Partially self-limiting thieving in stores?

Oxford_Guy

When playing good parties, I rarely steal from stores, but in my current game with a chaotic neutral Blade CHARNAME it really seems a shame not to put his pickpockets skill to good use. To prepare for this I had been selling *all* my gems and jewelry and high-value magic items that I don't need (at least the ones that he will buy) to the armour merchant in the Carnival Area (apart from rings, which he won't buy, they've been going to the main store in Nashkel, which is also quite easy to steal from), as he offers good prices and the store is one of the easiest to steal from (see: http://www.forgottenwars.com/bg1/miscellany.htm ).

My Blade is now Level and has 42 points in pick pockets, so with two potions of Master Thievery (bought from the Wandering Merchant near Durlag's Tower, though you can also get on from Vitaire in the Carnival Area, if you're quick about killing him) I can get 122 points in pickpockets, which gives a net pickpocket score of 112% vs. the armour merchant.

This means I can easily steal *everything* back from the armour merchant (inlcude Prism's emeralds, which I can then give to Oublek for his quest). Whilst "under the influence" of the potions I also pickpocket everyone in the Nashkel area (Volo, Zeke, the Great Gazib).

I've done this for all the gems and jewelry I sold, though won't be able to sell these again until I get to:

Black Lilly's in Baldur's gate

I've also sold and stolen back (fully charged - 50 charges) my Shield Amulet and the +1 Protection Amulet I bougt from the store next door. I'm also considering doing the same for my other magic rings and amulets (and maybe belts and possibly my magic ammo).

BUT - I'm tempted to pretty much stop there, otherwise in theory I could sell every single magic item (and Dorn's Full Plate etc.) my party owns and then steal *all* of it back, which seems a little excessive.

Also, it seems a little *wrong* to be able to shop lift a Suit of Full Plate Armour a +1 Large Shield or large two-handed weapons, for example - these could hardly be grabbed and hidden under clothing. It also seems wrong to be able to steal all this stuff then to openly wander around with all these items equiped and on display.

So, I'm thinking of limiting myself to shoplifting items that could conceivably be concealed under clothing, both for stealing and when in use - rings, amulets, perhaps belts. Also wands, potions and scrolls ( (though you can't sell or steal them from the armour merchant anyway) - they can't be concealed when in use, but you need only get them out when needed.

Off-limits would be: Armour, Shields, Cloaks, Boots, Robes (easy to steal, but not to conceal when worn), Two-handed weapons - basically anything that you can't conceal when worn

Items I'm undecided about whether to allow stealing for: one-handed weapons and magic ammo (could be tricky to RP concealing these when stealing, and you would have to display them openly when equipped with them), gloves (could be concealed for stealing, but have to be worn openly to be used).

What do people think? Does this sound like a reasonable compromise? I don't want to ban stealing from stores entirely, as it's a fun addition to the game and is one of the benefits of being a Bard, but wan't to make it a little less OP.

Oxford_Guy

Another options (perhaps combined with the above) would be to limit myself to stealing a fixed number of items per day from each store (which would limit usefulness of potions of Master Thievery), perhaps based on the level of the pick-pocketing character or as some factor related to their innate pock-pocketing skill, to make this still relevant.

Perhaps the character's innate pickpocket skill (before magic enhancement) divided by 10?

Lemernis

I guess for something like this I basically self-limit according to what I think would be most likely/believable in that world given the circumstances. Even if the game engine allows something that's unrealistic, how would the people there most likely behave "if it were real?" It's almost a certainty that a merchant would not buy unique items that he knew full well were in his possession in his store. Those pilfered items I would sell to another merchant; and I'd probably distribute sale of the stolen goods far and wide. Of course for stolen items that can only be sold to black market merchants, that's easy--same merchant. (Sorry, it's been ages since I played a game where I stole from stores. Hope I have that right.)

I vaguely recall doing an all rogue class game many years ago now where they stole everything that wasn't nailed down. Burgling the Duchal palace was a highlight. Anyway, it was pretty fun. I can't recall how much gold I ended up with but it was a small mountain.

Oxford_Guy

Lemernis said:

I guess for something like this I basically self-limit according to what I think would be most likely/believable in that world given the circumstances. Even if the game engine allows something that's unrealistic, how would the people there most likely behave "if it were real?" It's almost a certainty that a merchant would not buy unique items that he knew full well were in his possession in his store.

That's not the problem - you can't sell stolen goods back to the same merchant anyway in BGEE, in fact the merchant I listed is the *only* one that will buy stolen goods.

Lemernis said:

Those pilfered items I would sell to another merchant; and I'd probably distribute sale of the stolen goods far and wide. Of course for stolen items that can only be sold to black market merchants, that's easy--same merchant. (Sorry, it's been ages since I played a game where I stole from stores. Hope I have that right.)

I don't think you can sell back items stolen from the "fence" merchant I listed

I'm actually thinking combining:

a) Limiting what you can conceivable shop-lift and walk out the store with concealed (i.e. no suits of armour and two handed weapons etc.)

b) Setting a max. number of items (with each gem, counting as one, though maybe 5 arrows/bolts/bullets counting as one) per day that you can steal from an individual store (it doesn't seem realistic that you can clean out their entire stock in one swoop, and makes using potions of Master Thievery less OP). I'm thinking of setting this limit at the character's innate pickpocket skill (before magic enhancement), to make putting points in this skill still relevant, then dividing by 10, or even 15 or 20 (rounded down). 15 Maybe be a good compromise. My Blade could then still steal 3 items per shop per day at level 6 (42 pickpockets), 4 at level 7 (45 pickpockets) etc. It also makes non-kitted Bards and Jesters more relevant, as they have higher innate pick-pockets that Blades and Skalds.

This is partly for "realism", but also to avoid shop-lifting being too cheesy and OP - I don't want to ban myself entirely from this, since it's a fun thing for Bards and the like to do, but don't want to make it a game-breaker.

What do other's think?

Lemernis

Sorry for misunderstanding, it's just been such a long time since I used that skill. But yeah, if that feels right then sure!

Oxford_Guy

So, what does everyone think of my proposal regarding partially self-limiting thieving from stores? Am trying to keep this as a viable option, whilst avoiding excessive cheese.

Wanderon

Are you always successful when you steal or do you reload if you fail? As I recall failing would certainly stop you from using that merchant again and perhaps have greater consequences?

If so perhaps just forcing yourself to accept the consequences would be enough of a deterent or if thats too drastic then reload but take that store of your thief list for the rest of the game or at least a minimum of game days before you could return?

Unless of course what you seek is to have your cake and eat it too LOL...

Note that the earliest instance of "Have your cake and eat it too" may have been the ancient greeks who believed amethyst would protect one from the harmful effects of alcohol...

So they made drinking vessels with it... ;-)

Oxford_Guy

Wanderon said:

Are you always successful when you steal or do you reload if you fail? As I recall failing would certainly stop you from using that merchant again and perhaps have greater consequences?

Always successful, and I wouldn't reload if failed, I managed to steal well over 100 items, but am thinking of not doing this now and going back to an earlier save. This was with 42% pick pockets plus two potions of Master Thievery, so 122% overall

Wanderon said:

If so perhaps just forcing yourself to accept the consequences would be enough of a deterent or if thats too drastic then reload but take that store of your thief list for the rest of the game or at least a minimum of game days before you could return?

Unless of course what you seek is to have your cake and eat it too LOL...

No, I'd accept a failed roll if it happened, but it hasn't - I was trying to ensure I wouldn't fail by using the potions, but when using them I can clean out the entire store (where I have pretty much sold all my loot), which seems excessive.

I still want to steal from stores, as it's part of what being a Bard is about IMHO, but want it to be less cheesy, hence my proposals for self-limiting how much I can steal...

Wanderon

Aren't those potions pretty limited in supply?

Grakkel

I'd add a qualifier to your self-limitation:

You're allowed to steal back anything and everything, including multiple sets of full plate armor, as long as you play the Benny Hill song while you do so.

Oxford_Guy

Wanderon said:

Aren't those potions pretty limited in supply?

Well, they don't grow on trees before you can get to Baldur's Gate, but Vitaire drops one, if you can kill him quick enough, and you do get the odd one from random drops, but the main source is the wandering Merchant near Durlag's Tower, who has more than a dozen that you can obtain early on, if you have the cash.

But the point is you only really need two to clear our the whole of Nashkel town and carnival and to sell and steal back *all* your gear, if you don't self-limit how much you can steal!

KidCarnival

Wanderon said:

Aren't those potions pretty limited in supply?

Early in the game, yes. Perception and Master Thievery potions are available in some stores, but there are only 3 in each. (Later, you have higher pickpocket and need only one potion to get over 100, but most stores still only sell 3; the only merchant I know has more - 5 potions of perception - is the guy on the Durlag's map). If you plan carefully when to sell loot and steal it back, it's certainly enough. But this planning also requires to carry around or store shitloads of loot you can only sell to Black Lily much later. Either you only steal things you need (at least until you can enter the city), or you are investing in the future, as you won't see half your gold until then.

I usually limit my jester to stealing things he needs, and there is only so much of that available in the stores where you can steal. Nashkel doesn't have anything of interest, i.e. no magical ammo, which only leaves the option to sell loot, steal it back and wait to sell it again to Black Lily. By the time I get there, I swim in gold anyway.

Oxford_Guy

KidCarnival said:

Wanderon said:

Aren't those potions pretty limited in supply?

Early in the game, yes. Perception and Master Thievery potions are available in some stores, but there are only 3 in each. (Later, you have higher pickpocket and need only one potion to get over 100, but most stores still only sell 3; the only merchant I know has more - 5 potions of perception - is the guy on the Durlag's map).

If you plan carefully when to sell loot and steal it back, it's certainly enough. But this planning also requires to carry around or store shitloads of loot you can only sell to Black Lily much later.

That wouldn't really be much trouble, it's entirely possible to put everything you could steal into one barrel in Nashkel Carnival, to come back to later and gems are jewellry would be very easy to transport to Black Lilly's using Neera's gem bag.

KidCarnival said:

Either you only steal things you need (at least until you can enter the city), or you are investing in the future, as you won't see half your gold until then.

I usually limit my jester to stealing things he needs, and there is only so much of that available in the stores where you can steal. Nashkel doesn't have anything of interest, i.e. no magical ammo,

Yes, but you can buy many of the magic items the magic item merchant has (Sheild Amulet, One Gift Lost, +1 Protection Amulet) and from the Nashkel Store (+1 Large Shields), sell them all, then steal them back again and use them, though it would be worth draining most of the charges from the Amulet first.

KidCarnival said:

which only leaves the option to sell loot, steal it back and wait to sell it again to Black Lily. By the time I get there, I swim in gold anyway.

But - the main point is that it's entirely possible to sell almost all of your party's equipment (which could include high value items like Drizzt's Scimitars, Full Plate, the Dagger of Venom etc.) and then to steal it right back again. That alone could net you tens of thousands of gold before Cloakwood, which seems a little excessive.

I'm not sure how much self-restraint I have unless I impose some easy to interpret house rules, such as limiting the number of items I can steal from each store each day... This would focus stealing on small high-value items like rings , amulets, diamonds, sapphires etc. There's also the RP factor - could I really walk out of the store carrying two sets of full plate, and lots of other armour?

Wanderon

I guess you will just have to determine how stinky you are going to let your cheese get - my personal cheese meter runs pretty low most of the time - those potions all by themselves are pretty high on my cheese meter even if the game provides them and the way they can be abused like you are describing is one of the big reasons for it.

Then again I tend to keep potion use to healing potions and antidotes for the most part - I always "save" the magic blocking and all the other handy dandy potions until I "really need them" which of course turns out to always be the "next" big battle so by end game I have a barrel full of them (and wands) outside the Elfsong - LOL

Thus if it were me making the choices I'd probably limit myself to a single item at a time per day - that seems much more likely to always succeed which is what you have determined the potions allow you to do (always succeed).

I've never played PnP but for those who do I'm guessing a DM would be unlikely to allow much more than that or even allow an option at all that would give 100% success rate.

Oxford_Guy

Wanderon said:

I guess you will just have to determine how stinky you are going to let your cheese get - my personal cheese meter runs pretty low most of the time - those potions all by themselves are pretty high on my cheese meter even if the game provides them and the way they can be abused like you are describing is one of the big reasons for it.

Then again I tend to keep potion use to healing potions and antidotes for the most part - I always "save" the magic blocking and all the other handy dandy potions until I "really need them" which of course turns out to always be the "next" big battle so by end game I have a barrel full of them (and wands) outside the Elfsong - LOL

Thus if it were me making the choices I'd probably limit myself to a single item at a time per day - that seems much more likely to always succeed which is what you have determined the potions allow you to do (always succeed).

I've never played PnP but for those who do I'm guessing a DM would be unlikely to allow much more than that or even allow an option at all that would give 100% success rate.

Yes, I'm thinking something like that, or perhaps 2 small items (e.g. Prism's Emeralds...), or maybe 1 item per every 20 points (rounded down) of *innate* pick-pocketing skill/day/store.

KidCarnival

Exactly, the items worth recharging (once) are only worth recharging after you used up most charges. That needs timing and very careful planning in which fights you want to use them, and how far you'll get with the new charges after stealing the item back. Frankly, that's way too much micromanagement and metagaming to still be fun.

RP: Yes, you could get away stealing full plate. The stores have so little shelves, they can only have display items and the real stock is in a basement or warehouse. You can get away if you ask to see a full plate - shopkeep will go get you one (and there is one for display already in the store). Now you wear the full plate and say "oh, yes, I think I'll buy it... that large shield there, you have a similar one in green? I'd take that, too". The shopkeep goes to get a green shield from the basement - while you and a party member who grabbed the other full plate and "wrong color" large shield leave the store.
You'd need to park the rest of your party outside, and only have NPCs the shopkeep has not seen with you shop there later.

Maybe make a house rule that you can only steal as much as your weakest NPC can carry (or charname, if it's reasonably low - if you have 19 str, it's kinda pointless to use that as a limit, you can easily carry plate armor, 4 anhkeg shells and a few more things, and likely more than you can steal).

Oxford_Guy

KidCarnival said:

Exactly, the items worth recharging (once) are only worth recharging after you used up most charges. That needs timing and very careful planning in which fights you want to use them, and how far you'll get with the new charges after stealing the item back. Frankly, that's way too much micromanagement and metagaming to still be fun.

50 charges of Shield Amulet (plus the original 10) will see me through to the point where I can get the Elven Chain easily enough, there's also loads of Shield Scrolls to use too. Wands it's perhaps a bit trickier for, but many of these have two (or more) instances of them available, so you can just steal one of them and recharge the others by paying.

KidCarnival said:

RP: Yes, you could get away stealing full plate. The stores have so little shelves, they can only have display items and the real stock is in a basement or warehouse. You can get away if you ask to see a full plate - shopkeep will go get you one (and there is one for display already in the store). Now you wear the full plate and say "oh, yes, I think I'll buy it... that large shield there, you have a similar one in green? I'd take that, too". The shopkeep goes to get a green shield from the basement - while you and a party member who grabbed the other full plate and "wrong color" large shield leave the store.
You'd need to park the rest of your party outside, and only have NPCs the shopkeep has not seen with you shop there later.

Yes, I suppose that's valid - for *one* suit of armour at a time

KidCarnival said:

Maybe make a house rule that you can only steal as much as your weakest NPC can carry (or charname, if it's reasonably low - if you have 19 str, it's kinda pointless to use that as a limit, you can easily carry plate armor, 4 anhkeg shells and a few more things, and likely more than you can steal).

That's still alot! Especially if counting magic arrows...

I'm still thinking of allowing perhaps allowing 1 large item, or 2 small (daggers, gloves, jewellery etc.) size items (maybe 5 for arrows/bullets/bolts etc.) per store per day to be stolen. Maybe also linking how much you can steal to innate pick-pocketing still, as discussed above.

KidCarnival

Where are large quantities of magical ammo you can steal? Not in Nashkel, Beregost or High Hedge. And even if they don't weight much, they still take up inventory space. If you steal all arrows a store has, you may have weight left for an armor, but not space. (I'm thinking NPCs with a strength of 10 or lower - it's not THAT much, and certainly no full plate).

Wanderon

I like the idea of linking amounts to your skill level which then puts it back on the table (becuase the potions basicly take it off the table)

PugPug

Oxford_Guy said:

Also, it seems a little *wrong* to be able to shop lift a Suit of Full Plate Armour a +1 Large Shield or large two-handed weapons, for example - these could hardly be grabbed and hidden under clothing.

My RP assumption has always been that an adept shoplifter will know how to use misdirection, rather than concealment, to get away with carting these items off.

Anduin

I think a suspicious bonus should be added to the pickpocket difficulty of the store... Maybe +1% after each successful pickpocket at a store. Eventually the shopkeeper will really get worried each time you visit (I lost that emerald last time they visited... I got my eye on you!). The difficulty to pickpocket the store will eventually get so high that it will prevent successful robbery even with potions.

Would this meet your cleptomanic needs @oxford_guy ?

Oxford_Guy

Anduin said:

I think a suspicious bonus should be added to the pickpocket difficulty of the store... Maybe +1% after each successful pickpocket at a store. Eventually the shopkeeper will really get worried each time you visit (I lost that emerald last time they visited... I got my eye on you!). The difficulty to pickpocket the store will eventually get so high that it will prevent successful robbery even with potions.

Would this meet your cleptomanic needs @oxford_guy ?

Yes, I like that, but the Devs would need to implement this, can't be a house rule

Oxford_Guy

KidCarnival said:

Where are large quantities of magical ammo you can steal? Not in Nashkel, Beregost or High Hedge. And even if they don't weight much, they still take up inventory space. If you steal all arrows a store has, you may have weight left for an armor, but not space. (I'm thinking NPCs with a strength of 10 or lower - it's not THAT much, and certainly no full plate).

You can sell your magic arrows and steal them back...

KidCarnival

Unless your charname is Daryl Dixon and goes around pulling ammo out of dead enemies, you can do that exactly one time. It pays out even less because you can't sell again to Black Lily later.

Oxford_Guy

KidCarnival said:

Unless your charname is Daryl Dixon and goes around pulling ammo out of dead enemies, you can do that exactly one time. It pays out even less because you can't sell again to Black Lily later.

Yes but in theory at the moment the game would allow you to sell your entire inventory of magic ammo, then steal it back, you can still use it against enemies. Not that I would do this, I'm just saying...

KidCarnival

Yeah, in theory, you could. But it would still not be worth the trouble for me. Gold in general is rarely worth jumping through extra hoops. Maybe very early in the game, it's nice to have the Dagger of Venom or Shadow Armor or some magical ammo earlier, but most good items are loot and it's pointless to have tons of gold by the time you get to the bandit camp. Even without ankheg farming, you can afford the expensive items from Beregost from doing the sidequests and selling magical items your party doesn't use. I'm at a loss why you would need more gold. I spend so much on magical ammo - darts, bullets, arrows (and I doubt I could significantly increase my spending if I also bought bolts) - yet am nowhere near running out of gold. And I haven't started on the BG city quests nor have I done Durlag's; the only Ulgoth's Beard quest so far was Shandalar's and I could buy the good stuff from Ulgoth's with the gold I had when I arrived. My only "saving" as evil party is getting the arch magi robe for free, but if I had bought it for the price of the good/neutral robes, I would be far from broke either.

tl;dr: Do you really want/need a way to get more gold or is this a thought experiment a la "I do it because I can"?

bbear

Maybe impose a limit of gold each merchant carries. This way, you only steal what you need and dont make infinite gold. The merchants can replenish gold every 1 game week.

Oxford_Guy

bbear said:

Maybe impose a limit of gold each merchant carries. This way, you only steal what you need and dont make infinite gold. The merchants can replenish gold every 1 game week.

That doesn't really make sense, as you can't steal gold from them directly anyway...

Bigfish

I would argue just don't do it if you don't want to make gold trivial. After a certain point space and carrying weight becomes your limiting factor anyway.

Bottom line, the rewards aren't THAT great, and you face diminishing returns anyway.

WebShaman

I am pretty schocked here.

Am I the only one who takes into consideration that one has a bag of holding? Heck, stuff that big stuff in there! In fact, you do not have to "stuff your stuff" into the bag, you can pull the bag over it instead!

Easy way to get that armor, shield, and whatever else you want into it. Just get the shopkeeper distracted :

"Hello there, my good fellow, do you happen to have this sword with, say, a green hilt? Oh, yes, there is one behind you, hanging there, just practically shouting out to me! I must have it! Could you perhaps sell it to me?"

*shopkeeper turns to fetch said sword, and in a quick succession of movements, several sets of full plate, a large shield, several greatswords, etc disappear into the black maw of a bag*

"What was that noise?", inquires the shopkeeper as he turns back about, with the green-hilted sword in hand, eyebrows raised.

"Oh that! Just our Half-Orc, trying to scratch..." *leans in nearer, conspiratorially, whispers* "well, it is best not to mention this out loud" *glances respectfully towards the Half-Orc, who glares fiercely back*, but I believe he contracted...something, if you know what I mean, at the last house of pleasure that he visited. He has been, umm..scratching since then incessantly, ermmm...down there. Makes a most horrible racket it does, yes. Really a pain when fighting monsters, it is. Totally destroys the moment of surprise." *sad look*

So steal away!

KidCarnival

You have a GEM bag. You can only put non-magical jewelry and gems in it.