Hmmm you should lose rep point for edwin... and thats simple He is Red wizard.... people hate red wizard almost as much as orchs and drow... their contry are know to be evil in Abir-toril.. someplaces if you weare red wizard robe you get killed.... they have tried to lessen their bad rep by selling magical items to other countries in 3rd edition era of abir-toris thats if i remember correctly now is somewhat 40-60 years after the time of trouble... but all of that got dashed by there rulers sazz tam the arch lich (and one of elministers nemisis). he tried to be god so he devoured almost all the living soul in they in one go.
as i said yearlier red wizard are known in abir-toril to be as evil as drow. thus we should get rep loss whenever edwin joins our party...
All I am saying is that if you are going to say that reputation of being a Drow or a Half-Orc alone is enough of a 'Reputation' negative to drag down an entire party, then being a Red Wizard should be as well. it is affiliation with a known "Evil" organization or group.
I'll give you that Tiax, Xzar and Monty shouldn't in and of themselves be a rep drag, but I have always had a problem with Edwin not giving a negative since low is supposed to be Evil.
As for the Red Wizards in the forest, they are planning to over-run either Nashkal or Beregost (I can't remember which). They don't move because that is the way the game is designed. if the mechanics allowed for time passage and actual movement of enemies around the board, I am sure it would be scripted that they attack. And if you don't have Edwin with you when you encounter them, they invariably attack the party. They are a threat.
And if you think that Xzar and Monty are "flying under the radar", they don't do a very good job at it. I am sure that every town they have entered has experienced mysterious deaths and have a very short list of who they suspect is behind it. But I will give you that they probably don't leave an obvious trail behind (no actual PROOF). All IMHO.
Oh? When you first meet them there is -nothing- to indicate they are evil. If anything they seem quite the opposite as they're offering you healing potions, companionship because it's dangerous wandering the woods alone these days and they claim to be investigating the current hardships in the region and asks you to come along. They even make comments about how the potions are free even if you don't.
Unless you read their biographies (which wouldn't be available 10 seconds after meeting them if you think about it) it takes quite a while before it becomes abundantly clear they're a force of evil. Xzar seems insane, or eccentric at best and Montaron just comes across as a bit of an ass. I'd say they do a fairly decent job of not drawing undue attention to the fact they're evil. How you come up with the idea they randomly murder people in every town they enter I have no idea.
Um, it took all of one outcry of "Stop TOUCHING meeeeeee!" to realize that Xzar was a little off. Add him yelling "I am become DEATH! Destroyer of WORLDS!" and i was sold.
Even when you meet them in the woods, there is something quite a bit off about them. Anyone at all who spends any kind of time with them (say as they passed an evening in an Inn in Beregost or the FAI where these two happen to also be), would quite quickly realize that these guys are not your normal travelers. Plus the fact that Xzar's penchant for necromancy and Monty's skill with 'Silent' kills, I'd bet that they have left a trail of bodies wherever they have gone.
Still, with that being said, I again admit that Tiax, Xzar and Monty all probably wouldn't constitute a rep hit merely to travel with the party. Edwin is another matter entirely (IMHO).
And I would say Edwin doesn't 'do' anything evil. And how do you know he's recruiting 'everyone'? I doubt he's hitting up the farm folk who can hardly hold a pitchfork to go kill gnolls. So really, he's just one more outlander is weird dress. During a crisis, when the town's getting more than a few.
Montaron doesn't sound more like an ass than Quayle, who is neutral. Monty makes it clear that he is a loner and just wants to be left alone; Quayle openly belittles your intellect. Xzar also doesn't come off as evil, just as a nutjob. And there are more than a few people in every place you visit that are a bit nutty. It's nothing that stands out. Same as Edwin, he can talk all he wants about how he'll beat Elminster one day, he's still talking to himself without realizing you can hear him. If he already seems unaware that you, who walks right next to him, can hear it, it's quite clear how this looks to other people: not so sane.
There is also nothing indicating that Edwin tried to recruit anyone except your party. No-one mentions to have talked to him, so he probably waited for adventurers to come along and otherwise didn't talk to commoners (which would be below him anyway). Dorn, on the other hand, has interacted with Taris - and intimidated her. He probably talked to other people on the Sword Coast in the same way, since Taris doesn't have a blinking sign saying "INFORMATION ABOUT SIMMEON HERE". Dorn made an impression the other evil NPCs did not make.
There are lots of reasons why Dorn affects rep when other evil NPCs don't.
* Half orcs attract racial predudice. It's not as strong as for Drow, but it still exists (I think PC half orcs should begin with -1 rep).
* Blackguards have a palpable aura of evil around them, that even non-paladins may be able to sense. (Minsc and Imoen sense it when you first meet him).
* He is a wanted mass murderer. There may well be wanted posters with his face on plastered around the place.
I agree with Kid that if you're going by public reaction to who the party is seen with, the rep loss should only be for Viconia and Dorn because of their race.
There isn't anything that I can see to indicate that word would have spread about other Evil characters to the degree that one would be judged by being seen with them.
Maybe Shar-Teel, given that she might be challenging every male she sees to a duel. We can't fully assume that she does it to everyone, though. A rep loss for being seen with her would make more sense if she is located on the Coast Way or in a town rather than out in the wilderness.
And then you'd have to take into consideration how other women would see her. Maybe many desperate housewives, pardon the pun, would admire her for her strength and not see it as "bad/evil" if she challenges men to fight her. And you can't have two reputations depending on who looks at your party and judges them.
Well, but to be antagonizing folks who otherwise wish to simply travel unmolested would have a nuisance factor if nothing else. I don't see merchants spreading kind words about such an individual. If she were simply a sellsword offering to demonstrate her skills to anyone is willing to fight her then the reaction could even be favorable, I think. But as she presents herself she's an antagonist to travelers who presumably wish to mind their own business. She's provocative in her behavior.
She doesn't approach you though. She just stands there and will only challenge you if you talk to her. So she's not harrassing unwilling travellers to fight her.
Right, that's true. Just going from my not-so-reliable memory of the initial dialogue here: but I think she also gives you the option to decline the challenge to duel her (and then insults you if you do decline).
Well, anyway, if you talk to her she's obnoxious and aggressive is basically what I'm saying. I could see whatever word that may be spread about her in Beregost (trade hub that it is) as being as largely unfavorable. But perhaps that's just me.
Edwin= red wizard Red Wizard = more evil than a drow for surface dwellers on Abir-toril Red Wizard followers = rep loss and thats logical
The Red Wizards at their height were the enemies of many forces in Abir-Toril and received support from demons, devils, and drow. Amongst those who opposed them were the Witches of Rashemen, the Seven Sisters and their allies, the goodly Harpers, and even the Zhentarim, who disliked the Wizards encroaching on their territory. After another failed attempt at securing Rashemen in 1357 DR, the Red Wizards planned to infiltrate the nations of Faerûn legitimately — in Thayan enclaves which would publicly sell magic items and quietly also traffic drugs, wicked spells, and slaves. Using these they hoped to eventually have strongholds and resulting political infiltration that would make them indispensable and powerful, and eventually get them something along the lines of world domination.
Shar-Teel stands around with a long sword and a dagger clearly visible. If you approach her, you can be reasonably certain you're dealing with an aggressive fighter. She's not out of line to call you a coward if you back off. She does not attack either way, only if you agree to her terms/offer. She's also upfront about all of that and doesn't try to trick you. I'm not sure how memorable that would be to someone who travels her way, innocently asks for directions (still, hard to ignore her weapons...) and gets a rude comment when declining the challenge... She also takes no as an answer from Dorn when she challenges him, without further conflict.
Red Wizard followers - no, not the case. Edwin follows you. You are who keeps the threat in line. If you actually make Edwin your party leader... well, then your rep should drop to "-10 (seen as idiot)".
To those stating Edwins affiliated with the Red Wizard as a legitimate reason for rep loss, I have to ask would people assume hes with the red wizards simply because hes wearing a red robe? this is a legitimate question, do commoners in the forgotten realms setting immediatly jump to the conclusion anyone in a red robe is affiliated with the Red Wizards?
To those stating Edwins affiliated with the Red Wizard as a legitimate reason for rep loss, I have to ask would people assume hes with the red wizards simply because hes wearing a red robe? this is a legitimate question, do commoners in the forgotten realms setting immediatly jump to the conclusion anyone in a red robe is affiliated with the Red Wizards?
I would say yes... if you wering openly red wizard robes then you will be treated as a drow...
After another failed attempt at securing Rashemen in 1357 DR, the Red Wizards planned to infiltrate the nations of Faerûn legitimately — in Thayan enclaves which would publicly sell magic items and quietly also traffic drugs, wicked spells, and slaves. Using these they hoped to eventually have strongholds and resulting political infiltration that would make them indispensable and powerful, and eventually get them something along the lines of world domination.
with other words edwin should get you a rep loss
"source forgotten realms"
In other words, the Red Wizards are in the middle of a major PR campaign. They are legitimate merchants. They deal in drugs and slaves SECRETLY. i.e. no rep loss.
The Red Wizards are described as the enemies of many forces in Abeir-Toril—whilst they receive support from demons and devils and drow, among those who oppose them are the Witches of Rashemen, the Seven Sisters and their allies, the goodly Harpers, and even the Evil orginization Zhentarim, who dislike the wizards encroaching on their territory.
with other word rep loss.... they are tooooo famous they have world domination goals... nothing can change that... red wizard are the drow of the human race... very simple.. nothing against Edwin... but as long as he runs around with a red wizard rob we should get rep loss... much like viconia cuz she is a drow....
To those stating Edwins affiliated with the Red Wizard as a legitimate reason for rep loss, I have to ask would people assume hes with the red wizards simply because hes wearing a red robe? this is a legitimate question, do commoners in the forgotten realms setting immediatly jump to the conclusion anyone in a red robe is affiliated with the Red Wizards?
Being a Red wizard also involves Tatoos, which presumably Edwin has. Also, it isn't merely a 'Red Robe' there are specific robes that they wear and presumably the style he wears is similar. Plus, he isn't exactly secretive about his affiliation. he flaunts it. He may not be recruiting just anyone to kill Dynaiher, but he certainly is recruiting anyone whom he thinks is capable. And he isn't standing around in Nashkal for his health, so he is probably looking for people and approaching any adventurer types.
At the end of the day, if Viconia is treated negatively because she is perceived to be Drow and Dorn is treated negatively because he is perceived to be Half-Orc, it makes sense that Edwin would be likewise treated negatively because he is perceived to be a Red Wizard of Thay. That's all I am saying. If people aren't looking more than skin deep, his robes are on the outside.
Edwin does, as far as we can see from BOTH portraits, not have tattooes that are visible with the clothes. Maybe he has some on the arms or back or whatever, but you don't see them. Even if he had face tattooes, you would only see them up close, so it's not like a drow you'd recognize at first sight. Also, I could simply change his colors. Conjurers are associated with purple. If Edwin wants to fly under the radar - maybe because he knows that Red Wizards aren't THAT popular and has the 18 INT to draw a conclusion like that - he could simply wear a cape or other robe. The game lets you change that legally (unlike giving a drow a different skin color) and it's impossible to make the game react to such things.
Edwin introduces himself as "a mage of some reknown", not as a Red Wizard, so he obviously has enough common sense to not rub it in everyone's face.
You don't loose reputation because Viconia or Dorn are evil, but because the are Dow or Half-Orc.
I think in Dorn's case its more the Blackguard thing and him being half-orc is just icing on the cake. In the forgotten realms setting Half-Orcs are generally not to popular and avoided but its not like Drow were the commoners will shout "KILL IT!" on sight.
Well, you definitively loose the reputation because of Viconias race. I do not know if you loose it for race or class in case of Dorn - someone could ask the developers - but I do not think it's because of being a blackguard. It is because people who see you think "Oh, look at this evil dow and half-ork in this group!". You could argue now that the same should be the case when you have other evil folk in your team. But this would amplify exactly what is the problem with the reputation system in BG, that everyone seems to know what you and others have done anywhere - even in other dimensions - anytime. Reputation seems to spread via Facebook. If you would change reputation everytime you recruit an evil cahr it would be like putting a sign on their forehead. BG reputation is not best, but would be worse this way. Look at Jahera and Edwin, they change the behaviour of people who really know them towards the group, and this is the way it should be...
It is because people who see you think "Oh, look at this evil dow and half-ork in this group!".
Dorn is pretty much all covered up in plate though, and if you chuck a helmet on him too, it's hard to see he's a half-orc. Arguably you could say the same about Viconia, though her low strength tends to have her running around in chain or splint and whatnot, and that leaves her ebony skin showing somewhat.
Yes, and how do they recognise it in the moment you recruit Viconia in the woods far awayfrom everyone? I think I mentioned that the reputation system of bg is not best, but it's the way it is.
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as i said yearlier red wizard are known in abir-toril to be as evil as drow. thus we should get rep loss whenever edwin joins our party...
I'll give you that Tiax, Xzar and Monty shouldn't in and of themselves be a rep drag, but I have always had a problem with Edwin not giving a negative since low is supposed to be Evil.
As for the Red Wizards in the forest, they are planning to over-run either Nashkal or Beregost (I can't remember which). They don't move because that is the way the game is designed. if the mechanics allowed for time passage and actual movement of enemies around the board, I am sure it would be scripted that they attack. And if you don't have Edwin with you when you encounter them, they invariably attack the party. They are a threat.
Unless you read their biographies (which wouldn't be available 10 seconds after meeting them if you think about it) it takes quite a while before it becomes abundantly clear they're a force of evil. Xzar seems insane, or eccentric at best and Montaron just comes across as a bit of an ass. I'd say they do a fairly decent job of not drawing undue attention to the fact they're evil. How you come up with the idea they randomly murder people in every town they enter I have no idea.
Even when you meet them in the woods, there is something quite a bit off about them. Anyone at all who spends any kind of time with them (say as they passed an evening in an Inn in Beregost or the FAI where these two happen to also be), would quite quickly realize that these guys are not your normal travelers. Plus the fact that Xzar's penchant for necromancy and Monty's skill with 'Silent' kills, I'd bet that they have left a trail of bodies wherever they have gone.
Still, with that being said, I again admit that Tiax, Xzar and Monty all probably wouldn't constitute a rep hit merely to travel with the party. Edwin is another matter entirely (IMHO).
Xzar also doesn't come off as evil, just as a nutjob. And there are more than a few people in every place you visit that are a bit nutty. It's nothing that stands out. Same as Edwin, he can talk all he wants about how he'll beat Elminster one day, he's still talking to himself without realizing you can hear him. If he already seems unaware that you, who walks right next to him, can hear it, it's quite clear how this looks to other people: not so sane.
There is also nothing indicating that Edwin tried to recruit anyone except your party. No-one mentions to have talked to him, so he probably waited for adventurers to come along and otherwise didn't talk to commoners (which would be below him anyway). Dorn, on the other hand, has interacted with Taris - and intimidated her. He probably talked to other people on the Sword Coast in the same way, since Taris doesn't have a blinking sign saying "INFORMATION ABOUT SIMMEON HERE". Dorn made an impression the other evil NPCs did not make.
* Half orcs attract racial predudice. It's not as strong as for Drow, but it still exists (I think PC half orcs should begin with -1 rep).
* Blackguards have a palpable aura of evil around them, that even non-paladins may be able to sense. (Minsc and Imoen sense it when you first meet him).
* He is a wanted mass murderer. There may well be wanted posters with his face on plastered around the place.
There isn't anything that I can see to indicate that word would have spread about other Evil characters to the degree that one would be judged by being seen with them.
Maybe Shar-Teel, given that she might be challenging every male she sees to a duel. We can't fully assume that she does it to everyone, though. A rep loss for being seen with her would make more sense if she is located on the Coast Way or in a town rather than out in the wilderness.
Well, anyway, if you talk to her she's obnoxious and aggressive is basically what I'm saying. I could see whatever word that may be spread about her in Beregost (trade hub that it is) as being as largely unfavorable. But perhaps that's just me.
Red Wizard = more evil than a drow for surface dwellers on Abir-toril
Red Wizard followers = rep loss and thats logical
The Red Wizards at their height were the enemies of many forces in Abir-Toril and received support from demons, devils, and drow. Amongst those who opposed them were the Witches of Rashemen, the Seven Sisters and their allies, the goodly Harpers, and even the Zhentarim, who disliked the Wizards encroaching on their territory.
After another failed attempt at securing Rashemen in 1357 DR, the Red Wizards planned to infiltrate the nations of Faerûn legitimately — in Thayan enclaves which would publicly sell magic items and quietly also traffic drugs, wicked spells, and slaves. Using these they hoped to eventually have strongholds and resulting political infiltration that would make them indispensable and powerful, and eventually get them something along the lines of world domination.
with other words edwin should get you a rep loss
"source forgotten realms"
Red Wizard followers - no, not the case. Edwin follows you. You are who keeps the threat in line. If you actually make Edwin your party leader... well, then your rep should drop to "-10 (seen as idiot)".
with other word rep loss.... they are tooooo famous
they have world domination goals... nothing can change that... red wizard are the drow of the human race... very simple.. nothing against Edwin... but as long as he runs around with a red wizard rob we should get rep loss... much like viconia cuz she is a drow....
At the end of the day, if Viconia is treated negatively because she is perceived to be Drow and Dorn is treated negatively because he is perceived to be Half-Orc, it makes sense that Edwin would be likewise treated negatively because he is perceived to be a Red Wizard of Thay. That's all I am saying. If people aren't looking more than skin deep, his robes are on the outside.
Also, I could simply change his colors. Conjurers are associated with purple. If Edwin wants to fly under the radar - maybe because he knows that Red Wizards aren't THAT popular and has the 18 INT to draw a conclusion like that - he could simply wear a cape or other robe. The game lets you change that legally (unlike giving a drow a different skin color) and it's impossible to make the game react to such things.
Edwin introduces himself as "a mage of some reknown", not as a Red Wizard, so he obviously has enough common sense to not rub it in everyone's face.
I think I mentioned that the reputation system of bg is not best, but it's the way it is.