Dragon disciple questions

tireal27

Hey all!
Long time player, first time poster here. I was pretty intrigued when I saw they included DD in the last patch. Never having played one before, I'm curious as to if the DD can really stand on it's own as a melee class with spell casting abilities. In other words, would it be possible to solo with a DD?
Thanks!

Lord_Tansheron

The vanilla came can pretty easily be solo'd by every class/kit. Being a more resilient Sorcerer, DD shouldn't have any problems soloing the game.

TJ_Hooker

I don't think DDs would be particularly great in melee. Sure, they may have a bit more survivability due to d6 hit dice and an extra point or 2 of AC, but they will still be pretty bad at dishing out any of their own (at least until Tenser's Transformation in BG2). Overall I'd still treat them like you would a mage or normal sorcerer, and try to avoid direct combat.

SpaceInvader

As @Lord_Tansheron said, yes you can solo the game with every class.
But wait, being able to solo the game with a DD doesn't mean it can "stand it's own as a melee".
Dragon Disciple is a spellcaster. Nothing less, nothing more.
Few HP and AC bonus points won't make it a melee class for sure.

secretmantra

Yep, played one. I like it. But a melee class, it is not. If you solo with one, you'll be getting tricky and doing lots of running, if you're smart.

KidCarnival

I tried playing a DD as more melee oriented. It's pointless; the AC bonus doesn't do much and you still have way too few HP to be effective. You survive a bit more if you use touch spells and don't immediately have to withdraw to backrow, but that's it. In BG2, with the right spells, I can see it work better, but it's not a good choice for a melee caster. Fighter/Mage or Cleric is way better for that.

SpaceInvader

See, the point is not how many attacks the DD can take before collapsing.
By using the correct spells it can protect himself from almost everything the game throws at him. Still, HP and AC are of secondary importance.
What really doesn't make it a melee class is the fact that 1 pip in a "weak" weapon and no pips at all in any combat style will never allow a decent perfomance.

Fardragon

For an experienced player, using short range and touch spells makes an interesting alternative, and the Dragon Disciple is better equipped for this style of play than a vanilla mage or sorc. Indeed, there is little point in playing a DD in any other way, since it is an inferior caster to a vanilla sorc. It will be quite challenging to play in BG1 though, and I wouldn't recomend it for solo. In BG2, Tensers Transformation and Black Blade of Disaster make this a much more powerful option.

SpaceInvader

@Fardragon I still don't get why a DD should be better in melee than a normal Sorc.
Because of the lower AC? They will hit you anyway, 2/3 AC points won't make any difference.
Because of the HP? You will cast Stoneskin/Mirror Image/Contingecies to protect yourself before using TT.

[Deleted User]

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Fardragon

SpaceInvader said:

@Fardragon I still don't get why a DD should be better in melee than a normal Sorc.
Because of the lower AC? They will hit you anyway, 2/3 AC points won't make any difference.
Because of the HP? You will cast Stoneskin/Mirror Image/Contingecies to protect yourself before using TT.

Having more AC and hp is ALWAYS going to be more survivable than fewer HP and worse AC. Sure, the difference isn't huge, but if you AREN'T going to put yourself in the line of fire more often, then there isn't any point in playing a Dragon Discipe rather than a sorcerer.

SpaceInvader

I tend to play in 2 ways: a) multiplayer with some guys of this forum and b) in solo.

In both situations, in terms of survivability, I'd prefer to have +1 Magic Missile/Mirror Image/Skulltrap/Stoneskin rather than 2 AC points and 10 to 20 HP more.

Consider the DD right now:

- reptile heritage

- breath weapon (hopefully will be fixed soon)

- improved AC, but still squishy

- 1Attack/Round, veeery slow



You are going to send this thing in a melee fight...

theperm222

Give your DD use any item using shadowkeeper along with 1 pip in 2h swords... make them an elf with 18 str and 19 dex and decent con... minimum 14, since you will get 1 from tome and 1 bonus at level 5, giving you 16 con and 8hp per level.

Slap on a 2h sword...elf will also get a bonus to hit with swords. If you want you can also go longsword and shield for some more AC. Give yourself the 1st level spell shield and grab the ring of wizardry right away (in the tree next to friendly arm inn... gives double 1st level spells).

Your guy will be so so in combat, but shield bonus + extra AC will make them a little more survivable. Once you hit 19 str will be better. It will be difficult, but possible.

If you need advice on adding use any item, see my thread Using Restricted Weapons... if you don't want to cheat that in, you can also get by with a pip in quarterstaves, but will be a little more difficult.

theperm222

Keep in mind 19 str isn't until end game, and starting out with 16 con might be better since the early levels you are super squishy.

bill_zagoudis

i don't think he meant if he can be effective at auto-attacking but rather if he can survive and cast effectively in mellee range

it's not the best of ideas to stand mellee and cast due to interruptions mostly but he certainly can do it better than vanilla sorc

endgame he's a sorc with +5 ac +20Hp and fire immunity so without spell protections he's not that durable

theperm222

If your looking to go toe to toe after all your spells run out though every little bit helps, even though thac0 and apr is pretty sucky.

SpaceInvader

theperm222 said:

Give your DD use any item using shadowkeeper along with 1 pip in 2h swords... make them an elf with 18 str and 19 dex and decent con... minimum 14, since you will get 1 from tome and 1 bonus at level 5, giving you 16 con and 8hp per level.

Slap on a 2h sword...elf will also get a bonus to hit with swords. If you want you can also go longsword and shield for some more AC. Give yourself the 1st level spell shield and grab the ring of wizardry right away (in the tree next to friendly arm inn... gives double 1st level spells).

Your guy will be so so in combat, but shield bonus + extra AC will make them a little more survivable. Once you hit 19 str will be better. It will be difficult, but possible.

If you need advice on adding use any item, see my thread Using Restricted Weapons... if you don't want to cheat that in, you can also get by with a pip in quarterstaves, but will be a little more difficult.

This post made my day.

And now to the serious stuff...

bill_zagoudis said:

i don't think he meant if he can be effective at auto-attacking but rather if he can survive and cast effectively in mellee range

it's not the best of ideas to stand mellee and cast due to interruptions mostly but he certainly can do it better than vanilla sorc

endgame he's a sorc with +5 ac +20Hp and fire immunity so without spell protections he's not that durable

The point is that with +1 spell per level you can survive more than with +5 AC and 20 HP.

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DarKelP

SpaceInvader said:

The point is that with +1 spell per level you can survive more than with +5 AC and 20 HP.

I absolutely agree. DD is a little disappointing...

OneAngryMushroom

Put enough protections spell on A DD(or anything for that matter) and it will become impossible to hit, it won't ultra-hitting tank buster but it'lll get the job done.

theperm222

@SpaceInvader it's a trade off. Yes spells are more useful, but people want a little more variety. Not saying the class benefits are ideal, but it's definitely a viable option, and fun to roleplay as something else. Besides, if you've played the game umpteen gazillion times before, you might get bored and want to do something a little different.

SpaceInvader

@theperm222 don't get me wrong, I love the RP concept of the Dragon Disciple.
I was contesting its "supposed usefulness" in a melee fight, compared to that of any other arcane spellcaster class

theperm222

@SpaceInvader understood...:) I def think the class would have benefited better if it had strength bonuses (as opposed to CON) and a little better THACO progression... maybe even just the mage THACO plus 1 thac0 and +1 AC every 5 levels similar to a swashy. And of course my biggest disappointment is the lack of weapon choice associated with Mages... I wonder if it's possible to mod the kit at all to make it work like that.

SpaceInvader

@theperm222 I agree and yes, it is possibile to mod it.

Thermos

I'm using a DD for my first play through, so I don't have much to compare it to, but I do love that when I run out of spells I can still breath fire into enemies faces! I also rest pretty often so don't find myself running on 0 spells much. I suppose if you play with minimal resting the 1 less per day would be a bigger obstacle. I've yet to have a fight last long enough for me to use all my spells in a single fight, so it's really up to me whether I want to keep going with few spells or rest up and have a full arsenal. Maybe later in the game (I just returned to Candlekeep, I don't know if that's close to the end or not) there will be super epic fights that last long enough to go through all my spells, but I find that hard to believe, since I'm also going to be at a higher level and have even more spells per day than I do now. Plus I already have an absurd number of scrolls and wands, so I'm actually pretty eager to have to use some of those.

theperm222

@SpaceInvader sweet, do you know how I would go about doing that? I was thinking maybe taking a swashy using shadowkeeper and seeing what active effects they have and just copying it into my DD's character... or would something like NearInfinity (never used it before) work better?

Fardragon

SpaceInvader said:

@theperm222 don't get me wrong, I love the RP concept of the Dragon Disciple.
I was contesting its "supposed usefulness" in a melee fight, compared to that of any other arcane spellcaster class

It's not so much being useful in melee, it's more a case of being even less useful when NOT in melee.

SpaceInvader

Fardragon said:

It's not so much being useful in melee, it's more a case of being even less useful when NOT in melee.

Casting more spells is the solution for both.

theperm222

Or modding the kit... (evil grin)

DarKelP

theperm222 said:

@SpaceInvader understood...:) I def think the class would have benefited better if it had strength bonuses (as opposed to CON) and a little better THACO progression... maybe even just the mage THACO plus 1 thac0 and +1 AC every 5 levels similar to a swashy. And of course my biggest disappointment is the lack of weapon choice associated with Mages... I wonder if it's possible to mod the kit at all to make it work like that.

It would be awesome. I wish it were like that

Madhax

Assuming the devs don't modify the kit before BG2EE, I might change my own character around. Bonus strength instead of constitution, and I might edit in a point in 2-handed swords and 2-handed weapon style.

I don't really care if that's overpowered. Maybe I'll drop another spell cast per level to compensate.