Holier Than Thou

Wiggles

I love gog.com; I do, plain and simple. I spend waaaay too much money and time browsing and buying games. Thank goodness they don't charge alot other wise it's a toss up between another game or making the car payments. :P

However, has anyone ever been on their forums or community section? Holy s@#^!! I despise DRM, and as such will never buy a game that supports it (I'm one of those people that bought D3), however if I even mention Steam or BG:EE there, O M G!! :P You'd think I'd of just slapped thier child right in front of them. If it's not the 'original, DRM-free, all expansions free, allows mods, no future support by companies, and costs under $9.99' then it's scorned, banished, and rediculed. I feel like the community there is all 'Me, me, me because I paid for it 10+ years ago orginally'.

Even the staff of GoG seems to have a big head. (see link) I understand that they are doing a great service to the gaming community, but really, there's no need to flaunt it. Be proud of what you do, not who you can screw over.

So I sit here at almost 2am looking at another game I shouldn't buy and realize what I'm fueling. So I decided to type it out and ask if I'm kind of a hypocrite. I applaud them for what they're doing with bringing my old childhood games back, but I don't want to be treated like a child because I accept change and supporting things I believe in. So what do you think? Is GoG the best damn thing since flash drives? Or is everyone there acting like a child because it's all about them? Or am I the crazy one cause I sit here at 2am, looking at games, and complaining about what people say on the internet.... I think I just trolled myself there....

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/enhance_the_gameplay_in_your_edition_of_baldurs_gate_from_gogcom/page1

Wiggles

Also this thread isn't meant to bash anyone personally. I know it's kind of hard to do that with text, but I am trying to be civilized and thought provoking. Thanks for commenting.

Metal_Hurlant

Wiggles said:

Also this thread isn't meant to bash anyone personally.

It comes across that way.

Magnus_Grelich

@Wiggles: Well, Steam *is* bad...

I think there is a dividing line between clients like Beamdog or GOG and Steam and EA. I would say the former two are far more customer-friendly in general. Maybe GOG fans can get a bit up themselves, but on the whole, it's because they care about games, which can be forgiven.

Kitteh_On_A_Cloud

Well, the internet is full of idiots, trolls and narrow-minded elitists. I doubt Gog.com's forums are an exception to this rule. On the internet, people show their true face, or hid it behid a trololo smile, because they can't be that way in real life (God bless there are rules and social conventions in society, keeps the not-so-beautiful side of humankind in check). To me, it doesn't feel that hypocritical. You can view the site just as another medium to get the product(s) you want and completely ignore the community. You cannot change the attitude of the staff or the forum goers either, as much as you'd like to. But if they provide a good service at delivering the products you are searching for, why would you ignore that just because of some idiots with too much free time and no job on the forums of the site? Just buy your game and be done with it. Enjoy yourself. Personally I still think their personal 'promo' of personally enhancing the game yourself is under the belt, but in the end, they're still a business trying to compete. Also, I'm getting fed up with people claiming BG:EE is a scam/cash cow/waste of money, whatever. We had enough of those whiners at the release of the game. I'm glad they all left the forum and peace has returned again. Wouldn't want these forums to become like the beehive of scum and villainy called the Bioware Social Network. Don't go there. It's gotten me some mental scars. That's why I like this place much better. The forumites are usually mature and friendly, and the discussions can be very interesting. So yeah, it's good you are questioning yourself, OP, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Teflon

@Wiggles You mentioned child many times and I don't get it. What you meant is buying game is child thing or is it that because you are anti-DRM and that is considered child thing by steam forum dudes?
On the plus side, yer 200th post is interesting one.

Wiggles

@Teflon Treated like a child in that I think and speak differently than everyone else in the room so to speak. O wow, it doesn't feel like 200 comments. Thanks!!

@Kitteh_On_A_Cloud And that's usually what I do when I visit GoG: look at what's new and coming, look what's on sale, spend money I don't have :P. But the one time I visit their forums and participate.... -_-. I'm not a social person when it comes to the internet, I'd much rather talk to someone in person (this site being one of few exceptions).

@Magnus_Grelich If you don't mind me asking then. What evil do people see in Steam? I understand the constant internet connection blows. I agree, however, when I play games from Steam, I never experience latency unless it's like Counter-Strike which is a personally owned server issue. I mainly use Steam to purchase games that GoG doesn't support because the companies are still in business or someone purchased the rights. Majesty, Civ3, and the classic Dooms come to mind. If GoG had them, then I'd much rather purchase from them just to cut out the internet middle man.

@Metal_Hurlant
Well in a sense I guess I am bashing (a site or community), but I'm not trying to make this an attack on a single person. At least that's how I try to justify myself. xD

Kitteh_On_A_Cloud

The thing is, it's the internet. People act like they want. They either show their true colours (in a bad way) or they hide behind a mask and 'troll' other users, as in provking them on purpose. It's the best example of why I don't have much faith in most of humanity. Without a physical presence of the other person, or any social convention, people tend to be more careless and throw around their own opinion, which is sometimes intertwined with their own unhappiness of feelings of not being satisfied with certain aspects in their life. I'm not saying this is the case for everyone. Hell, even I sometimes can be snarky or whiny. It's just that there's a screen in between and the other people being 'invisible', thus them risking to become 'objectified' by the person talking to them. There is no personal, mutual background in most cases, except for a main shared interest in something. In this forums's case, it would be BG:EE or Baldur's Gate in general. In short: people act like dicks because they know they can and there usually won't be any repercussions, unlike there would be in real life.

Magnus_Grelich

@Wiggles: I used to use Steam, but back then, the only thing I needed it for was Team Fortress 2 (you know, before it became Advanced Hat Simulator). I wasn't too fussed. Then, I began to notice other games I was buying from stores were requiring Steam to play, even ones such as Dawn of War 2, which started alarm bells ringing. If more and more games were starting to insist that you use this method of control in order for you to even play them, then I wasn't comfortable with that. The last straw came when it was announced that Skyrim on PC would require Steam to work. Bethesda had never needed to do such a thing before, I had enjoyed Morrowind and Oblivion on PC without the need for a third party client controlling my ownership of either. I had also begun to hear stories from other gamers online about how game data had been lost, or misunderstandings/hacking led to them having their accounts compromised/blocked. If most of their games were reliant on Steam, then this meant they were essentially robbed. Whether or not it could happen to me, I wasn't willing to accept that level of control over my purchases any more. I deleted it from my computer. I may not be able to play a game or two anymore, but I can always get them on console.

As for playing games on PC... whilst it could be argued that clients like GOG and Beamdog aren't that different (cynics and DRM lackeys take note), the simple fact is they deal with older games, which would otherwise not be able to work on today's PCs. They make the modifications necessary to allow you to play them at a low price, and more importantly, the copy of the game you downloaded from them is YOUR copy. If something goes wrong with it or you lose it to computer problems, you can always download it again for no extra charge.

Kitteh_On_A_Cloud

I only installed Steam (hesistantly) in order to be able to play Skyrim. I'm against useless DRM and of course hadn't noticed the small print on the back of the box telling me I would require Steam. At that moment, however, I didn't want to let 50 euros go to waste, so I installed it anyway. I really don't see a use for Steam other than that it keeps my games neatly in one place. Yet it is still a headache to use it properly, because it is usually kinda laggy on my laptop, and my laptop is only 4 years old and was working darn fine (it crashed last week due to a downloaded corrupted file, still figuring out the problem). So yeah, Steam's annoying, but I bet not as annoying as Origin from EA. I uninstalled that piece of spyware as soon as it appeared in the news and convinced my boyfriend to do the same. If a piece of DRM gets into the news, it must indeed be a problem. I still prefer non-DRM games. To give a silly example: the Angry Birds games. You just install it, fill in the full version code and that's it. I'm glad Rovio at least hasn't been shoving DRM into my face also thus far, and their games, as simple as they may be, always work flawlessly. In general I have stopped buying games, because I simply think it isn't worth the hassle anymore. Look at the new Simcity. Most people can't even play it, and being online is mandatory for a single player game. And that while my boyfriend was so hyped up for it. But, well, it's EA. What else did you expect after their recent failures? (Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3 and SWTOR)

Chow

Regarding Steam and Origin, people keep forgetting that in the first days, Steam didn't work much better than Origin does now either. It was actually kind of cruddy, but its developers persevered and eventually fixed it, ending up with a reasonably functional and easy-to-use service. I see why you would not like it, but for me personally it works just fine.

But with that said, it really doesn't make Origin look much better, because back then Steam was a pioneer of a new era, and a few bumps in the design were to be expected. By this point, Origin's launch should have been far more smooth: it's like bringing in one of those first, slow, badly-functioning cars in the fifties, trying to compete with a bunch of much more developed and well-working vehicles.

Kitteh_On_A_Cloud

@Chow: My main issue with Origin is that it's appeared in the news and almost got a law suit from Germany for breaking privacy laws. I don't know about Steam, but seeing it didn't get any bad reputation in the media thus far, I am inclined to think Steam is just a bit less intrusive. I don't like having it on my PC nevertheless, though. All of this 'borrowing games' crap makes me sick. At least in the ol' days you could just go to a shop, buy a game, install it and play it without issues. Nowadays you have to install useless platforms and complete your game (supposedly a 'complete' product) with cut-out DLC. Gaming has lost its shine. I wish it had stayed a 'niche' industry just for a small audience. At least then we didn't get butchered games and swindled out of our money as blatantly as today. Such a shame. *sigh*

Chow

Well, I'd like to bring up the indie games and Kickstarter again as a possible ray of shining hope. We still have our niche games for the small audiences: the fact that there's also a bunch of AAA games and whatnot for the masses doesn't change that any.

As for the lawsuits, it doesn't look like Origin was particularly inconvenienced by the bad rep either. People still use it all the same. And that's terrible.

deltago

There was nothing wrong with the GoG post from a business perspective. They were trying to drive sales and increase a profit and a good way to do that is to say, this is how you can fix the game that we have on sale at the moment, to the uneducated masses.

They might of got in a slight jab as the game was delayed, but, sadly, that is common in this industry and I'd rather have a delayed game than an unfinished one. If that post got more sales for them, more power to them. Some gamers will probably buy the game twice now though to get the new kits, npcs and areas. If they don't well, they don't want to feel like they were suckered into buying something that was out of date and will pretend what they have is fine.

As for forum users, any forum users, yes, they can be narrow minded, egotistical and trollish. Even here. All I have to do is mention how much I enjoyed reading the BG novels and the Dark Alliance series is superior to the original to feel it's warmth.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Magnus_Grelich

@Bhaaldog: Agreed.

The very idea of Abdel Adrian is rage-inducing. I refuse to read those books on principal, based on what I have heard about the plot.

Chow

deltago said:

All I have to do is mention how much I enjoyed reading the BG novels and the Dark Alliance series is superior to the original to feel it's warmth.

You're kidding, right? Just saying this to make a point? Please?

Wiggles

@deltago

Well, looks like it worked lol. Back on topic please before this becomes a train wreck. Thanks.

Kitteh_On_A_Cloud

*is totally lost because she hasn't read the novels, nor played the Dark Alliance series*

Vnavekul

Never visited the forums before, but I like what they do. I usually shell out the (little amount of) cash for the classics I still love and don't want to play anymore with annoying disks. (Yes, I'm talking about GoG again.) :P That's why things like Steam don't bother me at all. The program is quick enough for me, the automatic updates are nice and Gabe Newell has always said that there will be an (offline) solution if/when Steam ever shuts down. My only gripe is the pricing there, but you can catch sales or cheap keys through others.

I don't like Origin either. The software doesn't work all that great in my opinion and I don't really like their titles anyway. It's the same with Ubisoft's crapware. Assassin's Creed III was immensely annoying to play in my opinion, but my girlfriend likes the series and I found a key for 15 euro or something. Good enough.

Anyway, to get back on point, why do you still play games if some of you are this dissatisfied? I think there are still a lot of pearls to be found in the gaming industry. I still get a big... Tingle in my stomach from almost all the games from Nintendo, Bethesda, Blizzard and awesome independent developers for instance.

You just need to know where to look. As it is with every form of media out there. There is also a lot of crap produced in the field of music and shows, but you decide what to watch. I just ignore crap like... Glee!

[Deleted User]

Chow said:

Well, I'd like to bring up the indie games and Kickstarter again as a possible ray of shining hope. We still have our niche games for the small audiences: the fact that there's also a bunch of AAA games and whatnot for the masses doesn't change that any.

As for the lawsuits, it doesn't look like Origin was particularly inconvenienced by the bad rep either. People still use it all the same. And that's terrible.

I would argue that indie games, GoG, and Kickstarter all benefit from an environment where there are a bunch of AAA games on the market. Big games published by corporations with broad advertising reach brings new people into gaming, and some of those people will eventually look for something different than the next AAA game and turn to one of the niche developers. After all, I doubt many people get their very first game from GoG or Kickstarter. I imagine that the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter got a boost from Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas drawing attention to the genre and its roots.

What makes me leery about Origin is the apparently low bar for getting your account banned and losing access to your games. On the other hand, I love Steam not only for its convenience, but also because its frequent sales address the fact that a lot of games aren't worth full retail to everyone and can benefit from more flexible pricing. It makes DLC a lot more palatable as well when you can scoop up most of the DLC for a game in a big bundle with a 75% discount thrown in, and all for real money instead of having to use some sort of gratuitous point system.

Magnus_Grelich

@Kaigen: You're forgetting that Steam has gained an increasing stranglehold on people by somehow getting the right to force people to install their client and sign up for it, when all they want to do is buy a hard copy of a game from a store or online retailer such as Amazon. See my previous comment about the Elder Scrolls series and Dawn of War 2 for examples. This trend of ensuring people can only play their purchases through what is essentially tarted-up DRM has continued to grow over the last four or five years. It is insidious and I firmly believe it will destroy gaming as an industry and a pastime if it is not halted now.

[Deleted User]

@Magnus_Grelich I can understand the frustration of having a game you want to play be on a platform you dislike. I still haven't bought Mass Effect 3 for myself because of my suspicion towards Origin. That said, I am not opposed to all DRM on principle and so I have no problem accepting Steam's relatively unintrusive brand of it. And I can understand developers who would rather piggyback on Steam's multiplayer networking rather than try to make their own (I've seen plenty of bad results from developers trying to re-invent the wheel rather than use someone else's pre-established system). This is only a problem for the industry as a whole if it becomes widespread and pernicious, and I still see plenty of games which are available via multiple means of distribution, especially indie games. At this point I have games from four or five online distributors (Battle.net, Steam, Beamdog, uPlay, etc.), so it's hardly as though Steam has a stranglehold. They're just the bigger player in town.

Magnus_Grelich

@Kaigen: I hear you, and if it just ended there, I wouldn't be so worried. However, what happens in a few years when the technology moves on or clients like Steam are superseded or abandoned? All those games that required their existence to work will be rendered useless. You will either have to hope the modding/patching community can resolve this, or you will have to buy them all over again from whatever takes their place. A good game should be a stable investment, that's why Steam and EA worry me so much. They are the lynchpins in this kind of system - by design or not, I don't know - but if they ever go out of business, then the whole thing may very well come crashing down.

FinneousPJ

thepiratebay.se does have "patches" for all contemporary games, don't worry

Magnus_Grelich

My service provider blocks access to piratebay.

Chow

There's about a million proxies you can use instead.

As for games being a stable investment these days, they don't seem much like that even without things such as Steam and Origin: most of them have zero replay value anyway. So for the most part, if you are only really renting them and probably won't play them again after one time, the least that should be done would be to get prices a lot lower than what they are right now.

Magnus_Grelich

Of course, not every game is a good one, but there are enough games with some replay value that this still matters. That's another horrible trend the industry needs to get out of; making games to simply throw away after you're done with them. Yet another way of getting you to blow more money.

[Deleted User]

@Magnus_Grelich Well that's a problem with gaming in general over a long enough time span. After all, GoG's mainline strategy is selling games to people who already owned them but have trouble getting them working on modern systems (or misplaced the physical discs). If it's superseded or abandoned, you'll still have the game files thanks to the download and lack of DRM, but how many iterations of Windows (or your OS of choice) will it take to obsolete them?

Magnus_Grelich

That, I do not know. The technology moves so quickly these days, and yet, with games, all the industry seems to want to do with it is improve graphics or bind people into reliance on publishers. Consoles do not have nearly as many of the problems PCs have when it comes to gaming, although I'd like to see a move away from online reliance for both.