The reason that I am putting the deity information here is to try to get a sense for necessary spheres. I think that I will compile a list of all deities with their respective spheres for quick, easy comparison. Heh, I want to use SPSS for this so I can do some statistical analysis, but that seems a bit much...
I think that this is the current plan for development:
Compile list of deities and associated spheres
From that list, compile a list of spheres, and distribute spells among them (noting the substeps in that initial thread re: compatibility and spell source) Add: Identify and create additional spells as needed
Kits: List kits by category: 'Primary' Kits, and deity sub-kits Outline advantages/disadvantages for 'Primary' kits (mostly done) and sub-kits (started) Distribute Spheres by kit
Very good. That's the general plan. I'll probably be away for a bit. I'm multiposting enough in this thread as it is, and I need to create that spreadsheet.
Re copyright: That I think presupposes not having sought permission from the mod author, or even if sought, was refused. But what if earnest efforts to contact him were made? The mod apparently has been abandoned already or rather it's safe to assume that it has been; having presumably been abandoned, shouldn't it revert back to "public domain" so they can be made useful? In fact, by starting this mod, the natural presumption is that the primary intention of the mod author is so that eventually the public can make use of, benefit from, and enjoy the same. After all, no pecuniary benefit can be derived from the mod; more likely it's mainly just generosity on the part of the author. There's also of course the desire to be recognized or acknowledged as the author to the exclusion of others, which I think is the main purpose of the protection, but IMO that's just secondary and surely that would yield to the primary intention of the author (more so when he has already abandoned the same), especially when coupled with our growing clamor to turn the whole or parts of this promising mod into a usable state. Simply put, it's not unreasonable to think that the author would prefer that the work would be continued in one form or another than to allow it to simply die and be forgotten, especially when he has not made reservations to the contrary.
I don't think there's a hard and fast rule against mod copyright infringement; as always, circumstances are to be considered. I would like to believe we are in the right here.
Quickly. I'll read the copyright thread more closely. Maybe it'd be best to ask @Dee
Dee, here is what I want to do. I would like to continue development of this mod, which appears to have been abandoned by the original authors. I am happy to try to contact the original authors, but under the assumption that they do not respond, would it be okay if I did this if, say, I credit the original authors, link to their original mod, and if, at some future date, the original authors ask me to remove it, I do so? This is a great start, and I would hate to see it die. But at the same time, I certainly don't want to steal their work.
@subtledoctor From the little bit I read, that is the basic idea. There will be more deity kits than basic kits, so to avoid display issues, I was going to make deity selection via dialog. Edit: I'll read the rest and respond not fully later
... On my back burner, I want to figure out whether we can disable a kit from learning arcane spells from scrolls. (I do it with my necromancy spells, but I think that involves spell school restrictions in addition to item usability, and I don't want to mess with spell schools.)
But if there is a way to prevent or discourage bards from deleting their divine spells and replacing them with arcane spells, then it would be simple to set up bard kits that work according to the sphere system. Then the trickiest but most interesting thing would be developing bard songs to replace Turn Undead.
It's more than just scroll learning (I think that that may be possible with the opcodes that prevent item use). It's spell selection on creation in both BGII, and ToB (and possibly Heart of Winter--it's been a while). Higher level bards select spells at creation as wizards. It may (may, may, may) be possible to set bard spell slots to zero, and then give them back with a delayed spl in the clab...not sure. I know if an arcane class doesn't have spell slots, then they won't select spells. Also, this may be frustrating for players that want to play an arcane bard in one of those games and actually have spells...
Edit: though, it would be easy to give those players their spells via dialog, so maybe this is worth exploring...
Going through the various gods, there are a few that would be appropriate for a bard, however. It might be best to just give arcane versions of appropriate spells/spheres to the chanter/hymnist/cantor/whatever bards.
Edit 2: add far as giving paladins and rangers evil options, this is easy in bgee. If a class has the black guard usability and an evil alignment, then it will not fall. So, rangers worshipping Malar (eg) are totally possible. In vanilla, it might work by messing around with the fallen kits, and automatically making noon good paladins and rangers fall just after creation. Might be possible to create grey guards in both vanilla and bgee doing this. It's worth exploring
Was his intent originally to sell? I mean, anyone can state later their intent was to profit. I think it is a simple, you asked, it has been abandoned, if he comes back and demands you to remove it...then you do.
I was thinking of the bams, as well as some of the kits (though I haven't looked at the code in a while either). Right now, all of the spells created in TnB have stand-ins. My main concern was time. feel more confident about getting this done in a reasonable amount of time, however, with @subtledoctor on board. I may have another solution for the bam situation, anyway. I think I'd rather just use mod for inspiration as we seem to be going in a slightly different direction, and SD brings up good points. No need to complicate things. I think once development is completed, the rest will get done quickly. Also, it's not the end of the world if the first few builds have stand-in bams
Speaking of development, I should have the deity list created later today, or tomorrow. My hope is to upload the list and decide on the spheres sometime after that.
Attached please find the spreadsheet. Note that this doesn't include demihuman (and orc) gods at the moment.
Some oddities: Priests of Gond only have minor access to creation. Add to that that, one of their exclusive spells is a 6th level creation spell. (Can they cast it, or not?) Also, Selune grants her Guides both major and minor access to charm. Okay. Also, Helm, the most lawful god in the realms, doesn't have access to Law(?)
Spheres start at column G.
Also, it looks like we cross posted. Cool. Looks like a good list. Now let's start matching gods to those domains!
Just looked at the IWDEE spell list. So many, and so great! We can make a much better set of spheres if we include them. Is there any confirmation that they will make their way to BGEE in the 1.4 patch?
Only problem is, I think there are more and better spells there than are provided in the IWDification mod. So players on the vanilla engine won't have as good an experience. Not the end of the world, though.
I went through the wizard spell list, and there are some which could be converted to priest spells as well. Only some, though - I think some things (illusions, monster summoning, etc.) should really be left to wizards. But divinations, necromancy, and some direct-damage stuff would work well as priest spells.
Maybe some metamagic stuff as well, but only very select priest kits should get access to that stuff. Like single-class followers of Mystra and Azuth.
I'll update this post with a new list of proposed spheres once I draw up new lists with arcane and iwdee spells.
EDIT: here's another rough sphere list, including IWDEE spells and a dozen or so arcane spells. 16 spheres is getting into the right ballpark. Any given kit could have ~10-14 minor access and ~4-8 major access.
- DEATH: 1. larloch's minor drain...?? 2. ray of enfeeblement 3. circle of bones 3. animate dead 3. hold undead 5. slay living 7. finger of death -> 6? 7. resurrection 7. symbol: death
- AIR/SKY: 1. sunscorch 3. zone of sweet air -> 2? 3. cloudburst 3. storm shell 3. call lightning 4. ice storm 4. wall of moonlight 4. static charge 4. protection from lightning 6. entropy shield 6. false dawn 6. whirlwind 7. mist of eldath 7. sunray
- FIRE: 2. flame sword -> 1? 2. scorcher 2. resist fire/cold 3. flame arrow 3. protection from fire 4. produce fire 5. flame strike 6. conjure fire elemental 6. fire seeds 7. firestorm
- MAGIC: 2. silence 3. dispel magic 3. minor spell deflection 4. secret word 5. breach 5. minor spell turning 6. globe of invulnerability 6. wondrous recall 7. ruby ray 7. shield of the archons
I'm feeling a bit bug-eyed at the moment. I see that there are some questions here. I'll take a look a bit later.
Sorry, I didn't clarify that. The question marks are suggestions to change the level of a spell, both to fill out the spheres and for general balance reasons. E.g., People always comment that 7th level Summon Earth Elemental is weaker that the 6th level Summon Fire Elemental... add to that the fact that the Earth/Nature sphere now has the far superior Stalker at 7th level (2 shambling mounds), thus I suggest simply dropping Earth Elemental to become a 6th level spell.
Also, remind me, does "minor access" mean 1st to 3rd level spells, or 1st to 4th?
I see. Well, we have a few options. I think we should leave any spells that sr fixes alone. Otherwise, I'm fine with changing levels if that is the best solution (though, we could also improve the offending spells ourselves.--whatever works best case by case).
Also, I meant to say that if SoDS doesn't add Icewind Dale spells, I plan to. Arcane spells will be added in TnB, and divine in this mod (what are we calling it, BTW?)
Well, we can call it "Defenders of the faith", which follows the 'spirit'of TnB (both are 3e source books devoted to divine and arcane classes respectively)
I'd like to recommend a change in specialization restrictions. A recent edition, I forget which, came up with opposition schools that I feel actually make sense.
Abjuration/Evocation, because one defends and the other attacks Illusion/Divination, because one conceals and the other reveals Enchantment/Transmutation, because manipulates minds and the other manipulates matter Conjuration/Necromancy, because one creates living things and the other raises dead things
I especially think the Divination/Illusion divide makes much more sense than the BG2 original.
As for school oppositions, I agree that those oppositions seem moe reasonable. Or rather, I would agree if I wanted to keep opposition schools (I agree with SD--i don't like opposition schools at all). That said, it's still a request that could go in the TnB thread. I will say that the divination/illusion opposition works with the second eyes (still looking for a better name) spell, which isn't so useful with conjuration spells barred. In any case, the goal is to increase options/fun, so I think there is a chance that could get implemented as an optional component.
Comments
"Using someone else's work in your own work without their permission is stealing, and... (irrelevant).... Both are against site rules."
So, that is that. This just means that this mod is going to take a while.
The reason that I am putting the deity information here is to try to get a sense for necessary spheres. I think that I will compile a list of all deities with their respective spheres for quick, easy comparison. Heh, I want to use SPSS for this so I can do some statistical analysis, but that seems a bit much...
I think that this is the current plan for development:
Compile list of deities and associated spheres
From that list, compile a list of spheres, and distribute spells among them
(noting the substeps in that initial thread re: compatibility and spell source)
Add: Identify and create additional spells as needed
Kits: List kits by category: 'Primary' Kits, and deity sub-kits
Outline advantages/disadvantages for 'Primary' kits (mostly done) and sub-kits (started)
Distribute Spheres by kit
Very good. That's the general plan. I'll probably be away for a bit. I'm multiposting enough in this thread as it is, and I need to create that spreadsheet.
That I think presupposes not having sought permission from the mod author, or even if sought, was refused. But what if earnest efforts to contact him were made? The mod apparently has been abandoned already or rather it's safe to assume that it has been; having presumably been abandoned, shouldn't it revert back to "public domain" so they can be made useful? In fact, by starting this mod, the natural presumption is that the primary intention of the mod author is so that eventually the public can make use of, benefit from, and enjoy the same. After all, no pecuniary benefit can be derived from the mod; more likely it's mainly just generosity on the part of the author. There's also of course the desire to be recognized or acknowledged as the author to the exclusion of others, which I think is the main purpose of the protection, but IMO that's just secondary and surely that would yield to the primary intention of the author (more so when he has already abandoned the same), especially when coupled with our growing clamor to turn the whole or parts of this promising mod into a usable state. Simply put, it's not unreasonable to think that the author would prefer that the work would be continued in one form or another than to allow it to simply die and be forgotten, especially when he has not made reservations to the contrary.
I don't think there's a hard and fast rule against mod copyright infringement; as always, circumstances are to be considered. I would like to believe we are in the right here.
Quickly. I'll read the copyright thread more closely. Maybe it'd be best to ask @Dee
Dee, here is what I want to do. I would like to continue development of this mod, which appears to have been abandoned by the original authors. I am happy to try to contact the original authors, but under the assumption that they do not respond, would it be okay if I did this if, say, I credit the original authors, link to their original mod, and if, at some future date, the original authors ask me to remove it, I do so? This is a great start, and I would hate to see it die. But at the same time, I certainly don't want to steal their work.
@subtledoctor
From the little bit I read, that is the basic idea. There will be more deity kits than basic kits, so to avoid display issues, I was going to make deity selection via dialog.
Edit: I'll read the rest and respond not fully later
Edit: though, it would be easy to give those players their spells via dialog, so maybe this is worth exploring...
Going through the various gods, there are a few that would be appropriate for a bard, however. It might be best to just give arcane versions of appropriate spells/spheres to the chanter/hymnist/cantor/whatever bards.
Edit 2: add far as giving paladins and rangers evil options, this is easy in bgee. If a class has the black guard usability and an evil alignment, then it will not fall. So, rangers worshipping Malar (eg) are totally possible. In vanilla, it might work by messing around with the fallen kits, and automatically making noon good paladins and rangers fall just after creation. Might be possible to create grey guards in both vanilla and bgee doing this. It's worth exploring
Some oddities: Priests of Gond only have minor access to creation. Add to that that, one of their exclusive spells is a 6th level creation spell. (Can they cast it, or not?) Also, Selune grants her Guides both major and minor access to charm. Okay. Also, Helm, the most lawful god in the realms, doesn't have access to Law(?)
Spheres start at column G.
Also, it looks like we cross posted. Cool. Looks like a good list. Now let's start matching gods to those domains! I'm feeling a bit bug-eyed at the moment. I see that there are some questions here. I'll take a look a bit later.
Also, I meant to say that if SoDS doesn't add Icewind Dale spells, I plan to. Arcane spells will be added in TnB, and divine in this mod (what are we calling it, BTW?)
Minor access is level .1-3 I believe
Abjuration/Evocation, because one defends and the other attacks
Illusion/Divination, because one conceals and the other reveals
Enchantment/Transmutation, because manipulates minds and the other manipulates matter
Conjuration/Necromancy, because one creates living things and the other raises dead things
I especially think the Divination/Illusion divide makes much more sense than the BG2 original.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains
As for school oppositions, I agree that those oppositions seem moe reasonable. Or rather, I would agree if I wanted to keep opposition schools (I agree with SD--i don't like opposition schools at all). That said, it's still a request that could go in the TnB thread. I will say that the divination/illusion opposition works with the second eyes (still looking for a better name) spell, which isn't so useful with conjuration spells barred. In any case, the goal is to increase options/fun, so I think there is a chance that could get implemented as an optional component.
Hi! Are you guys still planning to improve this mod?
Do you have any suggestions?
Edit: My mistake. I thought you posed in the FnP thread. No, we aren't updating this mod. We have started from scratch, here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/43174/faiths-and-powers-gods-of-the-realms-kitpack-and-divine-caster-spell-tweaks#latest
(though I would be thrilled if @Mordeus would give me permission to use the material here!)
I can even test something if you need it.
That can be arranged!