I love some if the features in this mod. I have been working on my own cleric mod for quite some time using a very different mechanic. I don't really need anything here (though, I'm really tempted to copy their usability system!)
Still, it would speed up the process. It's really a shame.
I haven't looked at the usability system. It probably puts mine (all clerics can use all weapons, the only difference is in proficiencies) to shame.
But with cleric kits, I feel like the rule is, the more the merrier. You can make clerics of all these deities, you can use the same kit names, you can give them very similar characteristics... there's nothing wrong with taking inspiration FoF clearly took inspiration from WotC products), and I feel like the line between that and plagiarism is pretty broad. You just can't take the exact same code and repost it, or claim it is your own.
I think the biggest issue with cleric kits is inter-mod compatibility. Faiths of Faerun was not compatible with Divine Remix v7, which was not compatible with Frosty Journey, which was not compatible with Scales of Balance. Those mods mostly contain different deities, so they should ideally all install together. DR and FJ took steps to add compatibility (DR v8 without the sphere system, and FJ making the "cleric kit penalties" an optional component). And I took pains to include DR and FJ in my weapon usability system.
So I say bring on the kits, but try to make them compatible.
Dude. The usability system is out of this world! They made it so usability is a level dependent thing. Just tweak the clab, and, (eg) thieves can read scrolls and/or use wands at level 10.
They also figured out--I have no idea how!--how to restrict spells in the clab. This mod was full of revolutionary stuff!
And the craziest thing was that it was compatible with the 'vanilla' usability system. The only thing is that they restricted items using (I forget the #) an opcode that restricts item usage by type and when you tried to use the item, it wasn't colored the same as when restricted the 'normal' way.
As for my mod...I am planning to incorporate 'real' kits and allowing deity selection in addition to kit selection via dialog and (so, so many!) hidden kits. While it will allow for a huge number of possible deities, it will probably not be compatible with other cleric kits (though, I think DR sphere compatibly is possible--I will obviously make it as compatible as possible). Even if it does allow for compatibility, kits would have to be chosen in a different way. You might first choose, say, a "War Priest". You can then select which deity--only ones for which such a kit would be plausible--you worship. If you choose Helm, say, you are then a "War Priest of Helm". Some will have unique names as special orders described in the Faiths of Farune sourcebook...
As you might guess this alone is going to take a lot of work. (I'd say that I'm about 20% done.) I also will need to tweak various dialogs, and especially the cleric stronghold quests.
I think for flavor reasons, if nothing else, the sphere system should not be identical to the school system. Also, I think some wizard spells should be used where they fit. In vanilla, what, 24 spells per level can be displayed? So, no combination of spheres for a given kit should exceed that number (almost certainly not an issue).
At the same time, we can add a number of spells because the display limit won't matter (after the 1 second delay). Actually, this should be tested, I suppose.
Ooh yeah, I think it would be cool to keep major and minor access. And perhaps druids, paladins and rangers can get in on the fun
Anyway, the fun stuff: what spheres, and what spells for each?
I could see one for each 'element' ie fire, water, air and earth. Combat. Protection. Death. Healing. Alignment based? Gotta look em up
That is 22 total--(!) More if I missed any!--though this includes both druid and cleric exclusives.
All: includes spells available to all divine casters: seems like it should stay (and probably absorb some others) 1
Charm: well, I could see this adding some wizard spells like charm and domination, but be restricted to Sune, and maybe a few other 'love'and perhaps 'fertility'deities. Any spells of this domain that should be universal can be switched to All (a general rule). 2 2
Combat: A must for the tempus types, no? 3
Creation: this seems like one that could be completely absorbed by All, or distributed as appropriate 3
Divination: I like the flavor, but how many good divination spells are there? Feels like another one that can go to All. 3
Guardian: Seems like it could be combined with Protection. 4
Healing: I can see this absorbing the 'positive' necromantic spells like raise dead. 5
Necromantic: I favor calling this "Death" and restricting it to the 'cleric necromancer' types (i.e. clerics of Mykrul and perhaps others) having only destructive spells like Finger of Death and Animate Dead. 6
Protection: Again, seems like it could be combined with Guardian. 6
Summoning: I'm not sure about this one. Perhaps it can be distributed among other domains, like all, animal, necromantic/death, elemental and guardian/protection? 6
Elemental (all): Seems good if elemental deities are included...Assuming that there are enough spells to warrant them... 10
Animal: Well, seems like a druid staple. Other nature oriented deities should get minor access at least. On the other hand, are there enough good spells? Perhaps "Plant" should be incorporated into a "Nature" sphere? 11
Plant: I think this one could be eliminated and its spells incorporated into the Animal sphere. EDIT: Another option is to incorporate this one into Elemental Earth... 11
Deity: Some spells could be specific to a given deity. Nobody else has access to those spells. They would have the deity's name as the sphere 11.5
Magic: Seems like there should be a Magic Sphere...
12.5
Weather: Incorporate into Air(?) 12
Alignment (All): It seems that these should be implemented, if at all, via alignment-based school exclusion flags.
Okay, well that is 13... Lets see how the spells can be distributed...
Spells from IWDEE (Chosen because it has the most spells. Many can be converted to other engines)
First 'draft' I'll add in SR spells later...this is taking some time. I will also mine wizard and custom spells to fill in gaps... I'll have to note what is available in IWDification as well
Also, I'm just going to go crazy and add a Magic sphere for now (you know, for the Mystria (sp?) types)
Also note that everything is alphabetized except Deity, which I put at the bottom
Personally, I'd like it if each sphere had at least one spell for each level...
I just discovered that there are spells in BGEE that are not in IWDEE...Strength of stone for one. I'll have to go back with those in mind...I should also mark were exclusive spells are found and put in conversion notes...time is running out, so later)
All:
Level 1: - Bless - Detect Evil - Curse
Level 2: - Aid (Necromantic, but...) - Find Traps - Know Alignment (heh, repetition...tempted to just assume SR)
Level 3: - Remove Curse (It's a protection/guardian spell, but this feels like a better place for it) - Remove Paralysis (ditto--I'm thinking about clerics that don't have at least minor access to guardian/protection. Am I wrong here?) - Invisibility Purge - Prayer (okay, it's a combat spell...still, what is a cleric without prayer? Am I too caught up on the name? Crazy idea: Clerics get a special ability to ask for divine intervention. Small chance for a large benefit/crazy idea) - Monster Summoning I
Level 4: - Death Ward (Not listed...might be a guardian/protection, but seems essential enough for universal availability) - Negative Plane Protection (Was protection/necromancy...maybe it should stay there, but it is such an essential, if circumstantial, spell) - Farsight (none listed--would probably have been divination. I like this spell, but I think it should be a lower level)
Level 5: - True Seeing (was divination) One of the truly great divination spells.
Level 4: - Animal Summoning I (feels like it should be a lower level) (animal) - Call Woodland Being (also was summoning. Seems nature-y) (animal) - Giant Insect (need the animations to get this into non IWD games...) (animal) - Thorn Spray (plant)
Level 5: - Animal Summoning II (most animals don't impress) (animal) - Pixie Dust (combat, but it seems very nature-y) - Insect Plague (animal)...maybe animal is okay without plant - Animal Rage (was combat, but there are already so many similar spells there at this level)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Charm:
Level 1: - Command - Remove Fear - Doom
Level 2: - Hold Person
Level 3: - Rigid Thinking (Law, but...)
Level 4: - Free Action (I guess...) - Mental Domination (was thought, but...) - Cloak of Fear (could see this as a necro/death spell)
Level 5: - Greater Command - Chaotic Commands (Chaos--I'm torn between charm and guardian)
Level 3: - Strength of One (Law but...) - Holy Smite (could see this one being alignment restricted to good) - Unholy Blight (evil?) - Moonblade (Really could see this as a Selune exclusive--Will put it there as well)
Level 4: - Holy Power (No domain listed, but this seems like a reasonable place. Shouldn't lower strength) - Recitation - Blood Rage - Star Metal Cudgel
Level 5: - Champion's Strength (Law, but this seems right) - Righteous Magic (hmm, similar to CS...) - Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Tempus approves!)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Elemental (Air): (Weather doesn't have much...maybe put it with air?)
Level 1: NONE!
Level 2: NONE!
Level 3: - Zone of Sweet Air (meh) - Call Lightning (was weather)
Level 4: - Protection from Lightning (was under weather/guardian, but there are so few air spells) - Static Charge (was weather, but it fits here) - Cloud of Pestilence
Level 5:
Level 6:
Level 7:
Elemental (Earth):
Level 1: - Strength of Stone (BGEE) should be easy to convert
Level 2: NONE!
Level 3: - Spike Growth (kinda planty too...I'm more tempted to merge the two, if only the animal sphere wasn't so...sparse)
Level 4: NONE!
Level 5: - Iron Skins (was listed as 'elemental') I believe SoD switches the names of stone skin and Iron skin--I like that! - Spike Stones
Level 6:
Level 7:
Elemental (Fire):
Level 1: NONE!
Level 2: - Flame Blade
Level 3: - Protection From Fire (also protection, but that one also has resist fire and cold and this one is a bit...thin)
Level 4: - Produce Fire
Level 5: - Flame Strike (was combat but this seems to be a better fit)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Elemental (Water):
Level 1: NONE!
Level 2: NONE!
Level 3: - Cloudburst
Level 4: - Smashing Wave
Level 5: NONE!
Level 6:
Level 7:
Guardian/Protection:
Level 1: - Protection From Evil - Sanctuary - Armor of Faith - Protection From Good
Level 2: - Resist Fire and Cold - Silence, 15' Radius
Level 3: - Glyph of Warding
Level 4: - Defensive Harmony (was Law) I was thinking Combat, but it doesn't seem very Tempus like (and perhaps he can only grant minor access to Guardian/Protection--He'd rather attack, attack, attack, yes? ) - Protection From Evil, 10' Radius
Level 5: - Magic Resistance
- Chaotic Commands (Chaos--I'm torn between charm and guardian)Level 6:
Level 7:
Healing:
Level 1: - Cure Light Wounds (alter to damage undead?)
Level 3: - Cure Medium Wounds (you know) - Cure Disease (was necro) - Exaltation (an argument can be made to put this in protection) - Cure Serious Wounds
Level 4: - Neutralize Poison - Lesser Restoration (if protection from level drain isn't universal, then this should be I think) - Unfailing Endurance (was necromancy--feels like it should be 1st level) - Cause Serious Wounds (was healing)
Level 5: - Cure Critical Wounds - Raise Dead (was necro) - Mass Cure Light Wounds (mmm, seems a bit weak)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Magic:
Level 1: NONE!
Level 2: NONE!
Level 3: - Dispel Magic - Miscast Magic
Level 4: NONE!
Level 5: NONE!
Level 6:
Level 7:
Necromantic/Death:
Level 1: - Cause Light Wounds (alter to heal undead?) Was heal
Level 2: - Cause Moderate Wounds (was heal)
Level 3: - Animate Dead - Cause Disease (was healing...) - Circle of Bones (Guardian, but, but, It's bones!) - Cause Medium Wounds
Level 4: - Poison (was healing)
Level 5: - Cause Critical Wounds (was healing) - Slay Living (was combat, but this is a quintessential necro spell!) - Repulse Undead (not listed--seems to fit. Would make a good (dark) necro spell as well...) - Undead Ward (was ward) - Mass Cause Light Wounds (was heal- meh)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Deity:
Level 1: - Sunscorch (Lathander?) - Charm Person (Sune?)
Level 4: - Wall of Moonlight (Selune?) Was protection/Sun
Level 5: - Shield of Lathander (Lathander)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Completed up to 5th level IWDEE only... To do: Spells level 6-7 Incorporate fitting wizard spells Look up spells not in IWDEE (BGEE, vanilla(?), SR) Conversion notes (especially noting IWDification conversions) Custom spells if necessary Match deities to spheres
Beginning where we agree almost completely and going from there
Charm/mind: the only thing that I wouldn't put there is wondrous recall. That certainly fits 'mind', but not so much 'charm'. I was thinking of Sune for this domain (though, any other manipulative deity) I can understand if you might be thinking (say) Denir. But most of those spells are about manipulating others, which is not very 'god of knowledge like'. As such, this one seems like it should be for the Sune's and Lovitar's, gods that fit the spells (and also be called 'charm' for flavor and fit).
Also, I think that wondrous recall should be universal (which I'll talk more about shortly).
I would also add hold person, which is traditionally a mind affect. Granted, this is closer to 'mind' than 'charm', but I see someone like lovitar using this spell and then ... Doing terrible things
Death:I have poison, while you don't. Same with cause disease. I see how those fit 'body' better than death. I suppose that I was thinking if this as the sphere for cleric necromancers, and those two fit. Mykrul would certainly grant those spells, but I don't necessarily see him granting access to a body sphere...mmm, maybe minor access. The name escapes me, but that goddess of poison and disease wouldn't want to, IMO, grant access to cure poison and especially disease. It seems like it would be heresy to cast that for one of her followers. I think that is a good reason not to give her the body sphere, yet she should give poison and cause disease. For reason, I think death is a better place for them (as there is certainly not enough for a disease or pestilence sphere).
Nature: I like it. The only thing that sticks out for me is call lightening, and sunray, though it's not a biggie. I would like to have elemental spheres, but there doesn't seem to be many spells for that.
Posting this now, though it is incomplete. But sure if I'll have more time tonight
Regarding a universal sphere. I think that some spells, deemed important to any cleric, should be in a 'universal' sphere. Not only is this supported by precident (the 'all' sphere), but it makes logistical sense. One thing that I didn't like about dr was that my clerics couldn't do 'cleric-y' things like cast restore-things that I really just expected them to be able to do. S such, I think that there should be a "core" set of spells that should be available to all clerics. Protection and/or recovery from the nastier effects should, I think, be among them.(and probably just about everybody should get at least minor access to healing unless they have decent compensation).
On a completely different tangent, I think that there should be deity specific spells that are only available to specific gods, for fun and flavor. Faiths if farune(sp?) Is an excellent source for this (and, I've already created some of them including Ilmater's waves of pain-a nasty spell that does non lethal damage over time, while holding the target).
As for universal spells, that is reasonable to have most kits have (at least minor) access to essential spheres like healing and/or have spells in multiple spheres. I think it is important to keep an eye on the must have spells. Here, my focus is not on flavor, but avoiding frustration (that I have personally experienced using DR). That can be accomplished in many ways.
As for deity specific spells, the special abilities of the vanilla kits are actually from the list of unique Helm, Talos, and Lathander spells. The 2e (edit: my mistake, faiths and avatars) source book is one of the best, IMO, of any edition partially because it made clerics of different faiths useful as well as unique and interesting (though i feel that DR followed that book too closely without considering the way that the game is implemented in the IE--some specialities had very small and not terribly useful lists IMO-this speaks more to the first consideration ie universal spells). I think that it would be nice to capture that 'unique and flavorful'aspect, but again this can be done in more than one way.
I may be late on this, but I don't think copyright matters in terms of modding and non-commercial software. You are not planning on selling it. As far as the "moral" implications go, if it has been a year or so and the modder has not replied, it should be fair game, unless it specifically states so in one of the files. This is pretty much open source here. Gut it and reuse what you can.
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor)
Akadi Elemental Air NG,N,NE All, Astral Combat Air Elementals CG,CN,CE Elemental Air Divination Movement Healing Ele. Fire Speed Protection Ele. Water Flying Cre. Traveler Necromantic Weather
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: 1 chosen melee, all ranged No Earth Related Magic Items Access to all Wizard Air Spells as priest spells 5th level: Wraithform 1x/day; Summon 8HD Elem. 1x 7th: Fly 1x 9th: Cloudkill 1x; Summon 12HD Air Elem 13th: Sum. 16HD Air Elem
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor)
Amaunator(Dead) Bureaucracy LG,LN,LE All, Charm Divination Contracts Creation, Fire Earth, Healing Law Air, Law Necromantic Order Summoning Numbers the Sun Sun, Time Protection Rulership Thought
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: As Cleric Know the law of the land they are living in (dialog options?) Detect Lie 1x/day Turn undead at 1/2 level(!); May never command undead 3rd: Rigid Thinking 1x/day 5th: Compulsive Order and Impeding Permission each 1x /day 7th: Legal Thoughts 1x/day 10th: Sol's Searing Orb 1x/day 13th: Instinctively detect ethical alignment (Law,Neutral,Chaos) 15th: Sunray 2x/day
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor)
Auril Cold LE,NE,CE All, Animal Creation Winter Combat Guardian Divination Wards Elemental (No fire) Healing Necromantic Protection Time Weather
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: Blunt and Axe; Chain and Shield Permanent resist cold: +3 save vs. cold effects: No dam on save, 1/2 failed save Frost Fingers 1x/day 3rd: Frost Whip 1x/day 5th: Ice Blade 1x/day 8th: Ice Storm or Wall of ice 2x/tenday 10th: Cone of Cold 1x/day 12th: Summon Ice Para-elemental 1/x tenday +1x per tenday/level
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor)
Azuth Wizards LG,LN,LE,N,CN All, Astral Elemental Spellcasters Charm Travelers Combat War Creation Divination Guardian Healing Law Protection Summoning Sun Thought Wards
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: Blunt; no armor Fast casting: Casting time reduced by 3(!) Read Wizard Scrolls 2nd: Cast wizard spells on one school as priest spells (at 1/2 level) 5th: Identify 1x/day 7th: Magic Missile 1x/day (at full priest level) 9th: Fireball or Lightning Bolt 1x/day (at full priest level) 12th: Cast any wizard Wall spell 1x/day (at full priest level)
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor)
Bane (Dead) Strife LE,NE,CE All, Combat Creation Hatred Divination Numbers Tyranny Elemental Sun(darkness or debuffs only) Guardian Healing Law Necromantic Summoning War
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: Blunt, but not ranged-Javelin ranged; all armor Immune to fear Certain rods have increased effects in their hands; wand of fear -2 saves 5th: Aura of Fear 7th: Dispel Good 1x/day 10th: Mystic Lash 1x 12th: Cast any wizard Wall spell 1x/day (at full priest level)
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor)
Beshaba Random Mischeif NE,CE,CN All, Astral Creation Bad luck Chaos Divination Misfortune Charm Necro(reversed forms only) Accidents Combat Time Guardian Healing (reversed only) Protection Summoning Wards
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: As standard cleric 1x/'game day' reduce another's attack or save by 1 3rd: Tasha's Hideous Laughter 1x/day 5th: Bane of Beshaba 1/day 7th: Misfire, Probability control, or Lower resistance 1/day 10th: Misfortune 1/day 15th: Automatically make one save 1/day 20th: Mordenkainen's disjunction: 1/tenday
when you take an all-or-nothing approach there is mounting pressure to make the different pieces form a coherent and balanced whole which psychologically isn't there when you make independently working components consecutively; you can notice this with many mods especially when some components become popular and others fall behind (or some might get feature creep and others get neglected). and so...i'm aware that you know and have more or less stated this already, just take extra caution
Right now I'm listing the gods as described in faiths and avatars... I'm leaving out the flavor, but even there, I think, the writing is good. If we want to add interesting dialog to make each kit stand out, we can do that, but right now I'm focused on the mechanics.
But, I completely agree about restrictions and proficiencies. (And I include armor and even magic items in that category as well.)
Only going to have time to answer the kit section in your recent post (no time to read the rest--later)
We're not so far off. Not every kit can select every god. You will not find a war priest of Sune. At the same time, not all priests if tempus need be war priests. It's actually pretty close to what your describe.
I think the ones I have so far-been a while since I worked on it, and I need to change it to a dialog system-are war priests, clerics, incarnates (conduits of divine power), archivists (scholars), ur priests (don't worship, but steal divine magic), and... I'm open to suggestions
Good points in the class section. I would prefer it if there was only multi class , but no dual class, but I'll have to allow for that option. Someone might want to play a human cleric of tempus-perhaps a gloryblood-- dualed to a fighter. I want to allow that option. But it is definitely the plan to give dual and multi class deity choices
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor)
Bhaal(Dead) Death LE,NE,CE All, Astral Divination Esp. Violent Ritual Charm Creation Death Combat Guardian Elemental Time Healing Law Necromantic Summoning
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: Blunt and Piercing; Chain, no shields 1/2%/level that a strike from a ceremonial dagger reduces a med or smaller being to 0hp 7th: Finger of Death 10th: Planeskipping (long range teleport) 11th: Sum. Arial servant (will fight unlike a normal AS) 1x/month
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor)
Chauntea Agriculture LN,N,CN All, Animal Divination Plants (by humans) LG,NG,CG Elemental (No Fire) Travelers Farmers Healing Gardeners Plant Summer Protection Time Wards Weather
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: As Druid Note: Chauntea's Specialty priests are druids
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor) Cyric Murder LE,NE,CE All, Astral Divination Strife Charm Elemental Lies Combat Numbers Intrigue Guardian Protection Deception Healing Illusion Necromantic Summoning Sun Time War Weather
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: Blunt and Longsword; Any Armor +1 Sv. Illusion Immune to Fear 3rd: Black Talon 1/day 5th: Arial Servant (Will fight) 1/ month 7th: Dark Aura or Skull of Secrets 1/day 10th: Phantasmal Killer 1/tenday 15th: Instill Madness (at will?) Feeblemind touch attack
Name Portfolios Alignments Sphere(Major) Sphere(Minor)
Deneir Glyphs LG,NG,CG All, Astral Animal Images LN,N,CN Combat Plant Literature Creation Sun Literacy Divination Time Scribes Elemental Weather Art Guardian Cartography Healing Protection Summoning Thought
Other Notes: Weapons/Armor: 1 handed Blunt; Banded Mail +4 Sv. Effects from Books and scrolls Can Basically speak all languages Can make an intelligence check to decipher runes and wards 3rd: Glyph of Revealing or erase 1/day (erase?) 5th: Glyph of Warding 1/day 7th: Dispel Magic 1/day 10th: Speak w/dead, plants or monsters 4/day 15th: Symbol 1/day
I think the ones I have so far-been a while since I worked on it, and I need to change it to a dialog system-are war priests, clerics, incarnates (conduits of divine power), archivists (scholars), ur priests (don't worship, but steal divine magic), and... I'm open to suggestions
Are you planning of throwing in a bone to the upcoming Shaman class as well? Since it has been described as being closest to Druids, I believe creating additional kits for this class should be doable.
For example; the Witch Doctor, Mystic, or the various specialty priest kits written down in the AD&D 2nd edition's Powers and Pantheons sourcebook (such as the Ice Hunter Beast Cult Shaman of Ulutiu shaman kit) could all be placed under the Shaman class. That would free up kit slots for the Cleric and Druid classes as well.
I think the ones I have so far-been a while since I worked on it, and I need to change it to a dialog system-are war priests, clerics, incarnates (conduits of divine power), archivists (scholars), ur priests (don't worship, but steal divine magic), and... I'm open to suggestions
Are you planning of throwing in a bone to the upcoming Shaman class as well? Since it has been described as being closest to Druids, I believe creating additional kits for this class should be doable.
For example; the Witch Doctor, Mystic, or the various specialty priest kits written down in the AD&D 2nd edition's Powers and Pantheons sourcebook (such as the Ice Hunter Beast Cult Shaman of Ulutiu shaman kit) could all be placed under the Shaman class. That would free up kit slots for the Cleric and Druid classes as well.
I'm glad that you brought that up. Absolutely!
I'm a bit concerned that created shaman kits will not display at character creation, but-and I hope I don't have to eat my words here-i think that, at the very least, it should be possible to add kits via dialog, and so it should be possible to add a number of sub/hidden kits.
This is the list of classes that I would like to include:
Cleric Druid Paladin Ranger Shaman Maybe bards (if at least to add a religious themed kit or six) ... And maybe the barbarian. The eye of grumish(terrible spelling, I know) sort of sub kit would be the direction I would go here. I know in some supplements, raging is described as something of a religious experience. That might be an interesting way to distinguish the barbarian from the berserker. I can think of a few gods that would inspire the barbarian. Malar(sp), Tempos (intentional spelling difference-i believe that is how he is known among barbarians), and so on (have to check, especially the more "exotic" gods).
Are you planning of throwing in a bone to the upcoming Shaman class as well? Since it has been described as being closest to Druids, I believe creating additional kits for this class should be doable.
Yeah, I was going to mention, another decision will be whether druids get folded into this system or whether, because there are so many fewer druids kits, they can basically be left untouched. Same will go for shamans.
(It occurs to me that using druid kit slots might be a good way to get around the 9-cleric-kit-maximum; a number of mod kits could actually work well from the druid class - certainly Baervan Wildwanderer, maybe even others like Leira, Shar... Spell lists are a very surmountable problem, and druid kits give you 2-3 different levels of usability restrictions to play with. And most players tend to hate the vanilla kits anyway. So you could cannibalize them and use that class for "Mystic Priests" (which would include "Druid") while using the normal cleric class for "Formal Priests." Or something like that.)
Comments
Still, it would speed up the process. It's really a shame.
They also figured out--I have no idea how!--how to restrict spells in the clab. This mod was full of revolutionary stuff!
And the craziest thing was that it was compatible with the 'vanilla' usability system. The only thing is that they restricted items using (I forget the #) an opcode that restricts item usage by type and when you tried to use the item, it wasn't colored the same as when restricted the 'normal' way.
As for my mod...I am planning to incorporate 'real' kits and allowing deity selection in addition to kit selection via dialog and (so, so many!) hidden kits. While it will allow for a huge number of possible deities, it will probably not be compatible with other cleric kits (though, I think DR sphere compatibly is possible--I will obviously make it as compatible as possible). Even if it does allow for compatibility, kits would have to be chosen in a different way. You might first choose, say, a "War Priest". You can then select which deity--only ones for which such a kit would be plausible--you worship. If you choose Helm, say, you are then a "War Priest of Helm". Some will have unique names as special orders described in the Faiths of Farune sourcebook...
As you might guess this alone is going to take a lot of work. (I'd say that I'm about 20% done.) I also will need to tweak various dialogs, and especially the cleric stronghold quests.
I like this idea, and want to help!
I think for flavor reasons, if nothing else, the sphere system should not be identical to the school system. Also, I think some wizard spells should be used where they fit. In vanilla, what, 24 spells per level can be displayed? So, no combination of spheres for a given kit should exceed that number (almost certainly not an issue).
At the same time, we can add a number of spells because the display limit won't matter (after the 1 second delay). Actually, this should be tested, I suppose.
Ooh yeah, I think it would be cool to keep major and minor access. And perhaps druids, paladins and rangers can get in on the fun
Anyway, the fun stuff: what spheres, and what spells for each?
I could see one for each 'element' ie fire, water, air and earth. Combat. Protection. Death. Healing. Alignment based? Gotta look em up
EDIT: My thinking is evolving as I'm doing the lists Revised as of 2:20(ish) PM EST 8/11/2015
all, charm, combat, creation, divination, guardian, healing, necromantic, protection, summoning, elemental (earth), elemental (water), elemental (fire), elemental (air), animal, plant, sun, weather, good, evil, law, and chaos
That is 22 total--(!) More if I missed any!--though this includes both druid and cleric exclusives.
All: includes spells available to all divine casters: seems like it should stay (and probably absorb some others)
1
Charm: well, I could see this adding some wizard spells like charm and domination, but be restricted to Sune, and maybe a few other 'love'and perhaps 'fertility'deities. Any spells of this domain that should be universal can be switched to All (a general rule). 2
2
Combat: A must for the tempus types, no?
3
Creation: this seems like one that could be completely absorbed by All, or distributed as appropriate
3
Divination: I like the flavor, but how many good divination spells are there? Feels like another one that can go to All.
3
Guardian: Seems like it could be combined with Protection.
4
Healing: I can see this absorbing the 'positive' necromantic spells like raise dead.
5
Necromantic: I favor calling this "Death" and restricting it to the 'cleric necromancer' types (i.e. clerics of Mykrul and perhaps others) having only destructive spells like Finger of Death and Animate Dead.
6
Protection: Again, seems like it could be combined with Guardian.
6
Summoning: I'm not sure about this one. Perhaps it can be distributed among other domains, like all, animal, necromantic/death, elemental and guardian/protection?
6
Elemental (all): Seems good if elemental deities are included...Assuming that there are enough spells to warrant them...
10
Animal: Well, seems like a druid staple. Other nature oriented deities should get minor access at least. On the other hand, are there enough good spells? Perhaps "Plant" should be incorporated into a "Nature" sphere?
11
Plant: I think this one could be eliminated and its spells incorporated into the Animal sphere. EDIT: Another option is to incorporate this one into Elemental Earth...
11
Deity: Some spells could be specific to a given deity. Nobody else has access to those spells. They would have the deity's name as the sphere
11.5
Magic: Seems like there should be a Magic Sphere...
12.5
Weather: Incorporate into Air(?)
12
Alignment (All): It seems that these should be implemented, if at all, via alignment-based school exclusion flags.
Okay, well that is 13... Lets see how the spells can be distributed...
First 'draft'
I'll add in SR spells later...this is taking some time. I will also mine wizard and custom spells to fill in gaps...
I'll have to note what is available in IWDification as well
Also, I'm just going to go crazy and add a Magic sphere for now (you know, for the Mystria (sp?) types)
Also note that everything is alphabetized except Deity, which I put at the bottom
Personally, I'd like it if each sphere had at least one spell for each level...
I just discovered that there are spells in BGEE that are not in IWDEE...Strength of stone for one. I'll have to go back with those in mind...I should also mark were exclusive spells are found and put in conversion notes...time is running out, so later)
All:
Level 1:
- Bless
- Detect Evil
- Curse
Level 2:
- Aid (Necromantic, but...)
- Find Traps
- Know Alignment (heh, repetition...tempted to just assume SR)
Level 3:
- Remove Curse (It's a protection/guardian spell, but this feels like a better place for it)
- Remove Paralysis (ditto--I'm thinking about clerics that don't have at least minor access to guardian/protection. Am I wrong here?)
- Invisibility Purge
- Prayer (okay, it's a combat spell...still, what is a cleric without prayer?
- Monster Summoning I
Level 4:
- Death Ward (Not listed...might be a guardian/protection, but seems essential enough for universal availability)
- Negative Plane Protection (Was protection/necromancy...maybe it should stay there, but it is such an essential, if circumstantial, spell)
- Farsight (none listed--would probably have been divination. I like this spell, but I think it should be a lower level)
Level 5:
- True Seeing (was divination) One of the truly great divination spells.
Level 6:
Level 7:
Animal/Plant/Life?/Nature?:
Level 1:
- Entangle (Plant)
- Shillelagh (also combat, but...) (Plant)
Level 2:
- Barkskin (also protection, but...) (Plant)
- Charm Person or Mammal (animal)
- Goodberry (meh) (Plant)
- Beast Claw (Also combat, but...) (animal)
Level 3:
- Hold Animal (Meh) (animal)
- Summon Insects (animal)
- Mold Touch (plant)
Level 4:
- Animal Summoning I (feels like it should be a lower level) (animal)
- Call Woodland Being (also was summoning. Seems nature-y) (animal)
- Giant Insect (need the animations to get this into non IWD games...) (animal)
- Thorn Spray (plant)
Level 5:
- Animal Summoning II (most animals don't impress) (animal)
- Pixie Dust (combat, but it seems very nature-y)
- Insect Plague (animal)...maybe animal is okay without plant
- Animal Rage (was combat, but there are already so many similar spells there at this level)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Charm:
Level 1:
- Command
- Remove Fear
- Doom
Level 2:
- Hold Person
Level 3:
- Rigid Thinking (Law, but...)
Level 4:
- Free Action (I guess...)
- Mental Domination (was thought, but...)
- Cloak of Fear (could see this as a necro/death spell)
Level 5:
- Greater Command
- Chaotic Commands (Chaos--I'm torn between charm and guardian)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Combat:
Level 1:
- Magic Stone
Level 2:
- Chant
- Spiritual Hammer
- Draw Upon Holy Might
- Alicorn Lance
Level 3:
- Strength of One (Law but...)
- Holy Smite (could see this one being alignment restricted to good)
- Unholy Blight (evil?)
- Moonblade (Really could see this as a Selune exclusive--Will put it there as well)
Level 4:
- Holy Power (No domain listed, but this seems like a reasonable place. Shouldn't lower strength)
- Recitation
- Blood Rage
- Star Metal Cudgel
Level 5:
- Champion's Strength (Law, but this seems right)
- Righteous Magic (hmm, similar to CS...)
- Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Tempus approves!)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Elemental (Air): (Weather doesn't have much...maybe put it with air?)
Level 1:
NONE!
Level 2:
NONE!
Level 3:
- Zone of Sweet Air (meh)
- Call Lightning (was weather)
Level 4:
- Protection from Lightning (was under weather/guardian, but there are so few air spells)
- Static Charge (was weather, but it fits here)
- Cloud of Pestilence
Level 5:
Level 6:
Level 7:
Elemental (Earth):
Level 1:
- Strength of Stone (BGEE) should be easy to convert
Level 2:
NONE!
Level 3:
- Spike Growth (kinda planty too...I'm more tempted to merge the two, if only the animal sphere wasn't so...sparse)
Level 4:
NONE!
Level 5:
- Iron Skins (was listed as 'elemental') I believe SoD switches the names of stone skin and Iron skin--I like that!
- Spike Stones
Level 6:
Level 7:
Elemental (Fire):
Level 1:
NONE!
Level 2:
- Flame Blade
Level 3:
- Protection From Fire (also protection, but that one also has resist fire and cold and this one is a bit...thin)
Level 4:
- Produce Fire
Level 5:
- Flame Strike (was combat but this seems to be a better fit)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Elemental (Water):
Level 1:
NONE!
Level 2:
NONE!
Level 3:
- Cloudburst
Level 4:
- Smashing Wave
Level 5:
NONE!
Level 6:
Level 7:
Guardian/Protection:
Level 1:
- Protection From Evil
- Sanctuary
- Armor of Faith
- Protection From Good
Level 2:
- Resist Fire and Cold
- Silence, 15' Radius
Level 3:
- Glyph of Warding
Level 4:
- Defensive Harmony (was Law) I was thinking Combat, but it doesn't seem very Tempus like (and perhaps he can only grant minor access to Guardian/Protection--He'd rather attack, attack, attack, yes? )
- Protection From Evil, 10' Radius
Level 5:
- Magic Resistance
- Chaotic Commands (Chaos--I'm torn between charm and guardian)Level 6:
Level 7:
Healing:
Level 1:
- Cure Light Wounds (alter to damage undead?)
Level 2:
- Slow Poison (was necro)
- Cure Moderate Wounds (alter to damage undead?)
Level 3:
- Cure Medium Wounds (you know)
- Cure Disease (was necro)
- Exaltation (an argument can be made to put this in protection)
- Cure Serious Wounds
Level 4:
- Neutralize Poison
- Lesser Restoration (if protection from level drain isn't universal, then this should be I think)
- Unfailing Endurance (was necromancy--feels like it should be 1st level)
- Cause Serious Wounds (was healing)
Level 5:
- Cure Critical Wounds
- Raise Dead (was necro)
- Mass Cure Light Wounds (mmm, seems a bit weak)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Magic:
Level 1:
NONE!
Level 2:
NONE!
Level 3:
- Dispel Magic
- Miscast Magic
Level 4:
NONE!
Level 5:
NONE!
Level 6:
Level 7:
Necromantic/Death:
Level 1:
- Cause Light Wounds (alter to heal undead?) Was heal
Level 2:
- Cause Moderate Wounds (was heal)
Level 3:
- Animate Dead
- Cause Disease (was healing...)
- Circle of Bones (Guardian, but, but, It's bones!)
- Cause Medium Wounds
Level 4:
- Poison (was healing)
Level 5:
- Cause Critical Wounds (was healing)
- Slay Living (was combat, but this is a quintessential necro spell!)
- Repulse Undead (not listed--seems to fit. Would make a good (dark) necro spell as well...)
- Undead Ward (was ward)
- Mass Cause Light Wounds (was heal- meh)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Deity:
Level 1:
- Sunscorch (Lathander?)
- Charm Person (Sune?)
Level 2:
NONE!
Level 3:
- Moonblade(?) (Selune?)
- Storm Shell (Talos? and/or Umberlee?)
- Favor of Ilmater (Ilmater)
Level 4:
- Wall of Moonlight (Selune?) Was protection/Sun
Level 5:
- Shield of Lathander (Lathander)
Level 6:
Level 7:
Completed up to 5th level IWDEE only...
To do:
Spells level 6-7
Incorporate fitting wizard spells
Look up spells not in IWDEE (BGEE, vanilla(?), SR)
Conversion notes (especially noting IWDification conversions)
Custom spells if necessary
Match deities to spheres
Charm/mind: the only thing that I wouldn't put there is wondrous recall. That certainly fits 'mind', but not so much 'charm'. I was thinking of Sune for this domain (though, any other manipulative deity) I can understand if you might be thinking (say) Denir. But most of those spells are about manipulating others, which is not very 'god of knowledge like'. As such, this one seems like it should be for the Sune's and Lovitar's, gods that fit the spells (and also be called 'charm' for flavor and fit).
Also, I think that wondrous recall should be universal (which I'll talk more about shortly).
I would also add hold person, which is traditionally a mind affect. Granted, this is closer to 'mind' than 'charm', but I see someone like lovitar using this spell and then ... Doing terrible things
Death:I have poison, while you don't. Same with cause disease. I see how those fit 'body' better than death. I suppose that I was thinking if this as the sphere for cleric necromancers, and those two fit. Mykrul would certainly grant those spells, but I don't necessarily see him granting access to a body sphere...mmm, maybe minor access. The name escapes me, but that goddess of poison and disease wouldn't want to, IMO, grant access to cure poison and especially disease. It seems like it would be heresy to cast that for one of her followers. I think that is a good reason not to give her the body sphere, yet she should give poison and cause disease. For reason, I think death is a better place for them (as there is certainly not enough for a disease or pestilence sphere).
Nature: I like it. The only thing that sticks out for me is call lightening, and sunray, though it's not a biggie. I would like to have elemental spheres, but there doesn't seem to be many spells for that.
Posting this now, though it is incomplete. But sure if I'll have more time tonight
On a completely different tangent, I think that there should be deity specific spells that are only available to specific gods, for fun and flavor. Faiths if farune(sp?) Is an excellent source for this (and, I've already created some of them including Ilmater's waves of pain-a nasty spell that does non lethal damage over time, while holding the target).
As for deity specific spells, the special abilities of the vanilla kits are actually from the list of unique Helm, Talos, and Lathander spells. The 2e (edit: my mistake, faiths and avatars) source book is one of the best, IMO, of any edition partially because it made clerics of different faiths useful as well as unique and interesting (though i feel that DR followed that book too closely without considering the way that the game is implemented in the IE--some specialities had very small and not terribly useful lists IMO-this speaks more to the first consideration ie universal spells). I think that it would be nice to capture that 'unique and flavorful'aspect, but again this can be done in more than one way.
List of Gods: More later
But, I completely agree about restrictions and proficiencies. (And I include armor and even magic items in that category as well.)
Only going to have time to answer the kit section in your recent post (no time to read the rest--later)
We're not so far off. Not every kit can select every god. You will not find a war priest of Sune. At the same time, not all priests if tempus need be war priests. It's actually pretty close to what your describe.
I think the ones I have so far-been a while since I worked on it, and I need to change it to a dialog system-are war priests, clerics, incarnates (conduits of divine power), archivists (scholars), ur priests (don't worship, but steal divine magic), and... I'm open to suggestions
Maybe not... I'll see.
For example; the Witch Doctor, Mystic, or the various specialty priest kits written down in the AD&D 2nd edition's Powers and Pantheons sourcebook (such as the Ice Hunter Beast Cult Shaman of Ulutiu shaman kit) could all be placed under the Shaman class. That would free up kit slots for the Cleric and Druid classes as well.
I'm a bit concerned that created shaman kits will not display at character creation, but-and I hope I don't have to eat my words here-i think that, at the very least, it should be possible to add kits via dialog, and so it should be possible to add a number of sub/hidden kits.
This is the list of classes that I would like to include:
Cleric
Druid
Paladin
Ranger
Shaman
Maybe bards (if at least to add a religious themed kit or six)
... And maybe the barbarian. The eye of grumish(terrible spelling, I know) sort of sub kit would be the direction I would go here. I know in some supplements, raging is described as something of a religious experience. That might be an interesting way to distinguish the barbarian from the berserker. I can think of a few gods that would inspire the barbarian. Malar(sp), Tempos (intentional spelling difference-i believe that is how he is known among barbarians), and so on (have to check, especially the more "exotic" gods).
This is an excellent idea!