Skip to content

Backstabbing, Role playing & Metagaming

I have a hard time using backstabbing in BG. I mean, I've done it, and it can be devastating, but I have a hard time deciding to do it.

I get the idea of hiding in shadows, and scouting ahead. But I can't really backstab many of the adversaries I find while scouting unless I'm doing some pretty serious metagaming. The vast majority of adversaries aren't hostile until after some sort of interaction with my party. I know they are going to attack, but my thief doesn't know that.

Then, from a role playing perspective, it always seems a bit off if my thief runs away to find a spot to hide while the rest of the party is actively engaged in combat. Yeah, it might be for the greater good if he/she can hide, and then come back and deliver a devastating backstab, but it still seems wrong.

How do you make backstabbing work for you? Do you repeatedly hide and stab in the heat of battle? Do you have your rogue hidden in the shadows before every encounter, just in case it turns hostile? Or do you just metagame it, and backstab the baddies before the party interaction?

Comments

  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    Depends what alignment you are.

    My evil F/T prepared to backstab LITERALLY EVERYBODY that we ever encountered in the wild. Dorn or Kagain would initiate conversation, and if the person proved hostile (or if I felt like it), I'd backstab them immediately.

    But regardless of your alignment, with all the bandits hanging about the Sword Coast these days, it's a safe bet that a group of heavily armored thugs you've scouted is going to attack you once they've found you. Or if you're negotiating with a volatile necromancer, it's only common sense to prepare for the worst.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    I'd actually say that the vast majority of enemies are hostile by default.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    edited March 2013
    I have never backstabbed anyone. One of those things that goes back to PNP days. It just seems like a dirty trick and its completely unnecessary. Any opponent can be beat face to face if you're smart about it.
  • DarrylsonDarrylson Member Posts: 87
    My Neutral Evil assassin backstabbed pretty much everyone who even remotely looked like a threat, or if they had been ordered to kill them already. Ragefast and the mage in the house with all the Battle Horrors are two non-hostile NPCs I've killed that come to mind.

    This actually got me in trouble at the end of ToSC, since I had my assassin, as per usual, stealth and go into the room where Aec'letec is summoned and one shot the cult leader with a critstab before she could ever initiate dialogue. As a result I was unable to complete the quest since Aec'letec was never summoned and the cult leader didn't have the Soul Taker Dagger on her body.

    In short, I only think Evil thieves (maybe paranoid/violent non-lawful Neutral and Good ones) can backstab with RP justifications. Also, I rarely backstab in the midst of combat, and if I do I use a potion of invisibility or the Sandthief Ring to do so, I never run off into a corner and hide. Backstabs are best for opening combat and one shotting mages or other sqishy opponents.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Neutral evil assassin here. Being evil, there is no issue about it being "unfair" because every potential enemy could be beat in a "fair" face to face fight. Why would my thief care about fairness? He made a career out of playing dirty; he chose to specialize as an assassin after all.
    It's not metagaming to have a thief scout ahead, wait for the rest of the group to catch up and initiate conversation while waiting in the shadows as backup. It's how assassins operate. It's also unlikely that the thief is the party leader, at least in my parties, the paladin/blackguard or bard leads. So I have to wait this or that way before I backstab because the thief went ahead and can't know what order the leader will give.

    I never ever use hide in shadows; it's invisibility potions, scrolls and spells. Those make more sense for scouting because I can disarm traps without breaking strealth. Usually, backstabbing the boss (after the party came in range to engage henchmen) is the opener for the fight, after that, I have the thief withdraw (with poisoned weapon) until he reaches the mage and either switches to ranged weapon or can be rendered invisible again.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Shadowdancer kit can hide in plain sight so he is very useful and fun to use in battle. :-) I'm loving it.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    So, I guess it comes down to your approach.

    For me, my thief will often times sneak behind enemy lines and wait in the shadows until the enemy shows it's true colors. She (usually Imoen or Jan in BG2) will position to strike behind whatever combatant looks like either the caster or the most dangerous and wait. The rest of the party then approaches to talk. If things go south, my thief will strike from shadows. For me, I don't see this as a moral dilemma at all. I gave them the chance to prove non-hostile and they failed. Perfectly within Role Playing.

    Now, on my evil party run-throughs, Monty is ready to kill anyone who even remotely looks dangerous, so no dilemma there either.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Imoen is usually hiding while I am talking... If they turn red (with presumably the red mist coalescing in a circle at their feet) Imoen is ready to plant a blade between the shoulder blades.

    If they stay cool, well, Imoen carries on hiding...
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Wanderon said:

    Anduin said:

    Imoen is usually hiding while I am talking... If they turn red (with presumably the red mist coalescing in a circle at their feet) Imoen is ready to plant a blade between the shoulder blades.

    If they stay cool, well, Imoen carries on hiding...

    Sometimes when they stay cool in my games she pinches them on the butt to see if they jump...

    A true story for any classic Dr Who fans.....

    Colin Baker told a story (and was verified by Nicola Bryant), when they were shooting their first scene together, he had to crouch down and hide behind her. Well, while shooting the scene, Colin actually bit her behind. He said 'Well, it was right there.' what a way to introduce yourself to your new co-star? But then, who wouldn't have done the same, considering....



  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2013
    The hide-in-shadows skill of a thief in this game is akin to invisibility, in practice. I guess it's basically ninja-like. Almost mystical. There's no other way that Thieves could actually sneak up undetected the way they do. But it's a skill that's intended as a part of the play balance. So I use it. Arguably, enemy thieves should respond in kind far more than they do, in the interest of truly balanced play. But whatever.

    It does derive from my metagame knowledge, but I have a Thief scout ahead to reveal hostile enemies. I position the backstabbing thief and always initiate the encounter with some sort of dialogue using the party's visible characters. A lot of that dialogue is scripted to fire when you enter the enemy's perception range anyway, which most often consists of a threat to kill you. When they declare themselves as hostile the Thief (or Thieves) makes the backstab.

    I mean, if I felt really strongly about it feeling unbelievable that Thieves get to position themselves to attack too easily, I could go to the trouble to cast invisibility on all the Thieves, or have them drink invisibility potions, before the attack. But as I said, I rationalize a Thief's stealth as basically akin to a mystical skill.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • TogglebottomTogglebottom Member Posts: 17
    edited March 2013
    hummer010 said:


    I get the idea of hiding in shadows, and scouting ahead. But I can't really backstab many of the adversaries I find while scouting unless I'm doing some pretty serious metagaming. The vast majority of adversaries aren't hostile until after some sort of interaction with my party. I know they are going to attack, but my thief doesn't know that.

    If you are saying setting up a backstab before an encounter that turns hostile is metagaming, look at it this way: three different people/groups of people try to kill you on the first day of your adventure (four if you go directly to FAI). At that point anyone in their right mind would trust no one, and have every anticipatory countermeasure available in place at all times. Your thief doesn't know an encounter is going to turn hostile, but based on previous experience, there seems to be a high likelihood it will.

    If you're talking about backstabbing blue targets before they turn red simply because you the gamer knows they will turn red anyway, why not wait until they turn red then backstab?

    Personally, my thieves backstab once at the beginning of combat and don't run off to re-hide. They get one shot, unless they want to drink an invis potion after their first attempt.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Wanderon said:

    Anduin said:

    Imoen is usually hiding while I am talking... If they turn red (with presumably the red mist coalescing in a circle at their feet) Imoen is ready to plant a blade between the shoulder blades.

    If they stay cool, well, Imoen carries on hiding...

    Sometimes when they stay cool in my games she pinches them on the butt to see if they jump...
    I used to know a cute Hungarian girl who would say "we'd better nip it in the butt" instead of "nip it in the bud".
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    @hummer010 , consider that 3rd edition didn't call it "backstab" anymore - it's a sneak attack. Rogues can't fight well with a sword, but they know where it hurts with a dagger.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    hummer010 said:


    I get the idea of hiding in shadows, and scouting ahead. But I can't really backstab many of the adversaries I find while scouting unless I'm doing some pretty serious metagaming. The vast majority of adversaries aren't hostile until after some sort of interaction with my party. I know they are going to attack, but my thief doesn't know that.

    If you are saying setting up a backstab before an encounter that turns hostile is metagaming, look at it this way: three different people/groups of people try to kill you on the first day of your adventure (four if you go directly to FAI). At that point anyone in their right mind would trust no one, and have every anticipatory countermeasure available in place at all times. Your thief doesn't know an encounter is going to turn hostile, but based on previous experience, there seems to be a high likelihood it will.

    If you're talking about backstabbing blue targets before they turn red simply because you the gamer knows they will turn red anyway, why not wait until they turn red then backstab?

    Personally, my thieves backstab once at the beginning of combat and don't run off to re-hide. They get one shot, unless they want to drink an invis potion after their first attempt.
    In any case, i wouldn't consider it meta-gaming. Being adventurers in the wild, it is always a better course of action to be prepared for hostility "Just in case". Think of it in Frontier times. Some guy walks up to you in the middle of the plains, they may mean you no harm, but you sure as shootin better be ready with your gun 'Just in case'.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    atcDave said:

    I have never backstabbed anyone. One of those things that goes back to PNP days. It just seems like a dirty trick and its completely unnecessary. Any opponent can be beat face to face if you're smart about it.

    A nice sentiment, but the ability to re-load a save aside, seems a bit unrealistic for a character that does not have a rigid moral code forbidding ambush. That's all backstab is, really, a particularly sudden and deadly ambush.

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    I don't backstab before NPCs go red-circled, but you can still wait hidden behind them whilst another of your characters initiates conversation, then if they do go red, they get a pointy item showed in their kidneys. I don't have a problem with even Imoen doing this, she wouldn't be killing "innocents". Tranzig is a classic case of this.
Sign In or Register to comment.