POLL: Should Druids need Wooden Shields?

Hoo

I already posted the same thread but I'd like to remake the thread with polling.

The problem of Druids in BG series is that they have wrong equipment restriction, i.e., they only can equip bucklers even though they can wear all of nonmetal armors and equip all of nonmetal shields.

I'm now making Druid Revisions mod, which includes not only kit/class revisions but also providing additional equipment for Druids due to the problem. I've first consider to allow Druids using all of shields instead of bucklers only, but I still wonder whether the other players agree with this way as Druid Revisions or not... Conceptually, I have to add nonmetal shields according to the D&D rule. From point of view of implementation, however, the works seem to be huge things because I need to add several magical wooden shields on top of normal wooden bucklers, small/medium/large shields, and +1~+3 ones. Anyway, I'd want to pick up the best way which a majority can be satisfied.

Please let me know your opinion!

JuliusBorisov

Druids should have an ability to use wooden shields - it follows the rules. While druids can't use metal armor and weapons, wooden shields will be great.

If you're making a Druid Revisions mod, let any idea that follows the rules be realized.

I've posted some images at http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/17087/should-druids-need-wooden-shields#latest that can be used as

1) a proof that D&D books let druids to use wooden shields

2) a concept art for a mod

Lemernis

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Fardragon

Go for it.

Don't forget to flag them for Beastmasters too.

Nifft

Here's an idea:

1/ Wooden shields break, just like weapons break. Thus they are inferior to metal shields, so non-Druids will be happier with metal.

2/ Remove metal shields until the Iron Crisis is resolved.

3/ No magic wooden shields. Instead, special materials, like an ankheg shield (as an option from Thunderhammer instead of the ankheg armor), and some kind of wyvern skull shield (using a bunch of wyvern heads of course), and other stuff like that.

- - -

If you're making hide armors, how about a Winter Wolf Hide Armor? I have plenty of winter wolf pelts lying around, and I know where to get more of them.

Similarly, Wyvern Hide Armor would be cool (maybe grants poison resistance).

Basilisk Hide Armor? (Protection from Petrification, protection from Slow?)

Cursed Bear Armor (grants rage 1/day), for bear-serkers.


Cheers, -- N

Fardragon

A wooden large shield should be heavy and have an increased strength requirement. You might consider a 1 point AC penalty vs crushing for the medium and small shields.

Hoo

Thanks for all of comments and ideas!

@Nifft, I've made Polar Bear Hide Armor instead of Winter Wolf's and Wyvern Scale Mail instead of Wyvern Hide Armor, but yours are also good ideas.

@Fardragon, good point! I was worry about which difference between wooden shields and metal shields should be required. Generally metal is harder than wood so I thought wooden shields might need to have a little penalty. Your suggestion would be good for it.

And about beastmaster, yes, he need to become more similar to Druids in aspects of their equipment restrictions (they should be able to use weapons that is usable by druids, shields, and armors imo).

@bengoshi, thank you for the concept art! The great concept art would be very useful for representing my mod intuitively.

IkMarc

Option 3: leave it as it is.

The choice to let them only use bucklers came from a programming/technical perspective. Now of course it is important to take the player's perception into account, but sometimes it is important to be pragmatic in such cases. Not doing so leads to a buggy mess.

Hoo

IkMarc said:

Option 3: leave it as it is.

The choice to let them only use bucklers came from a programming/technical perspective. Now of course it is important to take the player's perception into account, but sometimes it is important to be pragmatic in such cases. Not doing so leads to a buggy mess.

Well, this might be an alternative, however, I'd rather allow Druids using all of shields instead of this because of balance comparing to Clerics. Druids have worse restriction penalties than Clerics, and even their spells also hardly be said as it is better than Clerics' imo.

That's why I've started making Druid Revisions...

IkMarc

Hoo said:

IkMarc said:

Option 3: leave it as it is.

The choice to let them only use bucklers came from a programming/technical perspective. Now of course it is important to take the player's perception into account, but sometimes it is important to be pragmatic in such cases. Not doing so leads to a buggy mess.

Well, this might be an alternative, however, I'd rather allow Druids using all of shields instead of this because of balance comparing to Clerics. Druids have worse restriction penalties than Clerics, and even their spells also hardly be said as it is better than Clerics' imo.

That's why I've started making Druid Revisions...

Yes that is a valid point, imo Clerics and Druids are unbalanced. Though the ability to (dual) wield swords is better than wearing shields if you ask me. Perhaps there are better revisions for balancing to think of?

Hoo

IkMarc said:

Yes that is a valid point, imo Clerics and Druids are unbalanced. Though the ability to (dual) wield swords is better than wearing shields if you ask me. Perhaps there are better revisions for balancing to think of?

When we consider about revisions for class, there are many aspects should be considered. I just picked up shields in this case, but actually I'm making the revision mod including

- much more eased equipment restriction, i.e., including not only shields but also weapons/armors
- revision/rebalancing kits themselves (including True Druid)
- additional druidic spells and spell revisions
- several minor components

I understand what you mean, but I'd want to revise Druids as similar as I can, based on D&D rule. For example, several branches of Druids can use Bows/Arrows so I relieved the weapon restriction according to the descriptions.

Kilivitz

The weapon restriction rules for Priests in AD&D are quite frankly, an inconsistent mess. Druids can't use metal weapons but Scimitars are fine for some reason. Bows and arrows are a no-no but slings are OK. Why? Metal armor is prohibited, but if you are a Fighter/Druid, then it is allowed. How come?

There's also the old argument as to why "generic" priests can't use bladed or piercing weapons - so it's not okay to behead someone with a sword, but crushing their skulls with a mace or a hammer is fine.

In BG, you can't even argument it's an issue of balance, because some of the most powerful weapons in the game are usable by Clerics.

That is the one (and probably only) change 3E made to the rules that IMHO made for a better game. Just let everyone use whatever weapons they want and make restrictions based on proficiency and/or stat requirements instead of class.

Actually that would be a lot like the Ashes of Embers mod. I hope that one gets an EE version in the near future.

TJ_Hooker

But how many of those are AD&D rules, and how many are just BG interpretations? For example, I believe the rationale behind druids using scimitars is based off some ceremonial thing, and the use is actually more limited, but in BG they just allowed them to use scimitars across the board. Also, I remember someone saying that in AD&D, if a Fighter/Druid equips metal armour, they are supposed to lose their spellcasting abilities for a day or something.

Frosty

Never unstood how mettel from rocks is any less natrul then wood from tree or leather from animals

Moomintroll

Frosty said:

Never unstood how mettel from rocks is any less natrul then wood from tree or leather from animals

In the imagination, extracting metal from ore is like to transubstantiation. Magically drawing one substance out of another, something hidden of which there was no prior indication.

Though I agree, that literally it is perfectly natural and of course some metals occur "naturally," unbonded.

Nifft

Frosty said:

Never unstood how mettel from rocks is any less natrul then wood from tree or leather from animals

I blame hippies.

lunar

I think druids deserve any boost they can get. And wooden shields sound okay, though they still need to be weaker than regular, metalic shields. Perhaps no AC bonus to slashing weapons etc. since a heavy axe will slash right through wood?

I personaly think at least short bow should be usable by druids, too. It is one of the ancient hunting weapons used by people, among with staves, clubs, knives and spears and all. Druids are not abhorent to hunting for food, as far as I know, they are not vegetarian hippies, friend to all living things like a Disney princess. They despise hunting for hobby, trophies, or hunting animals to extinction though. Crossbows and composite longbows are not suitable for druids, they are far more techy than regular short bows.

Crawley

I disagree.
1. Wooden shield can give you an edge in a swordfight as a sword can literally get stuck in it, rendering opponent weaponless.
2. For example oak can be very tough, so it can actually endure the impact.
3. This is FR, a magical wooden shield can be hard as a rock.

the_spyder

So I have to ask, how do people think this change should impact Jaheira? She can already wear metal armor. Removing that would pretty much remove any reason why she splits her XP down the middle.

Thoughts?

Kilivitz

I don't really agree with that, @the_spyder. At least in BG1 she could still wear the Ankheg Plate Mail, and in BG2 there are quite a few leather/studded leather armors and items than can make up for a lack of heavy armor. Not to mention a little druid spell named Iron Skins.

So I don't think those restrictions would make her any less efficient as a character. Specially considering Druids have a lot more offensive firepower than Clerics.

the_spyder

@Kilivitz, It would limit her in my part because the Ankheg plate I usually relegate to my cleric (usually Viconia). The change would mean that my cleric couldn't wear it until I got two and was thus not as effective a second stringer. This would constitute a change.

As for Iron Skins in BG2, that is great, except that a worse AC due to not as good armor means she will get hit more often and thus burn through the iron skins quicker. And once she does burn through them, she has only her armor to rely upon. And having to keep multiple iterations of the spell means that she can't cast other things in that slot.

If you net it out, lack of metal armor versus full progression as a single class, I think it is the fact that she can wear armor that makes her anything close to being a decent combatant and front liner. Minus that, you end up with a strong second stringer at best.

Kilivitz

I don't know, from my experience, it was always possible to achieve a ridiculously low AC with Jaheira (specially when using shields like Saving Grace), so I think she'd still be viable.

Truth is, I never really used her as a frontliner, but more as a caster (part-time healer, part-time offensive) and backup fighter, so I can see why we'd have different opinions.

Gawdzilla

Wooden shields & armor are fine. I agree with comments above that metal is also natural, so why can't druids use metal armors...

But for sake of argument, if they can't -- how about expanding the capabilities of wood? Wood has sap, which in magical terms could also become acidic, or slow an attacker, or create a puff of poisonous gas on every hit. Wood also has roots (sorry for the pun), maybe a wood shield gives a bonus to a fighter keeping his or her ground.

A player should want to choose wood for its unique abilities, rather than just look at what shield/armor/etc has the "best" number.

Hoo

Thank you for all of the comments.

Actually, I decide not to give additional penalty for wooden shields so much.

The reason is that if wooden shields are worse than metal shields in aspects of their actual bonuses such as AC, the wooden shields just become another disadvantage of Druids. I don't want to give an explicit downside to Druids anymore. And I don't want the situation that no classes except Druids use the wooden shields.

I might add some disadvantage to wooden shields, but that would not significant thing. I'd think @Nifft 's idea is good enough, which makes non-magical wooden shields to be broken.

Nifft

@Hoo - Cool! Maybe your mod (or another mod on top of yours) will remove metal shields from the game until the Iron Crisis is resolved... or if not, I can just impose that restriction on my own games. :-)

Lemernis

I'm surprised I'd never thought about it before, but metal shields should be breaking due to the iron crisis as well as weapons.

(Never mind that Faerun seems to ignore brass and copper in all of this. I'm pretty sure I've seen references to metals in FR canon, but I'm not absolutely certain.)