Things that makes me wonder!?!?!?!
The_Shairs_Handbook
Member Posts: 219
Have you ever wonder about the age of Charname???
it 20.. so far so good… the age of 20 can be okay as long as the charname isn’t an elf.
When the char name is an elf in Baldur’s gate then everything gets strange for me…
I mean a 20 years old elf??? that’s very strange that’s like a 5 year human baby would go out on adventure. And why doesn’t any elf in the game overact that an baby elf is adventuring in a very dangerous world… shouldn’t the elf char name be in some kind of elven kindergarten? And shouldn’t the elf followers in the game also overract on the Elf Charname? And in Baldur’s gate 2 it gets even more bizarre with the romance with Jaheira or Aerie. I mean isn’t that paedophilia??
ELF SUBRACES BY CATEGORIES OF AGE A&DD 2nd edition
Subrace Childhood Adolescence Adulthood* Middle Age** Venerable Old Age† Maximum Age‡
Aquatic 1-59 years 60-99 years 100-159years 160-219 years 220-299 years 300+ years
Drow 1-49 years 50-79 years 80-139 years 140-189 years 190-224 years 225+ years
Grey 1-79 years 80-119 years 120-209 years 210-299 years 300-424 years 425+ years
High 1-74 years 75-109 years 110-174 years 175-249 years 250-349 years 350+ years
Sylvan 1-69 years 70-104 years 105-169 years 70-229 years 230-324 years 325+ years
* Full normal abilities (1dex, -1 con)
** -1 Str, -1 Con, +1 Int, +1 Wis
† -1 Str, -1 Con, +1 Wis
‡ -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con; +2 Int, +2 Wis
Childhood:
Elves remain children for approximately 65 to 75 years. They grow slowly throughout these
years, achieving a height of 4 feet at most. It is during this stage of life that they learn what it
means to be an elf. They learn the basics of archery and swordplay. However, they are still
essentially children and continue with their childish ways until they reach adolescence.
Anyway whenever there is a Baal spawn that is a long living race that’s when it gets very bizarre in my eays and eyes.
* other things that makes me wonder WHYYY,,, is it whenever and often when someone is not white race gets killed in games and movies… in this case Dynaheir
And Yoshimo.
Dynaheir is Mulhurandi descended that comes from the country of rashemen. A Mulhurandi is a human that is Indian/Pakistani Black skinned human (not afro black human) with Egyptian background. When Baldur’s gate 2 start you get the information that the games only black follower human is killed by the white man (Edwin). At that time biowere didn’t even made amend for all black player in the world. They could give you a chance to resurrect her or make a new black human follower (maybe Dynaheir black sister or brother who are seeking revenge o something)
Yoshimo is Kozakurans escended and coming from the continents
Of Kara-Tur. Kozakurans in Abeir-Toril are the japan of our earth. That means the only far east Asian follower in the game that every far east Asian man or woman player could identify oneself with gets overkilled to oblivion and is unresurrectable story wise.
Now I do hope that overhoul things one or twice when introducing new Followers in the future… the best thing about the planet of Abeir-Toril that Baldur’s game plays at are a multinational ethnicity world that every player can identify oneself with…
If there is other things that is very wierd in the game please write it here... i might have missed it.
it 20.. so far so good… the age of 20 can be okay as long as the charname isn’t an elf.
When the char name is an elf in Baldur’s gate then everything gets strange for me…
I mean a 20 years old elf??? that’s very strange that’s like a 5 year human baby would go out on adventure. And why doesn’t any elf in the game overact that an baby elf is adventuring in a very dangerous world… shouldn’t the elf char name be in some kind of elven kindergarten? And shouldn’t the elf followers in the game also overract on the Elf Charname? And in Baldur’s gate 2 it gets even more bizarre with the romance with Jaheira or Aerie. I mean isn’t that paedophilia??
ELF SUBRACES BY CATEGORIES OF AGE A&DD 2nd edition
Subrace Childhood Adolescence Adulthood* Middle Age** Venerable Old Age† Maximum Age‡
Aquatic 1-59 years 60-99 years 100-159years 160-219 years 220-299 years 300+ years
Drow 1-49 years 50-79 years 80-139 years 140-189 years 190-224 years 225+ years
Grey 1-79 years 80-119 years 120-209 years 210-299 years 300-424 years 425+ years
High 1-74 years 75-109 years 110-174 years 175-249 years 250-349 years 350+ years
Sylvan 1-69 years 70-104 years 105-169 years 70-229 years 230-324 years 325+ years
* Full normal abilities (1dex, -1 con)
** -1 Str, -1 Con, +1 Int, +1 Wis
† -1 Str, -1 Con, +1 Wis
‡ -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con; +2 Int, +2 Wis
Childhood:
Elves remain children for approximately 65 to 75 years. They grow slowly throughout these
years, achieving a height of 4 feet at most. It is during this stage of life that they learn what it
means to be an elf. They learn the basics of archery and swordplay. However, they are still
essentially children and continue with their childish ways until they reach adolescence.
Anyway whenever there is a Baal spawn that is a long living race that’s when it gets very bizarre in my eays and eyes.
* other things that makes me wonder WHYYY,,, is it whenever and often when someone is not white race gets killed in games and movies… in this case Dynaheir
And Yoshimo.
Dynaheir is Mulhurandi descended that comes from the country of rashemen. A Mulhurandi is a human that is Indian/Pakistani Black skinned human (not afro black human) with Egyptian background. When Baldur’s gate 2 start you get the information that the games only black follower human is killed by the white man (Edwin). At that time biowere didn’t even made amend for all black player in the world. They could give you a chance to resurrect her or make a new black human follower (maybe Dynaheir black sister or brother who are seeking revenge o something)
Yoshimo is Kozakurans escended and coming from the continents
Of Kara-Tur. Kozakurans in Abeir-Toril are the japan of our earth. That means the only far east Asian follower in the game that every far east Asian man or woman player could identify oneself with gets overkilled to oblivion and is unresurrectable story wise.
Now I do hope that overhoul things one or twice when introducing new Followers in the future… the best thing about the planet of Abeir-Toril that Baldur’s game plays at are a multinational ethnicity world that every player can identify oneself with…
If there is other things that is very wierd in the game please write it here... i might have missed it.
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Comments
As to the races, it all depends on how you define them. Sure we have halflings dwarves and elves, but in reality they are all white. Minsc who is from Rashemen like Dynahier is white while she is black, this confused me a bit, though I'm not very familiar with the area, perhaps it is very diverse?
I would like to see more races represented in the game as well.
Im actually 50% asian myself but i didn't really feel like I "identified with Yoshimo" and certainly didn't punch my monitor at the end of BG2's chapter 4.
Besides, there's a lot more different ethnicities in the BG series then you mention (IF you can even make a Faerun -> real world comparison that is.)
Edwin likely isn't "white" but rather someone from the turkish countries, as well as Minsc.
Sarevok's black, Keldorn, Nalia and Anomen are likely the equivelant of Spaniards and Khalid an Safana are Arabs.
There's probarly more but my point is that it's rather absurd to think that Bioware intentionally killed of a "Pakistani, Japanese and an Arab".
orginal Rashemen people or a mix of Vikings and Highlanders
anyway you know that turks, arabs (not the buidines ) are white people?? they only have diffrient culture
the only new thing is the spanish part you say... it's good to see there are some half spanish survivors (Safana and Khalid also gets killed don't forget that)
There are some holes in this theory as well such as Gorion being your guardian and rescuing you. However the rescue part was mentioned really late in the series when they were rushing and grasping at straws. Your best bet is to just over look them and enjoy the story much like you would do watching a movie (Cars don't explode like that if they fall off a cliff!)
As for the racism, Bioware is probably one of the least racist video game developers out there. These characters existed in the first place because they were written in. Every character could of been straight white cornbred fed with a coke card but they aren't.
With Dhyna you have a choice of either saving her (good) or helping kill her (bad). You aren't forced to hunt her down. The game also has a good way of weaving in Farun lore as Thay and Mulhundari were at war at the time.
With Yoshimo, a lot of his plot was left in the waste bin as Bioware had to rush the game. It is one of the reasons why you can't raise him. It is just a sadly unfinished quest. It is actually rumored that Yoshimo is related to a late character in the first game.
Amusing you left out Viconia (one of the most loved characters in the game), Cernd, Valygar (ok, you have a choice to kill him too but I digress) and Mazzy as nonwhite NPCs. Not to mention Raased who Overhaul put in recently and Khalid, who I always viewed as Middle Eastern given his name.
Bhaalspawn were not all conceived during the actual Time of Troubles; Bhaal foresaw his fate and spread his seed BEFORE the actual crisis. We do not know how much in advance, but it could easily have been decades, accounting for the differences in age between the various Bhaalspawns.
Granted, that doesn't explain everything, either. It can be fixed by just saying "your father is a god, you develop differently than others of your race", but such a blanket statement is a bit of a cheat...
I guess things just don't always work out when you're trying to reconcile the "isolated" history of the BG games with the history of the Forgotten Realms.
Heck, the whole Time of Troubles only took place TEN YEARS prior to BG (1358 DR) to begin with, which opens up a whole lot of other questions.
As for the race thing... ever notice how the only black guy is a STALKER? Not to mention he's the ONLY black guy... Games are made for audiences, and the audience for BG at the time was likely predominantly white males. There you go, that also explains why there's no female dwarves around, because really, who'd want THAT.
I didn't use Viconia, Mazzy, dorn and the rest non human race cuz they are not humans... thats very simple...
hmm.. Khalid he dies.... and Raased well so far we know he is still alive... we shall se how he will end in BG2 however don't forget when you talking about Meddle east (arab countries) 90% of them are more white than white ppl... that is if they are not surnburned... and if you talking about Near east and caucasian region i must say they are extremly white people (Except for Pakistan and afganistan)
That's my theory anyways.
One obvious example is the blatant katana fanboy-ism exhibited in BG2, which ties into certain objectifying trends regarding Japanese culture prevalent in the 1990s that constructs Japan less as an actual historico-cultural place and more as a fantasy land comprised of ninja, martial arts, and super-powerful swords. Bioware obviously took this on due to the cultural climate of the day, but that is frequently how such views actually operate in socety. (This is not to say that Japan itself did not later capitalise on these Western idealisations of their nation, they in fact turned it into a rather lucrative strategy of international soft power [the 'Japan Cool' plan], but this does not make it at heart any less ultimately based in racialised cultural stereotyping).
Someone can think racist thoughts and have racist ideas and reactions without really being 'a racist' in the way it is often thrown about in contemporary society's ethico-political mudslinging matches. This is because racism is a highly ingrained cultural institution that most people partake in at an unconscious level. The issue is really to be able to identify when you are doing such things and consider why you are doing or thinking them.
I am unfamiliar with Forgotten Realms in general (never really been a PnP player), but I would also assume that certain systemically-racist trends and stereotypes from the real world are intrinsic to the setting. Indeed, I would be highly surprised if it did not. This is not a slight on its creators, since such stereotypes often infiltrate works and mindsets without conscious awareness. And, indeed, cultural stereotyping is incredibly prevalent in the fantasy and science-fiction genres overall.
Seriously this thread needs a lock.
Edit: @ abuse flag, listen three things:
1. Forums and race discussions don't mix well
2. High fantasy and race discussions don't mix well
3. Try telling some group of arabs they are white people and expect an ass-kicking
please write something concrete if you want to comment something. verbal offending words like freaking stupid are not welcome in this thread... if you have something to add write so if it is about the age f the Charname or followers that dies or else don't write anything here and also don't use curses and swears when you write something.
Thank you.
Also, I'm pretty sure he didn't WANT his progeny mature. In fact, the whole reason why Gorion and the Harpers stormed the temple of Bhaal where CHARNAME lived was because the priests there were about to kill all the INFANT BHAALSPAWN. Remember: you have not been born to replace, you are fuel for the return. The last thing Bhaal wants is his children to become aware of their heritage and develop ambitions of godhood, as ends up happening.
Interesting. Now that i think about it BG2 was indeed released in a time when japanese animes like Dragonball dominating US and EU television sets.
Khalid doesnt just have an arabic name though. His bio actually states he is from Calimport.
2. Valygar is a "black" follower, and he's a badass whose involvement changes the tone of one of the game's more interesting quests/locales quite a bit.
3. Kozakurans, and by extension all Kara-Turan peoples, are rarities in the Faerun portion of the Forgotten Realms. It does suck that Yoshimo is not available for the entire game, though, you're right.
EDIT: "century," not "decade"
As others have said, the npc's in BG have different features because of their nationality . What if the game happened in Kara Tur, would you ask for more 'white' characters?
In BG1 Dynaheir and Khalid don't belong to different regions because "it was necessary to present different cultures" . It was because it gives them an exotic background, because they are believable characters.
In BG2 they die because the villain killed both and made the survivors miserable .
High fantasy has been shaped largely by Tolkien, is full of white people and, to add some sexism, lacks so much of female characters that Hollywood has to doctor around on it to make it appealing to a mainstream audience. In the end, it is still fantasy and should be taken as exactly that: entertainment, not a political statement.
And arabs are NOT white, caucasian or however you wanna call it. There are arabs with lighter skin, but then, there are also black africans with lighter skin. (For example, compare actors like Shemar Moore and Peter Mensah.) That doesn't make them white. Saying "everyone who is lighter than a drow is white" is a bit racist in itself.
The problem people have is not that Yoshi or Dynaheir are "foreigners" within the game, but that the only two characters to permanently die over the course of the story itself, are two of the four "non-Caucasians", the other two being Valygar and Viconia (who herself really looks just like a Caucasian with drow makeup). Yes, there's a lot of "Caucasian" people living in the parts where BG takes place; but of the quite large NPC lineup that BG has, why did it have to be the "foreigners" who kick the bucket? Looks like too much of a coincidence, really...
"It would be nice if some of the increased ethnicity of the game wasn't lost by characters like Dynaheir and Yoshimo being killed off permanently".
This post became racist when you mentioned their black offspring coming for revenge against the white people, etc. Just took it too far man.
1. High fantasy, in this case D&D has a history of incremental growth dating back to Tolkien and the brothers Grimm. It is directly based on folklore and ancient Old Norse, Celtic and Germanic religions and myths. People in these northern European regions were white and so were their gods and mythical figures. In cases these figures were another color, for example grey or black, it was usually because they were evil. In the tribal world of these ancient people, light was good and darkness was evil/dangerous. Skin colors in those cases had nothing to do with racism. Heck, they didn't even meet other races. It is therefor logically explainable that high fantasy has always been predominated by white, medieval style figures. Complaining that a lack of Arabs/Africans/Asians in high fantasy settings is racism, is close to the same as complaining about racism cause of a lack of white people in a fantasy game/story about ancient Egypt.
2. From a RP perspective, criticism on behavior towards other races/colors and naming it racism doesn't make sense. The concept of racism is relatively new in the modern age. The fantasy figures in D&D games live in a setting that emulates a time where people were mostly concerned with surviving another day, finding some food and perhaps a few coins. They couldn't care less. The fantasy figures are for example hostile towards a Drow, because in the fantasy setting these are bloodthirsty murderers that will kill you on sight 99 out of a 100 times. The reactions towards Drow do not come from Social Darwinism ideas or a white supremacist ideology, but simply because Drow will most likely slaughter people. The same goes for Half-Orcs, simply because Orcs have a tendency to decapitate people, rather than coming by for a nice and friendly conversation. There is no point in pushing 21th century moral concepts about race equality on fantasy figures in this particular pre-modern setting. Racism discussions from a RP perspective are irrelevant.
Those who romanced Jacob in Mass Effect 2 wind up being dumped for his pregnant lover in 3. In fact his romance was more loke a cheesy B porn with every stereotype in the book. And the fanbase preferred crickets and fishmen over him.
Isabela, the only non-white female romance so far in the Dragon Age series, happens to sleep with just about everyone.
Zevran plays off of the stereotypical latin horndog trope.
Every female romance option in Mass Effect was white (not counting the aliens).
The only human male who committed to you in loving monogamous relationships in Dragon Age and Mass Effect were white (Alistair and Kaidan).
(I acknowledge there were Traynor and Cortez, both which were excellent characters, but sadly one was relegated to a cheesy shower scene and the other ambiguous. Also ironic how there's no heterosexual options that look like them, coming from someone whose protagonists don't often come from what you see on the cover of every poster.
For a future of ambiguous racially mixed humans, there sure were a lot of white people in the Mass Effect series overall, including their blue eyed poster boy. Same with Mass Effect 3's Star Child.
Not saying BioWare is intentional but there's a bit more racism than you think in those games. I can understand Dragon Age being based off of European mythos but Mass Effect?
It would be nice to see non Anglo characters that aren't promiscuous, fetishes or relegated to a quota/B status/stereotypes.
Sorry just saw that and had to post.
The game was designed with a human male fighter protagonist (like many games in order to make it accessible for casuals by relating culturally). The novelization of the series shows that.
But for more seasoned rp'ers and creative types usually it can be overlooked.
Even if someone made the least offensive, most perfectly (ethnically) balanced, stereotype-free/defying game in the world, players would assign certain attributes to certain characters and cry racism because.
Look, sympathising with the npc's who are from foreign regions is fine, but their deaths were important for the plot .
Minsc had to go crazier, perhaps meet Aerie, and Jaheira had to lose Khalid in order to start a whole new bunch of quests and a romance. Khalid and Dynaheir are very charismatic characters, but if I were one of the writers I would kill them too - because we would all MISS them.
In most games he happens to walk into an ogre, naked and unarmed, and then dies only briefly after meeting CHARNAME.