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Things that makes me wonder!?!?!?!

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  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Again, the problem isn't that they had to die, but that it's specifically the very few "foreign-looking" NPCs. There's 3 (4 if you count Viconia) such NPCs among the what, almost 40 available NPCs in both games. And of 2 of those 3 are among the 3 characters who die for the plot?

    Why did they have to be the "foreign" ones, that's the question. Why wasn't someone else a foreigner? Like, I don't know, Edwin. Why isn't he Asian, or Black, or whatever? Why not more people, for that matter? Even accounting for the predominance of "Caucasian-looking" people in Tethyr and Amn, you have almost 40 NPCs to work with. Surely you could have made more of them of different ethnicity, not necessarily by changing their game race, but at least their appearance? Take Valygar, for example - for the game it doesn't matter that he's black, but it's just something else for a change. Instead, every char is a white guy or girl, as bland as it gets. And the ones that aren't, are the ones that get killed.

    Again, it doesn't matter so much that the ones that get killed are foreigners in the GAME; but of the 3 characters that don't obviously LOOK Caucasian VISUALLY, 2 are among the very few casualties of the game. It's the red shirt of Baldur's Gate - If you ain't white, you gon' die, son. You gon' die.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Edwin isn't white, he's... arab or middle eastern or simply Thayan, and the incredibly gimped color palette translates this badly. Same for other NPCs that aren't so white that light shines through them - have you looked at the skin color options? It's "sorta-caucasian" or "drow", between that, varying shades of "something that is fine on the light/dark scale, but has a distinct yellow tint for some reason", and blue. (Yes, I'm on a "give us the awesome color palette you get in Shadowkeeper" crusade.) That's why many NPCs look white/caucasian, so they seem to be the majority. Then, you have a ton of NPCs who aren't even human, so you can't slap a race label on them.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212

    Edwin isn't white, he's... arab or middle eastern or simply Thayan, and the incredibly gimped color palette translates this badly. Same for other NPCs that aren't so white that light shines through them - have you looked at the skin color options? It's "sorta-caucasian" or "drow", between that, varying shades of "something that is fine on the light/dark scale, but has a distinct yellow tint for some reason", and blue. (Yes, I'm on a "give us the awesome color palette you get in Shadowkeeper" crusade.) That's why many NPCs look white/caucasian, so they seem to be the majority. Then, you have a ton of NPCs who aren't even human, so you can't slap a race label on them.

    In-game character colors are one thing, but the most significant visual clue is the portrait; and there's a distinctive trend there. That's beyond any and all in-game distinctions, but purely a (conscious?) design choice. And that's really the thing people have a problem with, not the in-game rationale.

    Also, I'm not an expert on DnD race lore, but are there really no variations at all among non-humans? Seems a bit weird, doesn't it? Surely there could be a darker-skinned elf without it automatically being a drow? And that's not even going into the whole "dark skin = evil" thing...
  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    edited March 2013
    Most likely the great number of white characters has to do with the char portraits being painted versions of actual Bioware employees, who seem to have been white in the majority. I don't think this is some sort of covert racism or anything, it's just that they pictured who they had available.

    It's different in BG2, but from my point of view the portraits there are harder to put into a particular race category as everything looks much more fantasy-ish.

    D&D/Forgotten Realms of course allow for pretty much everything, even bronzed elves (who are still very distinct from the obsidian drow, whose skin colour isn't "black" in our real-world sense), or black dwarves. In fact, in the sourcebooks there's loads of people of all ethnicities. However, seeing as the game takes place in a part of Faerun where people are described to look quite European, and remembering that long-distance travel isn't exactly a widespread pastime in the Realms, you might understand why there's mainly white NPCs - especially with the above-mentioned explanation about the portraits.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552

    And that's not even going into the whole "dark skin = evil" thing...

    Here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dökkálfar
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svartálfar

    Now do your reading including the Prose Edda, some works of the brothers Grimm and the Silmarillion, so you can see the context and creation of these themes, before you start screaming racism.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    What @The_New_Romance said - the portraits are based on the Bioware employees. Some, if not most, got a very different portrait in BG2, including racelifts (Jaheira looking by far more elvish, for example). It is beyond me why Edwin looks even less Thayan than the BG1 portrait (i.e. no facial hair, bald, tattooes) though.

    About the "WHY OH WHY DID THE NON-CAUCASIAN NPCS HAVE TO DIE?!" - I'm not sure that BG2 and all it's details were already written in stone when the work on BG1 started. It's more likely that Dynaheir was created with a backstory and matching look, and when BG2 came around, it just happened to be the NPC in the position to die and trigger the change in Minsc (who is much more iconic and hence had dibs on survival). Same with Khalid - with romance quests and a male target audience, it was a simple popularity thing to let Jaheira live and become a romance option. Had Khalid not been written as her husband, he may have lived. It wasn't about their race, it was about what was neccessary for the story and the development of Minsc and Jaheira.
    Valgyar was planned to be a romance option for female charnames, it just fell victim to deadlines (same as Haer'Dalis and you really can't pull the race card on him). Valygar would have been a black guy who isn't whoring around, a stereotype or fetish or anything. The will to include such a character was there, just the time to do it wasn't.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013
    First of all when i wrote this.. it was things that made me wonder why or... why didnt they think about it and why are they not using the other human races of Abeir-toril and so on there is many thing I think about... anyway I MUST SAY THIS ONES Abeir-toril (were the game Baldur's gate take place in) Are not Tolken and it's not inspired.. it all started with Ed Greenwood and his love for King Arthur and the Knight of the round table and he created the dales and Cormyr.. the rest of the world grew from that and he took inspiration from our world.

    and for you all people who wonder about the human races of Abeir-toril here comes a list (yes i'm a very old Abeir-toril player and DM I know almost everything there is to know from 2nd edtion of DnD to 4th edition).

    Human Race of Abeir-toril

    *Calishite is the name given to the majority of humans who come from Calimshan. " Calimite" is a deeply insulting name for these people.
    Regions: Though Calishites have migrated outside the realm of Calimshan. Calishites make up the bulk of the population in the following areas
    The Border Kingdoms
    The cities of the Lake of Steam
    The Nelanther Isles
    Calimshan
    Calishites are also a major ethic group in the nations of Amn and Tethyr and can be found in smaller numbers in Lapaliiya and the Shaar.
    Appearance
    Calishites usually have dusky brown skin, brown hair and brown eyes. They are also on average a little shorter and of slighter build than the average human.
    History
    Calishites are descendants of the slaves of the genies who ruled great empires south of the Marching Mountains and are not native to Abeir-Toril. After the Calim's power dwindled, the Calishites were able to free themselves of the genies' yoke and founded the nation of Coramshan in 606 DR. Since this time the Calishite race has expanded and migrated to the various regions listed above.
    Culture
    The pervaiding Calishite view is they are the rightful rulers of all the land south and west of the Sea of Fallen Stars.They have a tendency to look on the northern cultures as being short-lived barbarian cultures barely worthy of notice. This, however, does not prevent them from trading with these nations.


    *Chondathans: were one of the more common human ethnicities.
    Regions
    Chondathans made up the bulk of the population in the following areas:Altumbel,Chondath,Cormyr,The Southern Dalelands, The Dragon Coast, The Great Dale, Hlondeth, The northern shore of the Vilhon Reach
    The Pirate Isles of the Inner Sea, Sembia, Sespech
    Chondathan culture had a major influence on Damaran, Vaasan, and Tethyrian heritage.
    Appearance
    Chondathans were usually slender with tawny skin and brown hair. They were often tall with green or brown eyes.


    *Illuskan: is the name usually given to a human who comes from the Sword Coast North. They are also known as Northlanders. Illuskans make up the bulk of the population in the following areas:
    The Sword Coast North
    The Trackless Sea
    The Dessarin river valley
    The Uthgardt tribes
    Physical description
    Illuskans are tall, fair skinned people. Most have blue or steel gray eyes. Those living on the islands in the Trackless Sea and Icewind Dale have more blonde hair, and slightly less red and brown. Those in the Sword Coast North and surrounding lands have more raven black hair, from their significant Netherese heritage.


    *The Mulan: are a human ethnic group non-native to Toril (PlaneTravelers).
    The Mulan are distinguished by the shaving of the head of both genders and flowing body and cranial tattoos that indicate an individual's social status, education, sect amid the Red Wizards of Thay and specialized school of magic (the latter two pertaining only to the Mulan of Thay).
    Regions
    The Mulan dominate the demographics of Mulhorand, Unther and Semphar. They are the ruling class of Thay and are also present as a sizable population in Chesenta.
    Culture: Mulan culture is heavily stratified into castes. Non-mulan ethnic groups such as the Turami and Rashemi are considered an underclass and openly despised in Unther. Slavery is common and almost universally accepted in Mulan lands. Mulan slave traders can be found as far away as Calimshan and amid the Tuigan tribes of the Endless Wastes.
    Religions:
    Mulhorandi pantheon
    Untheric pantheon and the Godking Gilgeam
    Tiamat: Chromatic draconic deity.
    Kossuth: Elemental deity of fire.
    Brief History:
    The Mulan were first brought to Toril by the Imaskar Empire as slaves from another world. Years of fervent prayers were finally answered when avatars of the Mulan gods (Egyptian Gods) were able to breach the wards created by the Imaskari and liberate their people. Where once the Imaskari Empire stood millenia ago, now stand the 'old empires' of Mulhorand and Unther.
    Thay, a breakaway state of Mulhorand, formed under the leadership of a cabal known as the Red Wizards, who rule there to the present day.

    *The Arkaiun: are a human ethnic group residing primarily in Dambrath but also in Halruaa and the Shaar. Arkaiun culture was formed through the interbreeding of Nar refugees from Shandaular and Illuskan tribes. The Dambrathan Arkaiuns live as servitors of the half-drow Crinti.
    Society: Arkaiuns living in Dambrath are considered second-class citizens and often work at manual labor. Outside Dambrath some traditional Arkaiuns continue to live a nomadic lifestyle.

    *Gur: Also known as “Selûne’s Children” or “the people of the highway”, the Gurs live in nomadic societies throughout the Western Heartlands, although a few have settled in some of the poorer sections of cities such as Baldur’s Gate, Elturel, and Iriaebor
    Culture
    Gurs are notable for their large extended families which go from settlement to settlement in caravans picking up random jobs and selling or trading any unwanted goods. Gurs are often gifted oracles and known for their talent in soothsaying and divining. Gur culture places a high value on honor.
    Religion
    The Gurs mainly follow Selûne, but they have also been known to worship Savras, which may explain the survival of his faith during his long period of imprisonment.
    Language
    Within their own tribes, the Gurs speak Gurri, a creole tongue with roots in Imaskari, but with influence from many other tongues, including many thought long-dead, in particular the Rashemi language. They are also proficient in Chondathan which they use when communicating with those outside of their culture.
    The Gurs use the Thorass alphabet.

    History
    The Gurs are believed to be mainly of Rashemi descent due to their strong similarity with the natives of Rashemen. Fragments of lore originating from the period around the first century Dale Reckoning can be found which mention the Gurs as a group of nomads. What is known of the early Gurs suggests that they were refugees fleeing a long ago war between Raumathar and Narfell.

    *The Imaskari: were the citizens of Imaskar, the ancient empire now swallowed by the Raurin Desert and the Plains of Purple Dust. Today they are vilified by the Mulan, who are the descendants of the slaves the Imaskari artificers abducted from other worlds using the mighty portals they crafted.
    Distribution
    At its height, the Imaskari Empire stretched from the Endless Wastes to the Golden Water, and from the Alamber Sea to the edge of what is now Kara-Tur. Ruins of their cities can still be found on the Plains of Purple Dust.
    Language
    The Imaskari spoke Roushoum, a precursor of such languages as Durpari, the Rauric family (including Chessentan, Mulhorani, and Untheric), Raumvira, and the various dialects of the Tuigan. The Imaskari alphabet has completely fallen out of contemporary use; it is only found inscribed on a few ancient artifacts and the walls of Imaskari ruins.
    The Imaskar in the modern age:
    The descendants of Imaskar live on as the Deep Imaskari, a sub-species of human who make their home in the Underdark realm of Deep Imaskar and the new empire of High Imaskar.

    *The Lantanna: are humans who inhabit the isles of Lantan, Suj, and Orlil off the northwest coast of the Chultan peninsula. Known for their large green eyes, copper hair, and parchment-colored skin, the Lantanna are rarely encountered outside their native isles except aboard merchant ships. They trade along the shores of the Trackless Sea as far north as Neverwinter, the Shining Sea as far east as Lapaliiya, and the Great Sea as far east as Halruaa.
    The homeland of most Lantanna is the nation of Lantan, named for the largest island it claims.
    Speakers of Lantanese, the Lantanna employ the Draconic alphabet used by most cultures descended from Netheril. As the Lantanna are not believed to be in any way descended from ancient Netheril, some scholars suspect that early Halruaan or Nimbrali traders introduced this alphabet to the Lantanna. The state religion of Lantan is the faith of Gond, and many believe that the Lantanna introduced the Wondermaker into the Faerûnian pantheon.

    *Maztica (American Indians people) was a far-off land lying west of Faerûn, beyond even fabled Evermeet. Tethyrian explorers from Amn had discovered Maztica just over a decade prior, and Maztican immigrants were then found in very small numbers in Amn, Baldur's Gate, and Waterdeep. Faerûnians lumped all inhabitants of Maztica into one group, but in truth there were seven known human ethnicities in that land: the Azuposi, the Dog People, the Green Folk, the Metahel, the Nahopaca, the Nexalans, and the Payits. The Nexalans were the only group to have journeyed east to Faerûn, so all Faerûn-dwelling Mazticans were speakers of Nexalan, the language of the nations of Pezelac, Huacli, Kultaka, and Nexal. The Nexalan tongue was written using the Draconic alphabet. Nexalans were relatively tall, with long, lean physiques and beardless, angular faces. Nexalans were generally reddish-bronze of hue.

    *Raumviran: Descended from the inhabitants of the great empire of Raumathar, the Raumvirans retain little of their former glory. Their history is described under the Damaran and Rashemi ethnic groups. In the present day, Raumvirans are concentrated along the shores of the Lake of Mists and the city of Almorel. Physically, Raumvirans bear a close resemblance to the Rashemi, indicative of centuries of close ties between the two groups. Although taller on average than their western neighbors, the Raumvirans are also generally stout and muscular, with dark eyes and thick black hair. Raumvirans are generally of lighter hue than the Rashemi, evidence of significant Sossrim heritage dating back to the height of their long-fallen empire. Members of this ethnic group speak Raumvira, a tongue closely related to Rashemi, Dwarven, and a northern dialect of Imaskari. Raumvirans employ an alphabet of Dethek runes taught to them before the founding of Raumathar by the Siremun dwarves of the Firepeaks, a range of mountains to the east of the Lake of Mists.



    *The Shou: are humans originally from the Empire of Shou Lung in the eastern lands of Kara-Tur. In recent years (as of 1360 DR), many Shou have migrated to Thesk and other lands of Faerûn. Many cities, such as Phsant, Telflamm, and Westgate, now have "Shou Town" districts within their walls, and the Shou nation of Nathlan in the Dragon Coast was founded in the aftermath of the Spellplague. The Shou language, High Shou, uses the Draconic alphabet.
    Appearance:
    Shou have yellowish-bronze skin, black hair, and broad, flat features.

    *Talfir: Elven writings dating back to the Crown Wars mention a dark-haired, fair-skinned human tribe in the heart of the great forest of Shantel Othreier. The Talfir were the original human inhabitants of the Chionthar river valley in the Western Heartlands. Speakers of Talfiric, a long-lost human tongue based on the Draconic alphabet, the Talfir gradually disappeared over a thousand years ago, their culture overwhelmed by refugees from Low Netheril, Calishite settlers from the south, and Chondathan settlers from the Dragon Coast. Several deities of the Faerûnian pantheon are believed to have first been worshiped by the Talfir, including Tempus, who vanquished the Netherese god of war. The Talfir left little in the way of ruins or artifacts, although Irieabor lies atop the ancient crypt of the Talfir monarch known as Verraketh the Shadowking, who mastered shadow magic. Talis, a ruined city of the Talfir, lies in ruins along the banks of the River Reaching in the depths of the Reaching Woods.

    *The Tuigan (Based somewhat on conan the barbarian and the monguls race of earth): were Humans from Taan, also known as the Endless Wastes, the vast steppes that stretched between Faerûn and Kara-Tur.

    History
    In 1358 DR, the Tuigan tribes united under Horselord Yamun Khahan. Under his banner they invaded the nations of Semphar, Khazari, Shou Lung, Thay, Rashemen, and Thesk. They were defeated at Phsant in 1360 DR by King Azoun IV of Cormyr leading an alliance of nations throughout Faerûn.
    Appearance
    Tuigans had yellowish-bronze skin with black hair and broad, flat features.
    Culture:
    They were organized by tribes. The name "Tuigan" was actually the name of one of the major tribes. They were closely related to the inhabitants of Kara-Tur. The tribes spoke Tuigan and used the Thorass alphabet. Tuigans could also be found in Semphar, Thay, Thesk, Narfell, and Rashemen.
    In summer, Tuigan men enjoyed hunting snow-beasts in the mountains.

    The Tuigan mostly ate meat, and vegetables were almost unknown amongst them. Kumiss was a common alcoholic beverage. Many in Faerûn falsely believed that Tuigans ate insects.

    *The Ulutiuns: were a human ethnic type.
    Although the Ulutiuns had long inhabited the polar reaches of Faerûn, these short, dark-haired, broad-faced humans with lightbrown skin were actually migrants from the northern reaches of Kara-Tur, who moved westward across the polar icecap millennia before 1372 DR

    *Damarans (My personal Favorite human race of Abeir-toril): Proud and stubborn, these humans were born from some scattered remnants of Narfell's fall - primarily groups of Nars, Rashemis, and Sossrims who struggled to survive, while waves of Chondathan emigrants settled in the lands of the Easting Reach. These four populations gradually coalesced into a new ethnic group that now makes up the primary racial stock of Damara, Impiltur, Thesk, and the Vast. Damarans are of moderate height and build, with skin hues ranging from tawny to fair. Their hair is usually brown or black, and their eye color varies widely, though brown is most common. Damarans see the world in stark contrasts - unspeakable evil (often stemming from the hubris of long-fallen empires) opposed by indomitable and uncompromising good. Most Damarans are farmers; loggers, or miners in a harsh and unforgiving land.
    Region: a human ethnicity populating the coast of the Golden Water, including Durpar, Estagund, and Var the Golden. They also comprised significant minorities in Mulhorand, Murghôm, Semphar (Love this country), and the Shaar as late as the 14th century DR. They were somewhat short and swarthy and followed the Adama

    *Tethyrians: The Tethyrian culture is a melting pot of Calishite, Chondathan, Illuskan, and Low Netherese elements. This unique background makes Tethyrians among the most tolerant, though fiercely independent, ethnic groups in Faerûn. They inhabit a vast territory stretching from Calimshan to Silverymoon, and from the Sea of Swords to the Sea of Fallen Stars. Tethyrians are of medium build and height, with dusky skin that grows fairer the farther north they dwell. Their hair and eye color varies widely, but brown hair and blue eyes are the most common. Tethyrians are proud of their diverse heritage and protective of their freedom, so they tend to distrust powerful kingdoms and empires.

    *Rashemis: These humans are tough, sturdy, and well adapted to life in the harsh and dangerous northeastern reaches of Faerûn. They are descended from the nomadic tribes that won the Oregate Wars and built the empire of Raumathar. Not only do Rashemis dominate Rashemen and Thay, they also form significant minorities in Aglarond, the Endless Wastes, Thesk, and the Wizards' Reach region. Rashemis tend to be short, stout, and muscular, and they usually have dusky skin, dark eyes, and thick, black hair. They cherish their strong ties to their land, appreciating its beauty while respecting its harshness. They display little of the arrogance that marks other groups whose ancestors once ruled empires.


    As you see there are aloooooooooot of diffrient kind of diffrent human skin coloured, ethnicity and culture that reminds us of our world.. what you can find on earth you can find it's mirrored fantasy version in Abeir-toril (and thank god Abeir-toril is NOT another Tolken inspired world). the biggest question mark here are were are those other races in the game???.. I can mostly understand that most of them are not from that region bu. but hey sailors and adventurer go everywere it pleases them...

    By the way didn't that Indian Druid Cernd in BG2 also die( if i remember it he had a cool and very violent dramatic ending... he died i think)????

    I will post it again the map of Abeir-toril here if you guys want to look at the countries of diffrient human races
  • OneAngryMushroomOneAngryMushroom Member Posts: 564
    Can we stop arguing about racism and stuff and just enjoy the characters for what they are.
    And your a child of an evil murder god you can break whatever aging rules you want.
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