A Familiar Problem...

Anduin

I am putting forward a case for the fair nerfing of familiars in BG:EE.

I understand and agree with the need to nerf these fantastic creatures from the realms... They were overpowered. The few threads attesting to cats defeating the mage at FAI, Rabbits taking on and breathing fire onto hobgoblins showed that adventurers had begun to use familiars as frontline troops!

In BG:SoA and ToB familiars did one thing and one thing only. They stayed in your backpack. They gave your wizard extra hp.

In BG:EE for a few months they actually were allowed to wander the realms free from backpack enshacklement!

I wish to return these beasts to the open air of the sword coast! Give them a USE other than a strange wizard permanent hp raiser they are being reduced to again...

This is a very wordy thread. I have placed each familiar in its own spoiler tag. I have placed each familiar stats namely pre patch 2014 data, followed by current 2014 patch data and my OWN idea (this may change with input) of how they should be nerfed data, in each tag. All data has been found from threads given on these forums, so thanks to @jalily mostly for giving the input!

I would fully welcome your comments.

Please, let these wonderful wizardly creatures enjoy the open air, once again... (and no jokes on how we need to touch up the nerfed familiars @Oxford_Guy and @Bhaaldog . I'm watching you @_@ )



LAWFUL GOOD, NEUTRAL GOOD: Pseudo Dragon

LAWFUL GOOD, NEUTRAL GOOD: Pseudo Dragon
– Hit Points: 24
– Armor Class: -2
– Magic Resistance: 50%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 13 THAC0 for 1d3 Piercing+chance of Sleep
– Special Abilities: Can cast Blur once per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

Nerfed to...

LAWFUL GOOD, NEUTRAL GOOD: Pseudo Dragon
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 0
– Magic Resistance: 35%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d3 damage
– Special Abilities: Can cast Blur once per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

I suggest

LAWFUL GOOD, NEUTRAL GOOD: Pseudo Dragon
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 0
– Magic Resistance: 35%
– Combat: 1 attack per round at 13 THAC0 for 1d3 damage+chance of Sleep
– Special Abilities: Can cast Blur once per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

Comments
This a magical warrior familiar. It should have a magical bite. It's innate goodness would also mean that it should not want to kill opponents for it's master, unless it really had to... That is why I have lowered APR by one, reduced THACO by 2 so it has more of a chance to hit and re-included it's sleep on hit ability. (Two chances of hitting causing sleep would make it to powerful.)

After further input

LAWFUL GOOD, NEUTRAL GOOD: Pseudo Dragon
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 0
– Magic Resistance: 35%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 13 THAC0 for 1d3 damage+chance stun for 1 round (or sleep for 1 round)
– Special Abilities: Can cast Blur once per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

Comments
As suggested by @Oxford_Guy . Returned the 2 APR and given a chance for stun. (I would prefer sleep of 1 round for the sake of continuity but we are not sure this is possible)

LAWFUL NEUTRAL: Ferret

LAWFUL NEUTRAL: Ferret
– Hit Points: 24
– Armor Class: 0
– Magic Resistance: 50%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 17 THAC0 for 1d3 Slashing
– Special Abilities: Has 75% in Pick Pockets, 40% in Hide in Shadows/Move Silently, and 20% in Detect Traps. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

Nerfed to...

LAWFUL NEUTRAL: Ferret
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 2
– Magic Resistance: 35%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d3 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 75% in Pick Pockets, 25% in Hide in Shadows/Move Silently, and 20% in Detect Traps. Can cast Blur once per day. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

I suggest

LAWFUL NEUTRAL: Ferret
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 2
– Magic Resistance: 15%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d3 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 75% in Pick Pockets, 25% in Hide in Shadows/Move Silently, and 20% in Detect Traps. Can cast Blur once per day. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

Comments
This is a thieving familiar, and as an englishman a much loved pet. Ferrets are those excellent creatures your grandpa, or grandpa's friend would scare you witless with by lifting a trouser leg when you were young... A cuddly ferret appearing magically from a trouser leg to only disappear up the other one and reappearing at a cuff is MAGIC, but not magic enough for me to give it 35% immunity (so lowered below the Imps level). This is a thief that picks pockets, hence returning it to 75%. It's other skills are near useless.

LAWFUL EVIL: Imp

LAWFUL EVIL: Imp
– Hit Points: 18
– Armor Class: 2
– Magic Resistance: 25%
– Combat: 1 attack per round at 19 THAC0 for 1d6 Piercing+chance of Poison
– Special Abilities: Has 100% resistance to fire, cold, and electricity. Can cast Polymorph Self once per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round.

nerfed to...

LAWFUL EVIL: Imp
– Armor Class: 4
– Hit Points: 9
– Magic Resistance: 15%
– Combat: 1 attack per round at 17 THAC0 for 1d6 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 100% resistance to fire, cold, and electricity. Can cast Polymorph Self once per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round.

I suggest

LAWFUL EVIL: Imp
– Armor Class: 4
– Hit Points: 9
– Magic Resistance: 25%
– Combat: 1 attack per round at 19 THAC0 for 1d6 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 100% resistance to fire, cold, and electricity. Can cast Polymorph Self once per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round.

Comments
A wizardly familiar. Imps are magical, devious creatures that would prefer others do the work. Even if that means them wasting fireballs and other spells on them, that soak up, then once weakened they come in to finish the job. Magic means I have upped MR. Magic means poor fighting skills so lowered the THACO. They also have a powerful spell... They should be polymorphing for better THACO.

NEUTRAL: Rabbit

NEUTRAL: Rabbit
– Hit Points: 24
– Armor Class: 1
– Magic Resistance: 65%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 17 THAC0 for 1d2 slashing
– Special Abilities: Has 20% in Move Silently/Hide In Shadows. Has 75% resistance to fire, cold, and electricity. 50% Find Traps.

nerfed to...

NEUTRAL: Rabbit
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 3
– Magic Resistance: 45%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d2 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 20% in Move Silently/Hide In Shadows and 40% in Find Traps. Has 75% resistance to fire, cold, and electricity.

I suggest

NEUTRAL: Rabbit
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 3
– Magic Resistance: 45%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d2 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 20% in Move Silently/Hide In Shadows and 50% in Find Traps. Has 75% resistance to fire, cold, and electricity.

Comments
Another thief familiar. Put the 50% in find traps back so that adventures will lose slightly the temptation to eat it. The kind of creature regularly pulled out of hats, so MR is okay to me. I think movement speed is what should really boost the rabbits like ability as a familiar... It should move far faster than it's wizardly owner...

NEUTRAL EVIL: Dust Mephit

NEUTRAL EVIL: Dust Mephit
– Hit Points: 24
– Armor Class: 6
– Magic Resistance: 10%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 17 THAC0 for 1D2+1 Slashing
– Special Abilities: Has 100% resistance to fire and 50% Slashing/Piercing/Missile. Can cast Glitterdust 1x/day & Glass Dust 2x/day. Regenerates 1hp/round.. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

nerfed to...

NEUTRAL EVIL: Dust Mephit
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 8
– Magic Resistance: 10%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d2 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 100% resistance to fire and 35% resistance to slashing, piercing, and missile damage. Can cast Glass Dust twice per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

I suggest

NEUTRAL EVIL: Dust Mephit
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 8
– Magic Resistance: 10%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d2 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 100% resistance to fire and 35% resistance to slashing, piercing, and missile damage. Can cast Glass Dust twice per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

Comments
Warrior or wizard familiar? I have kept the same... It appears to be unnerfed with the THACO improvement. The loss of one spell cast is not so bad...

CHAOTIC GOOD: Fairy Dragon

CHAOTIC GOOD: Fairy Dragon
– Hit Points: 24
– Armor Class: 4
– Magic Resistance: 32%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 17 THAC0 for 1d2 Slashing
– Special Abilities: Can cast Mirror Image and Invisibility 10' Radius, each 1x/day. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

nerfed to

CHAOTIC GOOD: Fairy Dragon
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 6
– Magic Resistance: 25%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d2 damage
– Special Abilities: Can cast Mirror Image once per day. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

I suggest

CHAOTIC GOOD: Fairy Dragon
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 6
– Magic Resistance: 25%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d2 damage
– Special Abilities: Can cast Invisibility and reflected image. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

Comments
A thiefy through magic familiar. The mirror image gave it little extra staying power as it is so easy to hit. You could cast mirror image and have a gamble, setting off traps and hoping they hit an image but why risk losing 1 con PERMANENTLY! It is a weak familiar because it had a good spell selection. However invisibilty raduis of 10 is gone... I say if an imp keeps polymorph, then let it's opposite the fairy keep invisibility. Return it!

After a return to normality and a comment from @oxford_guy . take away the invisibility radius with invisibility and put in reflected image... This would mean the dragons spells will appear to have grown stronger on starting SoA

CHAOTIC NEUTRAL: Cat

CHAOTIC NEUTRAL: Cat
– Hit Points: 24
– Armor Class: 0
– Magic Resistance: 50%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 17 THAC0 for 1d3 Slashing
– Special Abilities: Has 30% in Pick Pockets and 99% in Move Silently/Hide In Shadows. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

nerfed to

CHAOTIC NEUTRAL: Cat
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 2
– Magic Resistance: 35%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d3 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 15% in Pick Pockets and 65% in Move Silently/Hide In Shadows. Can cast Blur once per day. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

I suggest

CHAOTIC NEUTRAL: Cat
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 2
– Magic Resistance: 25%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d3 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 0% in Pick Pockets and 99% in Move Silently/Hide In Shadows. Can cast Blur once per day. Immune to level drain, sleep, and petrification.

Comments
A stealthy familiar. Let it be stealthy once again! (Lowered MR and pick pocket ability to keep it nerfed. Of course this is all conjecture as IT NEEDS TO WALK AT THE SAME SPEED AS ITS MASTER! Untie the string around the cats legs, you dastardly dog lovers at Overhaul, UNTIE THE STRING! @Oxford_Guy suggests 66% but I think the vote is out on this one...

CHAOTIC EVIL: Quasit

CHAOTIC EVIL: Quasit
– Hit Points: 24
– Armor Class: 2
– Magic Resistance: 25%
– Combat: 3 attacks per round at 17 THAC0 for 1d6 Slashing
– Special Abilities: Has 100% resistance to fire, cold, and electricity. Can cast Blur & Horror each 1x/day. Regenerates 1hp/round.

nerfed to...

CHAOTIC EVIL: Quasit
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 4
– Magic Resistance: 15%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d6 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 100% resistance to fire, cold, and electricity. Can cast Horror once per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round.

I suggest

CHAOTIC EVIL: Quasit
– Hit Points: 12
– Armor Class: 4
– Magic Resistance: 15%
– Combat: 2 attacks per round at 15 THAC0 for 1d4 damage
– Special Abilities: Has 100% resistance to fire, cold, and electricity. Can cast Horror once per day. Regenerates 1 HP/round.

Comments
A warrior familiar. Keep the same. This familiar can hit harder than a pseudo dragon... (have you noticed it's opposite alignment wise again?). It has had it's THACO reduced and looks pretty mean and tough already. Lowere damage to 1d4

All for Pufty, my own familiar. May we travel together, always.

Oxford_Guy

Some interesting suggestions, I'll try to digest what you've proposed and let you know what I think. The cat definitely needs to be given normal walking speed, though! :-)

The cat is also currently bugged and doesn't actually get Blur, but apparent that's being fixed.

I sill think the Quasit is a little OP and I don't think the Fairy Dragon should have Invisibility 10' Radius in BGEE, maybe just normal Invisibility, though.

Zarakinthish

Once you guys lock down your final ideas of how you'd like familiars to be, I'm more than willing to try and create them for you.

Bigfish

Not reading the whole thing, but I'm going to toss in my 2 cents and say I'm rather opposed to all the nerfs they are throwing in. If people want to play an overpowered class, let them. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say "This game is too easy". Not that the game is hard, either, but the difficulty seems to arise from all the save-or-suck effects and being able to recognize dangerous parts of a dungeon. If anything, the nerfing of various classes and abilities just sort of relegates them to the uselessness they see in BG2.

SpaceInvader

Only Sorcerous Amon's Pooky is allowed to be a cool familiar...

BTW, I agree to make them useful again.

Lemernis

I like the fact that familiars can now make their way out of the backpack, actually.

Oxford_Guy

Bigfish said:

Not reading the whole thing, but I'm going to toss in my 2 cents and say I'm rather opposed to all the nerfs they are throwing in. If people want to play an overpowered class, let them. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say "This game is too easy". Not that the game is hard, either, but the difficulty seems to arise from all the save-or-suck effects and being able to recognize dangerous parts of a dungeon. If anything, the nerfing of various classes and abilities just sort of relegates them to the uselessness they see in BG2.

The issue with the Familiars before they were "nerfed" is that they were never meant for BG1, they were intended for SoA and were not present in BG1 before BGEE. In BGEE they were clearly OP, which made many people feel uncomfortable able using them. I think they could still do with a little tweaking, but on the whole support the changes the Devs made, as it no longer feels cheesy to use them.

Anduin

Just invisibility for fairy dragon? That is less controversial... Input accepted and put into suggested changes @oxford_guy . I think that would mean that the familiars spell power obviously gets stronger by SoA...

I really shouldn't suggest anything for fairy dragons as it is my familiar of choice... I would end up giving it laser beam eyes, titanium armoured scales and acid breath attacks.

Oxford_Guy

For the Pseudo dragon, instead of chance of sleep, I think someting like chance of stun for a round (maybe more) would be more fitting for BGEE.

Ferret - I would still reduce pickpockets, buy maybe just to 65%. This can still pickpocket some minor NPCs, less than that and it's pretty pointless

Cat - I think 65% move silently is fine, as long as it's speed is increased to normal walking speed, so it can run away from trouble if detected, otherwise it's dead meat. I've been using a modded speed cat (also with fixed Blur) and 65% in stealth is fine when scouting at night. The pickpockets skill is pretty irrelevent - no one is going to attempt it at 15%, so it might as well not be there

Imp - would be happy to see this nerfed a little from current state, is very powerful in attack, though with only 9HP is quite fragile

Rabbit - 50% find traps sounds reasonable

Dust Mephit - fine to leave as it, much as I love Glitterdust (especially for Jesters), 2x Glass Dust isn't bad

Quasit - I suggest nerfing this further, with Horror it's already pretty powerful, maybe reduce attacks to 1d3 or 1d4

Edit: corrected some typos

Anduin

Thank you for the sensible input @Oxford_Guy

I was trying to match powers up with SoA. Do you think this should be abandoned?

With the Pseudo Dragon, can it be given it's own version of sleep that effects the target for one round only for example? The ability to stun, would be an entirely new ability, and would not progress to the next level.

Oxford_Guy

Anduin said:

Thank you for the sensible input @Oxford_Guy

I was trying to match powers up with SoA. Do you think this should be abandoned?

Yes IMHO

Anduin said:

With the Pseudo Dragon, can it be given it's own version of sleep that effects the target for one round only for example? The ability to stun, would be an entirely new ability, and would not progress to the next level.

I don't know, but that would be nice

SpaceInvader

They should really take in consideration to create the spell Improved Find Familiar for BG2:EE.
I always wanted to have a snake pet for my Neutral Evil sorcerer. So I could order it to bite to death that puny little mage, Harry Pott...*emh* Jon Irenicus!!!

Oxford_Guy

SpaceInvader said:

They should really take in consideration to create the spell Improved Find Familiar for BG2:EE.
I always wanted to have a snake pet for my Neutral Evil sorcerer. So I could order it to bite to death that puny little mage, Harry Pott...*emh* Jon Irenicus!!!

A trusty Dog familiar would be quite cool, though I'm not sure how they'd implement the "Fetch" ability :-)

Zarakinthish

Personally, my favorite familiar when I played with a group was an owl.

Kamigoroshi

That Halfling familiar of Xzar is rather cute. I wonder where he got it?

Anduin

Oxford_Guy said:

For the Pseudo dragon, instead of chance of sleep, I think someting like chance of stun for a round (maybe more) would be more fitting for BGEE.

Changed with notes on whether a low level sleep can be implemented.

Oxford_Guy said:

Ferret - I would still reduce pickpockets, buy maybe just to 65%. This can still pickpocket some minor NPCs, less than that and it's pretty pointless

Going to argue with a user friendly 3/4 --> 75%

Oxford_Guy said:

Cat - I think 65% move silently is fine, as long as it's speed is increased to normal walking speed, so it can run away from trouble if detected, otherwise it's dead meat. I've been using a modded speed cat (also with fixed Blur) and 65% in stealth is fine when scouting at night. The pickpockets skill is pretty irrelevent - no one is going to attempt it at 15%, so it might as well not be there

Agree. Remember this jumps to 99% so perhaps a 66% so it goes in thirds? (I like continuity...)

Oxford_Guy said:

Imp - would be happy to see this nerfed a little from current state, is very powerful in attack, though with only 9HP is quite fragile

Yes. I was tempted by this. I did lower the THAC0 on the suggested so he would not hit, but nerf him further.

Oxford_Guy said:

Rabbit - 50% find traps sounds reasonable

Should we up it? Remember this all conjecture... How many traps in the whole game will the damn fluffball be able to actually disarm?

Oxford_Guy said:

Dust Mephit - fine to leave as it, much as I love Glitterdust (especially for Jesters), 2x Glass Dust isn't bad.

Oxford_Guy said:

Quasit - I suggest nerfing this further, with Horror it's already pretty powerful, maybe reduce attacks to 1d3 or 1d4

Cool. I think 1D4. Great ideas @Oxford_Guy

All input welcomed Will update the data over the weekend.

valamyr

The suggestions are good.

Something else needs to be fixed; now when you speak to your familiar at full health and asks it how its doing, it whines that its hurt and the cuts sting even at fullhp, because the dialogue triggers still expects them to have 18-24hp instead of 9-12hp.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

valamyr

Of course it is.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Drusyc

@Anduin, for the Pseudo dragon, give it a chance on hit to cast Command, if it's coded to be possible. That could be a solution for a 1 round sleep.

The_Shairs_Handbook

Well if we nerf our Familiars I say then we should also give them at least one benefit... like when they die you don't lose con... so that you can reuse them again....
just saying....
Still i like the game familiar as they are now (love my cute Pseudodragon.... just look how badass it does look in 3rd edition era of dnd

Oxford_Guy

Bhaaldog said:

valamyr said:

The suggestions are good.

Something else needs to be fixed; now when you speak to your familiar at full health and asks it how its doing, it whines that its hurt and the cuts sting even at fullhp, because the dialogue triggers still expects them to have 18-24hp instead of 9-12hp.

I have noticed this behaviour as well. Is this a bug?

It's a bug and has already been reported and dealt with

Anduin

valamyr said:

Something else needs to be fixed; now when you speak to your familiar at full health and asks it how its doing, it whines that its hurt and the cuts sting even at fullhp, because the dialogue triggers still expects them to have 18-24hp instead of 9-12hp.

@valamyr Have you made a bug report? The bug finder should get the glory of posting it in the BG:EE bug forum.

Bhaaldog said:

@Anduin In the grand scheme of things I am somewhat surprised they actually decided to touch familiars or "nerf" them as you put it, given their limited use and that mages are generally weak in BG1 as it is. For a new player using a familiar can become a large liability unless they keep it in their backpack throughout the game.

Instead of playing around with familiars why not for example increase the difficulty of the final fight with Sarevok?

@Bhaaldog The problem with the Find Familiar spell is that it makes mages at low levels quite powerful. Pre patch 2014, mages had a quite powerful bodyguard / shield to hide behind whilst casting spells. Yes they still would become eventually redundant, but they actually had a use. A use. A use beyond some extra hp!

The idea of making the game harder, especially the final battle, is better left to wizened sages... At present the ideas around game difficulty is a puddle of murky controversy coalesced in a blender powered by its own nuclear power station.

valamyr

@Anduin Okay, I have now submitted a formal report in the appropriate subforum

Anduin

Okay. This thread has been quiet for a while. Going to humbly submit a feature request with cap in hand and beg for a little less hackery and a little more subtle carving to the nerfing of the familiars...

Any last changes?

dstoltzfus

How about they have some sort of level progression? I don't mean anything OP, just something like more hp or thac0? I mean my mage/fighter's pseudo dragon will have 12 hp for the *whole game*. Basically, if they are to have any use past chapter 1 (and that is even a stretch) besides the extra hp, it has to not risk getting one-shot.

I really just want my little companion to travel around with me outside my pack and not have to risk annihilation from gibberlings at level 7