character at say level 7 or 13.

    You may be underestimating just how much better dual-class characters are in some cases. A fighter/mage multi isn't even remotely close in power to a kensai->mage dual, for example. And while it may be annoying to have to deal with "downtime", it will be at a stage of the game where most fights are fairly easy even with a handicap. The truly difficult fights all happen at a point where you will have regained your previous class, even if you dual at 13 (which you always should, if dualing from a fighter).

    Of course, that is from a BALANCE perspective; ENJOYMENT is something else entirely. Some people plain don't like the feeling of being gimped for an extended period of time, or the powergaming solutions to quick leveling. That's perfectly fine, and a choice you make for yourself. But objectively speaking, the increased power of dual-classing is very, very worth the time it takes to regain the levels.

    Note that this is mostly something for BG2; in BG1, things are a bit different due to the much lower level caps.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited February 2013
    @Lord_Tansheron I wouldn't take issue with a dual-class Kensai/Mage being significantly more powerful than a multi Fighter/Mage. But you get so powerful with either one that, at least for me, it almost doesn't matter. And then the downtime is what tips the scale for me.

    But that said, that's just my own personal taste. I can see how others might not mind the downtime for a dual-classed character (dualing at level 7-13) in exchange for how powerful the character eventually becomes. Not for me, is all.

    Fafnir
  • OzzyBotkinsOzzyBotkins Member Posts: 396
    I never have played a F/T but I am going to on my next play through
    With all the HLA you can choose in BG2 i do not see a Duel class F/T being worth it
    only choice left is what race and style of F/T you want to play
    Take Gnomes out of lineup
    they have no added value for making a Fighter/thief
    .
    1/2 orcs will give you the best physical stats (STR,DEX,CON)
    but has no addtional thief skill bonus and no saving throw bonus
    .
    Dwarves will give you the CON bonus but you lose on DEX
    they also get bonus on Pick lock and disarm traps
    and they get excellent saving throwws
    '
    ELves get the bonus to DEX but lose on CON
    they get some thief skill bonus ( not sure which I.m on my work computer )
    they also set THAC0 bonus with bows and longsword
    .
    Halflings get bonus to DEX like elves but lose on STR
    get the most bonus thief skill points
    have bonus to hit with throwing weapons
    and like dwarves get excellent saving throws
    .
    So basically if you want your CHARNAME to be more fighter then thief
    go 1/2 orc
    or if you want your CHARNAME to be more thief then fighter go halfling
    . if you want it somewhere in between go dwarf or efl
    good luck and keep us posted on how things are going

  • KirkorKirkor Member Posts: 700
    Well, I never quite understood the dualclass thing.
    Anyway, if you want to dualclass, you have to play as a human, which (for me at least) is a big minus.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    For anyone planning to dual-class I would recommend testing the build first with the CLUA Console. It can get a bit confusing about how best to allocate weapons proficiencies.

  • KamehouseKamehouse Member Posts: 66
    Kirkor said:

    Well, I never quite understood the dualclass thing.
    Anyway, if you want to dualclass, you have to play as a human, which (for me at least) is a big minus.

    Not in any case. You can dual a LVL13 fighter to become a level 28 mage, while a multiclass fighter/mage can just get LVL20. So your XP are not shared. And you can select a kit for your first class.
    But as you don't understand the dualclass thing... Well, then you'd be right. If you'd understood, you'd know that the "advantages" of other races are nothing against a good dualed human.

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376

    Lemernis said:

    To me, a large stretch of downtime doesn't balance out the somewhat (not tremendously) more powerful character you get late in the game when you dual-class a character at say level 7 or 13.

    You may be underestimating just how much better dual-class characters are in some cases. A fighter/mage multi isn't even remotely close in power to a kensai->mage dual, for example. And while it may be annoying to have to deal with "downtime", it will be at a stage of the game where most fights are fairly easy even with a handicap. The truly difficult fights all happen at a point where you will have regained your previous class, even if you dual at 13 (which you always should, if dualing from a fighter).
    I agree with this but it is because Mages are so much better as single class characters than as multi-class characters. The levels really, really matter for their power.

    With fighters and thieves, that same dynamic is not present, IMO. With casters, I see a big difference between dual classed casters and multi-classed but with fighter/thieves I don't see much difference. (I also think the F/T multiclass ends up being more powerful so that would weigh in favor of F/T multiclass just like power weighs in favor of the mage dual class).

    Fenghoang
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176
    AHF said:

    I agree with this but it is because Mages are so much better as single class characters than as multi-class characters. The levels really, really matter for their power.

    With fighters and thieves, that same dynamic is not present, IMO. With casters, I see a big difference between dual classed casters and multi-classed but with fighter/thieves I don't see much difference. (I also think the F/T multiclass ends up being more powerful so that would weigh in favor of F/T multiclass just like power weighs in favor of the mage dual class).

    I agree that F/T is the best multi-class, since you don't need high levels with either. Both fighters and thieves cap relatively early in their useful level progression. You also gain access to both classes' HLAs, which are some of the best in the game.

    What you lose out on as multi however is kit bonuses; both thieves and fighters have perhaps the strongest kits in the game. The Kensai/Swashbuckler damage bonuses for example can potentially offset the loss of one class' HLAs. You also gain more HP if you dual Thief->Fighter compared to F/T multi.

    What you choose ultimately depends on several factors (like pretty much anything else in this game). With heavy mods and high difficulty, I find that raw bonuses and more HP outweigh the usefulness of thief HLAs and therefore I choose Swashbuckler->Fighter dual. On lower difficulties and with less extensive modding, that can easily change.

    Find out what fits you and your game best!

    JullosFenghoangRnRClown
  • KirkorKirkor Member Posts: 700
    Kamehouse said:

    Kirkor said:

    Well, I never quite understood the dualclass thing.
    Anyway, if you want to dualclass, you have to play as a human, which (for me at least) is a big minus.

    Not in any case. You can dual a LVL13 fighter to become a level 28 mage, while a multiclass fighter/mage can just get LVL20. So your XP are not shared. And you can select a kit for your first class.
    But as you don't understand the dualclass thing... Well, then you'd be right. If you'd understood, you'd know that the "advantages" of other races are nothing against a good dualed human.
    I rather meant from the roleplaying point of view.
    If you take mechanic - yes, dualclass is probably much better.

  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    edited February 2013
    @Lord_Tansheron

    Actually, according to a poll several months back, the opinion is pretty evenly split between F/M multis and kensai->mage duals. I think F/M was even slightly ahead, let me see if I can find the thread...

    Found it:
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/12042/fightermage-multi-class-vs-kensaimage-dual-class/p1

    Looks like the Kensage actually edged out a win, but it's a close one. Lots of good arguments on either side.

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    edited February 2013

    You also gain more HP if you dual Thief->Fighter compared to F/T multi.

    What you choose ultimately depends on several factors (like pretty much anything else in this game). With heavy mods and high difficulty, I find that raw bonuses and more HP outweigh the usefulness of thief HLAs and therefore I choose Swashbuckler->Fighter dual. On lower difficulties and with less extensive modding, that can easily change.

    Find out what fits you and your game best!

    I am not sure I follow the HP unless you are talking about at very high level.

    Assuming max HP, are you looking at this at 1M XP:

    If you dual at level 5, you get 2 bonus points to AC and +1 to hit/dmg in exchange for foregoing UAI, traps, etc. and have 102 max HP. (Net tradeoff: -12 HP, +2 AC, +1 attack for only 32K of downtime, 1 fewer potential HLA compared to single class fighter, and loss of all thief HLA and additional thieving skills).

    As a F/T, you have 114 HP at level 10/12. (No downtime; all HLA and thieving skills; +12 to +31 HP).

    If you dual at level 10, you get 3 bonus points to AC and +2 to hit/dmg in exchange for losing the thief HLA and then have 83 HP. (-31 HP, +3 AC, +2 attack for 750K of downtime, 1 fewer potential HLA, and loss of all thief HLA and additional thieving skills).


    At just under 3M experience:

    F/T = 121 HP

    Level 5 dual class = 126 HP

    Level 10 dual class = 107 HP

    That seems to translate into: F/T Multi better HP for BG1 and most of SOA; Swash/Fighter Dual better HP for late SOA and TOB.

  • OzzyBotkinsOzzyBotkins Member Posts: 396
    If I was to duel class I would need a role playing reason to make the change
    Like Starting out as a Fighter, thief or cleric in BG1
    maybe when your BFF ( Bhaal Friend Forever ) Imoen decides to switch to mage
    maybe she Talked your CHARNAME
    into studing magic also
    I always have to have a Role Play feel to any character I play
    my present CHARNAME is a male 1/2 elf Druid that was inspired by Gorion's stories about his druid friends
    and wanted to be part of the magic of nature

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176
    AHF said:

    That seems to translate into: F/T Multi better HP for BG1 and most of SOA; Swash/Fighter Dual better HP for late SOA and TOB.

    That is exactly what I am talking about, yes :) You only really need the extra HP for the tough fights towards the end of the game anyway.

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376

    AHF said:

    That seems to translate into: F/T Multi better HP for BG1 and most of SOA; Swash/Fighter Dual better HP for late SOA and TOB.

    That is exactly what I am talking about, yes :) You only really need the extra HP for the tough fights towards the end of the game anyway.
    By that point, the F/T is probably using stoneskin scrolls to give superior buffing to the incremental HPs but I get what you are saying.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176
    edited February 2013
    AHF said:

    By that point, the F/T is probably using stoneskin scrolls to give superior buffing to the incremental HPs but I get what you are saying.

    Being able to use scrolls is definitely one of the big upsides of F/T. For that reason I'm currently experimenting with a Swashbuckler 25->Fighter dual-class, but I'm not sure it's needed. Most of the damage my non-tanks take is magical, and impractical to defend against with scrolls.

    Keep in mind though that all these deliberations and fine distinctions are unlikely to matter for most people. I play with a specific set of mods/settings that demand specific things. For me, even small amounts of HP can make a difference, while for other people it won't even be a noticeable change.

    It's tough discussing things for a game that really isn't the same for anyone, especially once you get down to the nitty-gritty parts of theorycrafting.

    TL;DR: Your mileage may wary. F/T multi is very viable, as is T->F dual, or F->T dual. Try and find your best fit according to the game YOU play and the way YOU play it.

    LemernisRnRClown
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376


    TL;DR: Your mileage may wary. F/T multi is very viable, as is T->F dual, or F->T dual. Try and find your best fit according to the game YOU play and the way YOU play it.

    Agreed!

    LemernisRnRClownJullos
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