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Raise Dead vs. Resurrection

HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,644
Ok, I don't remember in BG2 the point where one could get the 7th level clerical spell Resurrection (is it even in the game)?

When we played AD&D 1st Edition, way back in the day in college, Elves could not be brought back to life by a raise dead spell. They needed a priest who could cast Resurrection, which often meant they were out of luck unless you were in good with not just a high priest, but one a couple steps higher.

I think Gary Gygax deemed this a must for elves due to the almost mythical nature of their race. Unaging, Almost akin to Wood Nymphs - something not natural.

I generally modify the BG:EE XP cap so I can get a cleric with 5th level spells. (Not to kill Drizzt with Werebears - don't worry). I read the description of Raise Dead and saw that elves are included in it.

I guess my question is - Was this changed in AD&D 2nd Edition? Or just in Baldur's Gate? Also wouldn't mind some old school gamers' thoughts on it. I guess its an ok change, but it was for our gaming table, one of the few disadvantages of playing the otherwise awesome elven race.

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Not exactly sure when it was changed, but my guess is that it's a BG thing, because Icewind Dale *does* have those restrictions.

    Also, yes, the 7th level spell is in BG2 and can be learned by druids/clerics at the appropriate level. The only difference between it and the lower level spell is that the target comes back with full health.

    BG resurrection does not implement any of the PnP "special effects" like rolling against shock, or the racial restrictions you mentioned.

    It's not the only spell with such simplification, I think. There's a point where the complexity of PnP is detrimental to the video game experience, especially considering people with no D&D experience whatsoever play BG, too.
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    IIRC the restriction is in IWD but not in ID2 - made it very expensive to raise an elf in IWD (compared to raise dead at the temple - several thousand I think vs a few hundred depending on level)

    Of ccourse another great advantage of raise dead is it's easier to spell... ;-)
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Yeah the elven restriction from Raise Dead was definitely still in the 2E PNP rules. Not sure of the whole thought process on changing it for BG, but simplicity probably was a big part of it!
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    That is a piece of 2E lore that I was unaware of!

    Is it easier to raise Gnomes, Dwarves and Halflings because they are smaller? Or do Clerics get more practice with these races as they die far more commonly than Elves...

    And it must easy peasy to raise a human as they are always popping back up as zombies, skeletons, mummies, ghouls and vampires that it almost gets boring... Why no dwarven vampires!

    They can suck on the juicy leg of goodness!
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    I forget the actual reason, but part of it is that they come from a completely different dimension outside the current cosmology (which is why AO has no power over the Elven or Orc Deities, they simply respected his authority and went on vacation during the time of troubles)...however that also applies to the gnomes...Garl Glittergold, a originally Human Deity who became lost in another cosmology due to a battle between the founder gods, befriended the gnomes, who were horribly oppressed in their world and brought them to this one to save them and became their Patron God, eventually taking the form of a Gnome himself, and eventually raising other notable Gnomes to the new Pantheon.



    Orcs come from the same dimension as elves, and were constantly at war with one another...the original elves came to this cosmology when Corelion Latherion and Gruumesh's battle began to tear their Realm apart, eventually splitting it into the Orc and Elven planes, but the change was extremely destructive, and they were forced to bring all their people they could to this universe to save them.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Funny. The rationale was something along the lines of which races have "souls" and which have "spirits". Apparently souls are easier to recall to the living than spirits. Elves, Nymphs, Dryads, etc were considered spirit races (the very long-lived nature type races). While most other sentient life had souls. I think this started as a Tolkein thing, but its been a while since I gave the matter any thought!
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    atcDave said:

    I think this started as a Tolkein thing

    Pretty sure there are no resurrections in Tolkien lore, except as undead. No spirit vs. soul distinctions, either.
  • theperm222theperm222 Member Posts: 84
    Except maybe Gandalf... damn wizard always comes back. Oh sorry, spoiler.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387

    atcDave said:

    I think this started as a Tolkein thing

    Pretty sure there are no resurrections in Tolkien lore, except as undead. No spirit vs. soul distinctions, either.
    Not sure of its origin then. Its probably borrowed from some fiction or mythology, its a little involved to be native to D&D.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    The original D&D was influenced by many things, from literature to film to popular culture. Perhaps the idea was in there somewhere, in some form or another, and the D&D guys just liked it because it was cool. That was the main motivation behind it all - just create something fun and awesome, to realize your imagination. It didn't have to make sense, or be balanced.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    No doubt, D&D originally drew from so many different traditions. I was always a big fan of Classical and Arthurian mythology, while several of my friends were more into Tolkein, Lovecraft, or Leiber. The game provided a framework where we could both play and share our favorite stories.

    But geez, trying to figure out now what's what and who's who is a major challenge!
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I personally put down the original decision about Elves as another way to make them less desirable to play than humans. In Basic and Advanced Gary and the rest artificially created a strong push for the player to play Human. This represented in class and level restrictions for non-human races as well as the 'Bonus' of being able to Dual class for humans. The developers originally intended it to be a heavily Human-centric world and only wanted the occasional non-human character. Later editions changed that focus entirely. This may have been a legacy of those original design plans.

    As for me, I think the BG change from 2E was primarily for ease of approachability. Because you don't get to pick and choose when you encounter what companions and who or what they are, it was probably perceived that limiting Elves in that way would be unfair to the player. After all, you will never get a cleric in BG1 high enough to cast Resurrect, so what's the point? They "Could" have simply made it more money at the temple, but I suspect that they instead just said "Level the playing field and make everyone capable of being raised" Just a guess on my part, but it seems to fit the facts.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376


    Also, yes, the 7th level spell is in BG2 and can be learned by druids/clerics at the appropriate level. The only difference between it and the lower level spell is that the target comes back with full health.

    For what it is worth, one difference is that the resurrection spell can be used on living targets as basically a ranged heal spell so it is a bit more versatile.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    That is correct. The same goes for the Rod of Resurrection, by the way, making it a VERY potent item. It can heal anyone in the party to 100%, takes no cast time, and has a very long range.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376

    That is correct. The same goes for the Rod of Resurrection, by the way, making it a VERY potent item. It can heal anyone in the party to 100%, takes no cast time, and has a very long range.

    If they continue to allow projected images, etc. to use items, this makes the rod of resurrection an absolute powerhouse in the hands of a mage.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    AHF said:


    Also, yes, the 7th level spell is in BG2 and can be learned by druids/clerics at the appropriate level. The only difference between it and the lower level spell is that the target comes back with full health.

    For what it is worth, one difference is that the resurrection spell can be used on living targets as basically a ranged heal spell so it is a bit more versatile.
    LOL. I'd have never ever thought to do this. Still won't, but it is funny none the less.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited March 2013
    It is a very popular tactic in BG2 in conjunction with Vhailor's Helm; make a Simulacrum with Rod equipped -> proceed to spam 100% heals all over the place without using actual charges. Yeah, totally not overpowered :P
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