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WIP - BGEE ReKit

NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
edited March 2013 in General Modding
I'm going to use this thread to keep track of my thoughts on the mod that I'm planning to write.

My overall goal: spellcasters should feel different to play.
My secondary goal: all kits are awesome and interesting to play, including the "True Class" kit.

Thoughts on Mood, Balance and Implementation:

For this thread, the definition of "balanced" shall be "is interesting and different when compared to other classes". If class or kit X can do everything that class or kit Y can do PLUS MORE, then they are not balanced correctly: no class or kit should be strictly better than another one, in the mathematical sense of strictly. This is a very basic definition, but I think it's the most useful for my design goals. In specific, I'm for removing cheese when doing so is convenient, but removing cheese is not one of my balance goals.

Mood: I like the Hard Times mod. I like the idea that weapons are breaking, supplies are running low, people are getting desperate, and that you can't rely on your favorite tools forever. In the worst case, when your sword breaks you might have to go club some hobgoblin to death and take his sword. In my humble opinion, that's cool. Supporting that kind of mood is a tertiary goal.

Implementation: The common, cheap and ugly way to "make something unique" seems to be to give it a bunch of Innate spells. This is how a lot of the NPCs are made "unique" in BG1. In my humble opinion, and for my mod, this is not acceptable: if Tiax is a special kind of cleric, that ought to be reflected in his core abilities (proficiencies, spell list, Turn Undead effect, resistances, etc.). Some things don't fit anywhere else, like Rage or Called Shot, and for those things the Innate button is acceptable -- but it's a last resort.


Thoughts on Proficiencies:

There are two issues that I see with respect to proficiencies:

1/ In a PnP game, it's easy for the GM to keep the party as supplied as they need to be, or to scale encounters according to the party's equipment level. It's also easy to vary the loot dropped by opponents to suit the party's needs. This means that, in practice, the non-proficiency penalty isn't as big a penalty as it can be in a CRPG like BGEE.

In contrast, from what I've been reading, people playing BGEE seem to heavily prioritize getting magic weapons specifically to avoid the hassle of broken weapons. Since being weaponless is such a hefty penalty -- and finding appropriate equipment for your one chosen weapon type can be inconvenient -- people choose proficiencies based on meta-game considerations, like what magic gear can they get easily.

2/ I've heard people complain about dual-classing and proficiency abuse, like a Fighter->Mage getting the last dot or two of his Grand Mastery using his Mage proficiency dots.


It might be possible to fix both of those in a single mod, by doing the following:
- Every class starts out Proficient in every weapon type they can use.
- Warrior classes get additional Proficiency dots as they level up.
- Non-warrior classes never get any extra Proficiency dots, ever.

This is both a convenience mod -- in that you don't have to know about the special Scimitars if you're playing a Druid, you can just find one and be happy you can use it as well as the Staff you'd been carrying -- and a cheese fix for dual-class warriors.

As a side issue, it might make NPCs a bit more convenient, since they won't have assigned their only proficiency dots into the wrong thing at birth.


Proficiency Solution (my best answer so far)
- Clerics, Druids, and Mages (including Sorcerers) have a fixed proficiency list and never gain extra dots.
- Warriors (Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers) start with one dot in many weapons, and do gain dots as they level.
- Rogues (Thieves and Bards) start with one dot in a few weapons, and do gain dots as they level.

Specifically, Warriors start with one dot in all weapons EXCEPT Halberd, Katana, Longbow, Scim/Wak/Nin and 2-Handed Sword.

Barbarians get the Warrior base, plus one dot in Two-Handed Weapon Style.

Rangers get the Warrior base, plus two dots in Two Weapon Style.

Archers get the Warrior base, plus one free dot in Longbow.


On the other hand, the Rogue base is one dot in Club, Crossbow, Dagger, Dart, Shortbow, Short Sword, Sling and Staff.

From there, Thieves can put one dot in each of 3 weapons (Katana, Long Sword, Scim/Wak/Nin), two dots Single Weapon Style, and three dots in Two Weapon Style.

Swashbucklers can do all the stuff Thieves can do, plus put two dots in all Thief weapons.

Bards get the Rogue base, but they can put one dot in any weapon when they advance, and they can put one dot in any weapon style.

Skalds get the Bard base, plus one dot in Two-Handed Weapon Style.

Blades get the Bard base, plus they can put the maximum dots in any weapon style.

Remaining Problems
This scheme does mean that a Fighter > Rogue can still gain GM with a Fighter weapon using Thief proficiency dots, but the same trick can't be done with Fighter dualing into anything else, so it's at least better than before, even if it's not perfect.


Thoughts on Spell Lists:

Most classes have a short list of powerful class-defining spells. Since I intend to expand each kit's spell list with powerful spells, I ought to remove some common powerful spells from those kits. For example, in order to give the Cleric of Lathander some cool fire-themed spells at levels 1 and 3, I intend to remove Animate Dead and Doom from his arsenal.

I made a topic to discuss these class-defining spells over here:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16606/divine-casters-and-class-defining-spells
Please add your input!


Thoughts on Kits and True Class differences:

In my opinion, too many kits give powerful things without taking anything of value away. When possible, I'd like to fix that, either by giving the base class something nice (which the kit will lack), or by making the thing restricted more valuable. For example, a Druid who sacrifices shape-shifting is losing something which is mostly useless.

When possible, I'd like to make kit restrictions matter. This means:
- Making Paladin and Ranger spellcasting useful (so the Inquisitor loses something)
- Making Paladins interesting archers (so the Cavalier loses something)
- Making Druid shape-shifting useful

Clerics don't have much other than their proficiencies and spell list, so that's where I'll be making tweaks to enable Cleric kits to be different rather than just-plain-better.

For example, a Cleric of Tempus might start out Specialized in War Hammers. That's one of her perks. Another perk might be that, at 13th level, she gains an extra +1/2 attack per round. Perhaps in trade she loses access to "cowardly" spells like Sanctuary and Command?


Planned Kits and their Lore:

Okay, this is the meat of the post. Thanks for reading so far!

Cleric / True Class
- Access to all core Cleric spells (e.g. Holy Smite and Animate Dead)
- Access to a small number of new kit-specific spells, by performing quests for various temples. For example, completing the Bassilius quest for the Temple of Lathander will gift your unkitted Cleric access to one spell from the Lathander kit's special spell list.

Cleric / Priest of Lathander
The Morninglord seems to be big on hope, rebirth, sunlight and fire. Spells which de-buff opponents, including perennial favorites like Doom and Chant, might be dropped from his spell list. He dislikes the undead, so Animate Dead is out for sure, and his version of Holy Smite ought to harm the undead.
- Fire Resistance starting at 2nd level, ending up around 50% at level 20.
- Access to fire spells: add fire damage to my attacks; briefly add fire damage to the whole party's attacks; ranged attack spell which isn't quite as good as what a Wizard could do.

Cleric / Priest of Helm
It seems like Helm is the god of Inquisitors, so making the Helm spell list slanted to anti-caster seems to fit.
- Bonus to saves vs. spells starting at level 2, ending up around +5 at level 20.
- Access to some of the weaker anti-mage spells like Spell Thrust and Secret Word. I'd like some help in figuring out which spells are too good for Helm priests (like it seems Breach would be too strong, but what about Warding Whip?).

Cleric / Priest of Talos
Talos is the Storm Lord, so all kinds of storm and electricity spells can end up in his purview. Conversely, some group buffs like Defensive Harmony and Protection from Evil seem out of place for his followers.
- Electrical Resistance starting at 2nd level, ending up around 80% at level 20. Electrical damage is rarer than Fire, so resistance is weaker overall, so I think granting higher resistance is not that big a deal.
- Access to some wind, storm, and electrical spells: wind which briefly protects from archery; add electrical damage to the whole party's attacks; Call Lightning and Ice Storm.

Cleric / Priest of Shar (NPC only?)
Darkness is her cloak; silence is her sword.
- Immunity to Blindness (btw, this is why Viconia can walk around in sunlight).
- Gains the spells Blindness, Improved Invisibility and Power Word: Blind (as a 7th level spell).

Cleric / Priest of Tempus (NPC only?)
Swift, forthright, and blunt, just like his clergy's favored weapons.
- Starts with two pips (Specialization) in War Hammers and Maces.
- Gains +1/2 attack per round at 13th level.
- No bonus spells. Tempus would rather that his followers smite their foes in melee.

Druid / True Class
- Immunity to Entangle.
- Earlier immunity to Poison (so it matters in BG1).
- Better shape-changing, starting at 4th level: a wolf with high defenses, or a bear with strong attacks.
- A few more attack spells: specifically, some earlier fire attack spells.
- Weapon spells create a weapon in which all Druids are proficient.
- Gain access to Animal Companion as a 2nd level spell, which summons a wolf for 8 hours. This is the Druidic equivalent of Animate Dead, but it only works outdoors. Like Animate Dead, the wolf summoned will improve with your caster level.

Druid / Avenger
- No attribute penalties.
- Lose access to heavy armor (no studded leather, hide, or ankheg).
- Lose shape-changing, entangle immunity, and poison immunity.
- Gain access to a few more spells in addition to their current spells, and gain access to some group buff spells.

Druid / Cloakwood Envenomer
The Cloakwood Envenomers are a nearly extinct sect. They've been largely replaced by Shadow Druids within the Cloakwood Forest itself. Perhaps you will be the one to revive this dying sect.
Cloakwood Envenomers use methods based on the poisonous predators who call Cloakwood home. You have always been fascinated by this toxic ecology which lies disturbingly close to Candlekeep. By studying the physiology and magical powers of the ettercap, spider, and wyvern, you have made some measure of their power your own.
This kit steals ideas from the "Hivemaster" kit in the Kitpack mod.

- Replaces the Shapeshifter kit.
- Can't wear any armor.
- Shape-change at-will to a Huge Spider starting at level 1. Spider form improves with level.
- Lose immunity to Entangle; gain immunity to Web.
- Gain immunity to poison early (level 2).
- Gain access to special spells: Web, Spider Spawn, add minor poison effect to attacks of allies, plus other poison and spider-themed spells.
- Lose access to normal animal summoning spells.

Druid / Shadow Druid
"We will strike at Nature's enemies using any method we must! We will take back the land by any means necessary!" These militant Druids have turned to magical methods which other Druids find objectionable, including use of Necromancy. The Shadow Druids maintain that their transgressions are for the greater balance. Most recently, the Shadow Druids have usurped the Cloakwood Druids from their native forest, and their power is growing.
- Replaces the Totemic Druid kit.
- Lose access to heavy armor (no studded leather, hide, or ankheg).
- Gain access to some Ice spells, some Necromancy spells and some minor anti-magic: animate dead (!!!), create undead, summon shadows, add ice damage to ally's attacks, minor spell turning.
- Shape-change into an undead animal, with undead immunities (poison, energy drain, 50% cold resistance), but with vulnerability to fire. HLA might include a Black Dog option, turning you into an energy-draining hound of ill omen.
- Lose access to normal animal summoning spells.

Ranger / True Class
Rangers are the protectors of the wilderness, but in BGEE, they play too much like nerfed Fighters.
- Gain immunity to Entangle.
- Resist Nature's Lure: gain +4 to saves vs. nymph and siren charm.
- Earlier spellcasting: gain 1st level spells starting at 4th level.
- Gain Animal Companion spell as a 1st level spell (so they can cast it at 4th level).
- Free two pips in Two Weapon Fighting.
- Can Specialize (two pips) in any weapon.

Ranger / Archer
Archers are masters of the bow. They are feared by evil as deadly woodland snipers.
- Lose immunity to Entangle.
- Can only wear Leather armor, can't use shields.
- d8 HD
- No free pips in Two Weapon Fighting; can't put pips in any fighting style at all.
- Can gain Grand Mastery in Longbows, Shortbows, and Crossbows.
- Can gain Specialization in other missile weapons (including Dagger but not Axe).
- May only have Proficiency in other weapons.

Ranger / Stalker
Stalkers are equally at home in urban environments. Their skills blend the brutal ambush tactics of the Thief with the martial prowess of the Ranger. Their combined studies of both human and natural predators have given them access to some potent insights into poison, and access to spells beyond what most other Rangers know.
- Lose immunity to Entangle.
- Can wear leather, studded leather and hide (no heavy armors, and no ankeg armor).
- No free pips in Two Weapon Fighting, but you can put pips in any fighting style.
- Backstab like current Stalker: 2x at levels 1-8, then 3x, topping out at 4x.
- Better spell list, including some Mage spells like Haste, Nondetection, and Minor Spell Deflection.
- Gain access to a couple of the Cloakwood Envenomer's low-level poison spells.

Ranger / Storm Warden
These Rangers focus on harnessing elemental energy, and fighting Nature's enemies in the most extreme environments. Their ability to channel fire and frost enable them to battle the wicked efreeti who haunt the dunes of Calimshan or hunt cruel frost giants along the Great Glacier. In some cultures, they are called Elemental Dervishes. They are often found opposing the forces of Talos, Auril, and Tiamat.
- Lose immunity to Entangle and Resist Nature's Lure.
- Can wear leather, studded leather and hide (no heavy armors, and no ankheg armor).
- No free pips in Two Weapon Fighting, but you can put pips in any fighting style.
- Can gain Mastery (three pips) in Long Swords, Short Swords, and Scimitars.
- Gain 20% fire and cold resistance at 1st level, increasing to 30% at level 10, and to 50% at level 15.
- Gain access to spells which add elemental damage to your own attacks. Druids and Clerics get some of these, too, but they're more powerful when granted to a class with better THAC0, proficiencies, and attack progression.

Ranger / Beast Master

- Can only wear Leather armor, can't use shields.
- No free pips in Two Weapon Fighting, but you can put pips in any fighting style.
- Shape-change at-will to a Wolf starting at level 1. The Wolf form has good defenses, and this form improves with level.
- Gain spells which allow you to change into different forms: a nimble Panther with a Backstab effect, or a lumbering Bear with strong attacks but poor defenses.
- Gain animal summoning spells.


Usability Grouping:

Clerics:
- All Clerics use a single code; items will have alignment restrictions, of course.

Druids:
- One code for base class.
- One code for Avengers & Shadow Druids.
- One code for Cloakwood Envenomers (and any future skyclad Druids).

Paladins:
- One code for base class, Inquisitors, and Undead Hunters.
- Separate code for Cavaliers.

Rangers:
- One code for base class.
- One code for Stalkers & Storm Wardens.
- One code for Archers & Beastmasters.


This is a work in progress. I welcome feedback. Thanks for reading!
Post edited by Nifft on
Darksheer
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Comments

  • revaarrevaar Member Posts: 160
    Wow, I love all the thought you've put into this so far. The biggest challenge will be in the mage classes I think. Will you be writing new spells to make specialists more special, or making new mage kits?
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    I'm not really sure what can be done for specialist mages... Maybe after I've gotten the divine parts working I will gain some insight.

    IMHO the dragon disciple is a step in the right direction.

    I do have some Bard ideas, which will get added in a bit.

    Thanks for reading, it's a long post! :-)
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    Sounds nice. I allways found the AD&D Rules are a little bit to restricted.
    But I would not give everybody the Proficiencies, it feels good to put them self in.
    More difference in Class and Kits sounds very good. Keep up the good work.
    There was a never finished mod with some interessting ideas like you have:
    http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showforum=168
  • LugeLuge Member Posts: 90
    Good start.

    I disagree with the Cloakwood and Shadow Druid kits. It seems fairly obvious from the lore and the in-game storyline that the Cloakwood Druids ARE Shadow Druids. I would leave Totemic Druid a bit closer to how it is.

    It already has a certain balance to it as it is:

    - Druid: Some shapechanging, some animal summoning.
    - Shapeshifter: Better shapechaning, no animal summoning.
    - Totemic: No shapechaning, better summoning.

    You've also made it so BOTH Cloakwood and Shadow Druids use undead-related powers. Druids are really anti-undead. It's the complete opposite of nature. Now, I can understand if you really want to introduce more undead into ONE druid kit... But to TWO? That's too far.

    Consider making the animal companion ability based off the Totemic Druid summoning ability (so that it's not a spell).

    I like your ranger ideas, but consider that the only reason why rangers don't wear armour is so they can use stealth. Stealth for a non-thief isn't much use in BG1 (or BG2), so think about things that Rangers could do while stealthed. Otherwise, you might as well let them wear real armour and be nerfed fighters, as you say.

    Finally, I think Ankheg armour should still be viable for the nature-types. There's only one in the game, and it's a real treat when you get it, a bit like Elven chainmail.

    L.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Darkersun - thanks, it does look like some work is interesting over there.

    @Luge - Ah, I was probably unclear about the Cloakwood / Shadow druid stuff. My intention is to portray the Cloakwood Druid as the guys who emulate the ecology of the spider-haunted woods, while the Shadow Druids are the guys who kicked them out and took over. (The hunters at the lodge talk about how the previous Druids didn't give them any trouble, right?)

    It's my intention to have only ONE necromancy-tainted Druid, the Shadow guys. I totally agree, two is too many!

    The Cloakwood guys are supposed to be poison, insects, shapeshifting, and more spidery stuff. No undead, no Necromancy.

    Regarding existing Druids, yeah, on paper it looks like they could be balanced, but in play Shapehifting is such rubbish that it's not a factor.

    Regarding Rangers, I partially agree: the Stalker, for example, does have something he can do with Stealth, which is back-stabbing. However the Archer and the Dervish lose their heavy armor for different reasons:
    - The Archer is a power-house, and he needs a weakness. Melee is his weakness. His lack of proficiency in melee and his lack of armor are what make this a weakness.
    - The Dervish is designed to deliver a lot of high-damage attacks. He's not going to hit quite as hard as a Kensai, but it's in that direction. So, IMHO he needs to be a bit squishy to compensate. The flavor justification might be "he scorns heavy armor which would inhibit his ability to channel the elements", or something similar. He's a desert dervish, and he's a snow-running giant-killer, always light on his feet.

    There are two suits of Ankheg armor in the game (one in the field in Nashkel, one by commission from Thunderhammer Smithy), and they are totally useful for vanilla Druids and vanilla Rangers, as well as weaklings like Viconia.

    The trouble is that Ankheg armor is among the best armors in the game, and saying "you can only wear light armor OR the best armor in the game" isn't much of a restriction. On the other hand, I think there ought to be some interesting Hide armors created for the nature-guys (wyvern hide, winter wolf hide, etc.) so they have more options.

    Thanks, -- N
  • LugeLuge Member Posts: 90
    Here's the thing with armour: It's (literally) object-orientated in the code. That means each object has restrictions on who can use it, rather than kits having restrictions on what they can use. If you want to ban a class from using a particular item (armour), then you edit the item.

    Item files themselves only have 32 available usability "flags" that restrict them to a particular kit, and these are all used by the existing kits. This means there is no way to implement a unique set of restrictions for a new kit without restructuring usability for other kits.

    In short, it's real pain to implement.

    You're right, I forgot about the Thunderhammer armour. So you can have 2 sets in one party... Which is probably enough if you have a mage or two and some thief-types. I'm fairly sure that Ankheg armour stops Rangers from using stealth, so let's work with that instead.

    I would still like to have a Totemic Druid, even if it's altered. Mostly because I consider shapeshifting a waste of time as well. It's underpowered and you can't cast spells while morphed. So make the morphs better!

    L.

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Luge - That's true, the item limitations are harsh. I'm trying to group restrictions so I can re-use slots, like my Shadow Druid and my Avenger will have identical restrictions, so they can share an item slot.

    In my revision, my Avenger is a Druid who can't shape-change, and he gets a bunch of spells in trade for that limitation. Some of those spells are summoning ... maybe he'll be suited to your needs? He gets normal stats (unlike the current Avenger), but he loses all shape-changing, and thus he gets better spells.

    Ooo, also I think I messed up on the Stalker, I think his current armor restriction is that he can only wear up to Studded Leather... if so, the Stalker and my Dervish can also share an item restriction slot.

    I have an idea for a Beastmaster, too, which will be restricted to Leather and Hide, just like the Archer. He will have some interesting things to do with Stealth.

    Thanks! -- N
  • KsarfeksKsarfeks Member Posts: 8
    Hi Nifft, I like your idea about proficiencies. I could never realize the point behind a fighter being a master of some longsword and fighting style, but not being able to use a staff or a dagger. I have two comments:

    1) You may want to consider using 3.5 edition scheme for proficiencies (IWD2 style). In it there are simple weapons (staffs, slings, daggers etc.) and martial weapons (bows, longswords, maces etc.). Fighters get proficiency automatically in both types of weapons, but mages and some other classes only in simple.

    2) I don't see a practical point in restricting GM for multiclasses. Those who consider it illegal, do not put the extra pips in it anyway and will not need this mod. Those who do it, don't want it taken away and will not need this mod too. I mean there are discussions about it on board, but have you really ever seen anyone complaining that a restriction must be put into THEIR personal game, so that they cannot do, what they don't do anyway? Plus, it will save you a lot of headache.

    Regards, K
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Ksarfeks - Yes! That's a great way to think about it. Maybe I should take a cue from IWD2's and make some weapons "exotic", not automatically available to even the warrior-est of warrior types.

    IWD2 only had Bastard Swords as "exotic", so a warrior-type would get access to pretty much everything in the game other than Bastard Swords. That's a bit lame, even if BGEE has plenty of cool Bastard Swords.

    Hmm, maybe something like:

    Exotic:
    - Two-Handed Sword
    - Bastard Sword
    - Katana
    - Scimitar/Wakazishi/Ninjato

    ... so the "best" weapons (Drizzt's scimitars and Spider Bane) require extra effort even from a warrior type, but everything else is automatic.

    Kensai (only) might get one free proficiency slot in all of those, so they'd be the only class to start with all weapons equally available, because they are otherwise rather gimped in BGEE. Maybe.

    - - -

    Regarding multi-class, I dunno. I think a multi-class character picks from two sets of HLAs, and that can be overwhelmingly strong, so that's got to balance with overall power. My gnome Fighter/Illusionists have kicked a lot of butt even with mere Specialization, so I hesitate to muck with that.

    Thanks! -- N
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited March 2013
    I like the idea of chaninging the proficiencies. And I realy like the new Beastmaster ideas.

    How about having animal aspect buffs or partial shapechange (like claws of the Tiger, Strength of the Bear etc.) ?

    For Clerics, maybe add Kits for the NPC that clearly a priests of a specific god:
    Branwen - Tempus
    Viconia - Shar
    I don't know if this is possible for the dual class NPCs as well:
    Tiax & Quayle

    Mage Kits:
    It would be nice to have some real differences between the Kits.
    Maybe getting special Kit-spell or change the normal Mage that has no school.
    Like giving him option to use raw magic or something like that.

    Thief Kits:
    I allways find that some Thiefs Kits should be better in combat.
    For Example: Assassin & Bounty Hunter. Maybe remove the fighter dual class option for them and give them a better THAC0.
    The Swashbuckler should get extra attacks per round like a figher (no dual to fighter as well)

    Shadowdancer:
    Hide in Plain side is very strong (too strong I think).
    Maybe remove it and give him some Spellcasting abilitys from the Illusion school.
    The option to summoning a shadow would be great too.

    I'm not sure what to do with the Basic Thief.

    I will add ideas for the other Kits later as well.


    About Armor and Weapon restrictions.
    Do you know the Item Revisions mod. It make alot of changes that feel more natural to me. (Casting in Armor with penalty etc.) http://www.gibberlings3.net/item_rev/

    The Refinements mod has an interessting option for Armor as well.
    http://www.shsforums.net/forum/116-refinements/

    Revised Armors & Shields -> Gives Armor Damage Resistence insted of an AC
    Universal Lesser Mage Robes -> This component alters the lesser mage robes to be useable by monks too

    I never liked the D&D mechanic that heavy Armor makes you harder to hit.
    How well can a Knight in full Armor doge a blow ? But it should make you harder to take down.

    Will the chaged classes and Kits have influence on NPC's too ?

    PS. I don't wank you to just take stuff from other mod. It should only help finding good ideas ;)
    Post edited by Darkersun on
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited March 2013
    So now for the other Kits and Classes:

    Fighter:
    Stances would be nice. For example:
    Offense Stance: +X/Y To hit and Damage but penalties for defence
    Defence Stence: Better AC and resistence but penalties for Hit and DMG

    Berserker and Kensai feel ok for me.

    Mageslayer:
    Maybe some active abilitys to remove protective spells.
    Better Item selection would be good as well.
    Somethink like spellparry would be nice or the option to block some spells when a shield is equiped.

    Paladins:
    I like you idea of giving Paladins early spellcasting. Maybe with they own Spelllist (Holy Weapon, Bless etc.)

    Bards:
    They feel well rounded and have lot of options.

    Blades:
    Are very strong. Maybe remove the Bardsong and Pickpocket completly.
    They are Weapon artist, not singers.

    Sklads:
    Maybe remove the ability to cast spells at all.
    But give him Better Weapon skills (This Nordic bard is also a warrior of great strength, skill and virtue)
    Maybe a Battlecry / shout system would be nice.
    Or make it a Fighter Kit

    Jesters:
    I have not much ideas about him.

    Is it possible to give the Bard more than one Song ability ?

    I realy would love to have a Battlemage / Mageblade option.
    Some would say do Dualclass or Multiclass. Problem is, I don't like Elfs as PC and Dual class as well.
    (Never understood why yozu lose you abilitys till you reached a higher level. Oh I forget to use my sword, because I learn to cast spells)

    Hope you find some of the ideas helping / interessing.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Darkersun - Man, I was mulling over your previous batch of ideas, and now you go and give me more to think about! That's totally unfair.

    I'll tell you about my ideas for the Bard types, though.

    Bard Song gets divided into two separate things, Active Song and Passive Song.

    Passive Song is a constant bonus (or penalty) applied to all appropriate targets near the Bard.

    Active Song is what happens when you click the Bardic Music button. By default, all Bards have the "Remove Fear" song, but equipping a musical item will modify the Bard's Active Song. Some kits can't use some Bardic items; unkitted Bards can use all of them (which is a perk). Unfortunately, implementing this requires some program modifications, but I've put in a Feature Request and the devs seem to be listening. Fingers crossed! Anyway, here are my ideas:


    Bard - True Class
    Passive Song: allies gain +1 to all saving throws

    Bard - Blade
    Passive Song: none, Blades are strong enough

    Bard - Skald
    Skalds are immune to Fear. This is huge, since they can use their Active Song to remove fear from their allies.
    Skalds gain 1 free pip in Two-Handed Weapon style.
    Passive Song: allies gain +1 to damage rolls

    Bard - Jester
    Jesters are immune to Charm and Confusion.
    Passive Song: enemies suffer -1 to all saving throws

    - - -

    However a major element of Bard balance is going to be the new items. I'm not done statting them up yet, but here are my ideas so far. Note that all of these items are intended to go in the Shield slot.


    Myo's Gong
    This buckler was originally a gong in the monastery of Amunator. Temple fell to forces of evil, gong uses as a shield, worn down over the years, etc. Some portion of the monk's dedication remains in the gong, however, and when rung to accompany a hymn to Amunator, its magic can be felt.
    - Buckler +1
    - Hymn of Myo: When the gong is worn by a Bard, this effect replaces the wearer's Active Song. Allies gain +2 to saves vs. Death, and deal an extra +2 fire damage to Undead.
    Unusable by:
    - Evil Characters
    - Jesters


    Dire Old Lute of Pellon Kay
    - Dismal Dirge: When the lute is worn by a Bard, this effect replaces the wearer's Active Song. Enemies must save vs. Spell at +4 each round or be Confused.
    - Item may cast Dire Charm 1/day.
    Unusable by:
    - Good Characters
    - Skalds


    Lyre of Progression
    - March of Progress: When the lute is worn by a Bard, this effect replaces the wearer's Active Song. Allies become immune to Grease and Slow.
    - Wearer may prepare additional Arcane spells: one 2nd level and one 3rd level.
    Unusable by:
    - Blades


    Crystal Harp of Sune
    - Ode to Beauty: When the harp is worn by a Bard, this effect replaces the wearer's Active Song. When listening this song, the Bard's allies move more gracefully, and her foes stumble. Each round of performance, the Bard casts Chant with a 1-round duration.
    - Wearer gains immunity to disease.
    Unusable by:
    - Evil Characters
    - Blades


    Xen-tsu's Tuning Sai
    Shaped somewhat like the stump of a pitch-fork, this silvery weapon rings true like a tuning fork when struck by a blade -- the Bard's own weapon, or the sword of an enemy. The purity of its tone enhances any Bard's performance.
    - Functions as a Buckler +0, +3 vs. Slashing.
    - Purity of Mind: When the sai is held by a Bard, this effect replaces the wearer's Active Song. The Bard's allies gain a +2 bonus to saving throws vs. Spell. In addition, each round this song has a 30% chance to dispel Charm and Confusion from any listener, friendly or hostile.
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    This sounds really good to me. Just let me know when you are ready for more ideas ;)
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Darkersun said:

    This sounds really good to me. Just let me know when you are ready for more ideas ;)

    More Bardic instruments, with effects around the same power level as the ones I've got above, would be great.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Been thinking about how to handle Proficiency stuff.
    I've added this solution to the Proficiency section in the top post.


    Proficiency Solution (my best answer so far)
    - Clerics, Druids, and Mages (including Sorcerers) have a fixed proficiency list and never gain extra dots.
    - Warriors (Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers) start with one dot in many weapons, and do gain dots as they level.
    - Rogues (Thieves and Bards) start with one dot in a few weapons, and do gain dots as they level.

    Specifically, Warriors start with one dot in all weapons EXCEPT Halberd, Katana, Longbow, Scim/Wak/Nin and 2-Handed Sword.

    Barbarians get the Warrior base, plus one dot in Two-Handed Weapon Style.

    Rangers get the Warrior base, plus two dots in Two Weapon Style.

    Archers get the Warrior base, plus one free dot in Longbow.


    On the other hand, the Rogue base is one dot in Club, Crossbow, Dagger, Dart, Shortbow, Short Sword, Sling and Staff.

    From there, Thieves can put one dot in each of 3 weapons (Katana, Long Sword, Scim/Wak/Nin), two dots Single Weapon Style, and three dots in Two Weapon Style.

    Swashbucklers can do all the stuff Thieves can do, plus put two dots in all Thief weapons.

    Bards get the Rogue base, but they can put one dot in any weapon when they advance, and they can put one dot in any weapon style.

    Skalds get the Bard base, plus one dot in Two-Handed Weapon Style.

    Blades get the Bard base, plus they can put the maximum dots in any weapon style.

    Remaining Problems
    This scheme does mean that a Fighter > Rogue can still gain GM with a Fighter weapon using Thief proficiency dots, but the same trick can't be done with Fighter dualing into anything else, so it's at least better than before, even if it's not perfect.
    Dazzu
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    The proficiency stuff is mostly working, and the early spellcasting for Rangers and Paladins is working.

    Now to write some new spells, and finalize the spell list for each divine kit.
  • KasKas Member Posts: 28
    edited March 2013
    awesome !
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Kas - Clerics and Druids start out with all the Proficiency dots they will ever have. They get none on level up. Also, that kit is just for an NPC (Branwen).
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited March 2013
    Sounds perfect. Sorry didn't had much time lately. More ideas are coming soon ;)
    Will the changes have an impact on Enemys too ?
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Proficiency Update - almost ready to release a mod for this section. Multi-class proficiencies are working after some help from the kind folks over at the Gibberlings3 forums.

    @Darkersun - enemies ought to be proficient in their own weapons already, so that bit won't matter. In terms of spells, I'm not sure -- I'll look into what SCS does, since that handles mages pretty well.

    The Shadow Druids in Cloakwood will get a re-working, since right now IMHO they're pathetic. They'll also get some helpers:

    Vampiric Wolves, because these guys are the jerks who have been creating the evil things and sending them to harass civilized folks.
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited March 2013
    So, sorry for the long wait. I was a little bit inactive.

    You wanted ideas for Bard-song items:

    Singing Blade
    Shotsword +1/+2 (maybe the option to upgrade ?)
    - Active Song: Blade song (+1 THAC0, + 1 AC)
    - Wearer may cast Sininging Blade 2/day. Same as the Active song, but the Bard can fight (buff spell)
    Unusable by:
    - All Bards

    Axe of Heroic Tales / Two-Handed Sword of Heroic Tales
    Returning Axe +1/+2 (throwable) / Two-Handed Sword +1/+2
    - Active Song: Tales of Blood and Bones (+2 dmg, +1 THAC0)
    - Item may cast Strength 1/day
    Unusable by:
    - Skalds

    Deafening Drum
    - Active song: Song for the deaf, all in the area under the spell Deafness
    - Item may cast Sound Burst 1/day (area damage spell, centered on the caster)

    Electric guitar (easter egg) ?
    - Active song: The Power of Rock, enemys must make a saving throw or will be under the effect of fear
    - Item may cast Call Lightning 1/day

    Violin of Sorrow
    - Active song: Song of Sorrow, ememy must make savingthrow -2 or be blinded (they cry)
    - Item may cast Silence, 15' Radius 2/day

    I know they are not very thought through, but maybe it gives you some ideas.
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  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @subtledoctor - Good thinking on Quarterstaff and on Swashbuckler starting proficiencies!

    Adding +1/2 APR at Swash level 13 is something I've been thinking about -- it's the level where a Fighter would get his 2nd full APR, so the warrior types won't be overshadowed -- but that's way past the BGEE XP cap, so I'm not going to worry about it yet.

    I don't want to slow down Thief proficiencies too much, though, because otherwise they'll never get to put their 3 dots in TWF or two dots in Single Weapon (under the BGEE cap). Maybe slowing down proficiency dots will make more sense in BG2:EE?

    My current beta actually speeds up dots for Warriors and Thieves:
    - every 2 levels for Warriors
    - every 3 levels for Thieves
    ... so a Thief can't use a Scimitar until 3rd level (since that's not one of the default Thief proficiencies).

    Good idea on Berserkers. At 3 dots (Mastery) they'd still be more skilled than Barbarians, but less than a true-class Fighter.

    Regarding Kensai ... I don't really play them, but some people seem to really like the Ken>Mage option. I hesitate to remove it.


    @Darkersun - Some good stuff in there! Some too powerful, but I think I can use the ideas!


    Thanks, -- N
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  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @subtledoctor - With 1 pip per 3 levels, and my selection of "free" 1st level proficiencies, that means at 10th level a Thief will have 3 pips to allocate. For a regular Thief, that means:
    - *** TWF, or
    - * Longsword or Scimitar or Katana + ** Single Weapon Style
    ... I think those are both good options.

    With your Swashbuckler style proficiency idea, at 10th level a Swashbuckler could have:
    - *** TWF + ** Short Swords or Daggers, or
    - ** Single Weapon Style + ** Scimitar or Longsword or Katana, or
    - *** TWF + * Scimitar or Longsword or Katana
    ... again, all good options.

    When BG2 rolls in, then at 12th level he'll be able to get *** TWF + ** Katana.


    Maybe I can figure out the syntax to make your Kensai preference an option. Then it will STILL be up to the individual player, but it'll be slightly more convenient for people who want help avoiding cheese.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214

    Anyway, just throwing ideas out there. Do it as you see fit. I can always 'mod the mod' if I use it in my game. :)

    @subtledoctor I think you just created metamodding :)
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    mlnevese
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065

    what happens at level-up if you have a point to spend and nowhere to put it?

    Thanks to the otherwise useless Beastmaster, we know the answer! See, a Beastmaster > Cleric will encounter this issue during ToB, and enough people complained about being unable to level up, so that now the engine is smart enough to let you discard un-allocateable proficiency dots.
    Eudaemonium
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