As far as the whole "balance" thing goes with Jaheira, I always figured that she just thought it wasn't good to be in the limelight on either extreme ( good/evil ). At least when it came to reputation.
I kind of understand that. I wouldn't want the whole city of Baldur's Gate knowing I'm hanging out in town doing all kinds of good and random acts. It's kind of counter productive to what you're trying to do.
Same thing for evil and low reputation. So to me, staying in the average or popular range makes sense. Out of site, out of mind type of thing.
The problem with people seeing themselves as evil, it's an objective vs. subjective thing. No one sees themselves as evil because they think they have good reasons for doing what they do. People from the outside generally aren't looking at things with the rose-colored glasses of personal excuses. Killing can be justified in many ways, from the "he killed all these people, he had to die." to "This person disrespected me, in order for me to be taken seriously, I can't let that stand. So I had to kill him to send an example to others. In a way, I'm saving other lives by showing people what happens when you disrespect me. If you want to live, don't disrespect me."
In a way, people who play "smart evil" are doing it for evil reasons, but just like the outside observer, the people around them can't tell that they are only doing it to provide cover for themselves. It's like doing good deeds because it gives you something (like Constantine in the movie with Keanu Reeves, who helps people only to score himself "good points" so he can go to Heaven, rather than Hell (which he found out about when he committed suicide as a teenager). At the end of the movie, he finally helps someone altruistically, and when he nearly dies, he really does end up in Heaven- because he DIDN'T do it as a calculated act. Actually, I've also met people who do this in real life, who only do good deeds because it racks them up brownie points in Heaven. Whereas, I just do a good deed because it makes me feel happy to help people, not because, "Ooh, I did six more good Deeds today! I get upgraded to a Limo in the afterlife!"
I still think that especially the "smart evil" types would not see themselves as "evil" and therefore be proud of their deeds (which others would obviously still find evil) and not want to cover them up with deeds they personally disagree with. As example, Edwin tells you that Dynaheir is "evil" and therefore, you shouldn't trust her. With no word does he indicate he sees himself as evil. Eldoth, while being upfront about his intent to blackmail, also frames his plan as "rescuing Skie from her controlling father". In their minds, they ARE the good guys. Doing the opposite of what they suggest is the "bad thing" for them.
As out of universe example, take Magneto. His goal is to "create a world where mutants can live in peace". He absolutely thinks of himself as a hero. In his mind, it's not "evil" that his way to create this world includes killing all non-mutants (or at least it's an acceptable casualty) because the non-mutants ARE the evil ones. He does not want to be famous for saving humans and being seen as a great guy. To him, it would mean being famous for aiding the enemy, and that's the last thing he'd want.
Absolutely rubbish! Edwin would know that spells and abilities like Detect Evil exist, and would test them on himself - and would know that he is evil! And he would know if Dynaheir is evil or not, accordingly!
Edwin says that Dynaheir is "evil" in order to manipulate you, nothing more, nothing less. And of course he is not going to come out and say "of course I am evil!" - I mean, he is "smart evil!", obviously! So he sells himself well.
Yes, but he will not think "oh my, I'm such a villain, people should kill ME!" Same as Dorn, who embraces the evil aspect most out of all NPCs, but he is also certain that he does the "right thing". The Red Wizards want, ultimately, to dominate the world because they think that's "best for the world"/their way to rule is the "best". Evil NPCs are aware of how others percieve them (in most cases, not so sure about Xzar), but it is not how they see themselves. Being "evil" is not "bad" to them. Some will think they are just misunderstood by the world (Dorn, Viconia), others will think the lowly monkeys just don't get their genius (Edwin, Tiax), Xzar does probably neither know nor care what others think about him, but none thinks that being evil is wrong or shameful.
No, Edwin does not think he is a villain that people should kill - but he knows that he is evil and that others would most likely wish to kill him if they could (because that is what he would like to do to others, preferably with fire - foom!). Of course he regards himself as superior to others, both in power and intellect. His ego knows no bounds, apparently. The classical egomaniac. He is arrogant and harbors dislike bordering on hatred for those who do not recognize him as being better (in every way). He does not think that rules apply to himself, only to others IMHO.
Dorn does not think he is misunderstood! He KNOWS that he has made an evil pact with a demon! He admits to having killed women and children! He knows without a doubt that he is evil to the core. I have no doubt that he knows that he is a villain and that others wish him dead. This was his choice, you see? He readily made a pact with a demon for the power to extract REVENGE! He is on the road to hell - meifumado (although in his case, the road to the Abyss). Of all the NPCs, I think that Dorn is most aware that he is damned (evil) and that it is in that sense "wrong" - he knows that killing women and children is bad but he chose this way, and has accepted the consequences. I rather suspect that in the end, he will regret his decision...demons are not nice creatures.
Viconia is a special case, because she is Drow. Born into an evil society, and forced to do evil things. However, even she was incapable of doing what Dorn did - kill a child, a baby. We know that Viconia can change alignment, given the chance and means. There was a thread kicking around, that described Viconia as being one of those rare "innocent souls" somewhere...
She is evil, but is capable of learning not to be so. This, of all the others, is what makes her case special IMHO. So I think that Viconia can learn to see that her ways are wrong, and adopt other, better ways. Of course, we do know that her fears are justified - Lolth never tires of seeking out those who have left her, especially her Clerics, and exacting revenge...which actually does happen in one ending.
Now for Magneto - Magneto is a special case here. Magneto is very intelligent, somewhat wise (though arrogant), and very powerful. His...personality and philosophy were broken and burned into him in the horror that was Auschwitz. Magneto's experiences surviving Nazi Germany, Auschwitz, and Vinnytsia shaped his outlook on the situation that mutants face in the Marvel Universe. He is what his environment has made him. And as a Mutant, he cannot escape it. I personally think that he cannot. It is perhaps the one thing that Magneto cannot rise above - his own past.
Does he consider himself evil? He certainly is aware that he does evil things (he even mentions this to Rogue as she is to be consumed by his machine - "a weak consolation for you, I am sure, but a necessary one"), so as you see, he deems such "necessary". In other words, the ends justifies the means, and Magneto is ruthless when it comes to using means, any means, to accomplish his goals. So he knows that such means are indeed "bad", and he is aware that they are detrimental to those who are affected by them negatively, but he is willing to use them if they accomplish what he wishes.
You didn't really understand what I said. They are not ashamed of being evil. They have no reason to want a reputation as goody two shoes because they are proud of their evil deeds. They (Dorn more than anyone) wants to brag with the crimes. That is what this discussion is about, if those evil people would want to hide being evil.
I would think a lot of the people that D&D would classify as evil would view the world in a way so that they would not perceive themselves as either "evil" (set apart from "good") or "good" (doing what is right for humanity):
* All men are selfish and corrupt. Some 'holier than thou' types try to put on airs but at the end of the day they are just as selfish as I am. I am just honest about it.
* There is no good or evil. There is only strong or weak. It is meant to be that the strong should thrive while the weak flounder. I will be strong.
* There is no good or evil. We are all animals and just follow the instincts that the gods gave us.
* All that matters is the ends and not the means. I am going to take care of myself and those that I love and if I have to do things that other people don't approve of...so be it.
* There will always be a black market. The law tries to suppress certain appetites and desires of people -- to make them live up to some kind of artificial ideal that even many of the so-called "good" don't live up to. Someone will always supply what is desired. Why shouldn't I be that person, especially when the margins are this good?
You didn't really understand what I said. They are not ashamed of being evil. They have no reason to want a reputation as goody two shoes because they are proud of their evil deeds. They (Dorn more than anyone) wants to brag with the crimes. That is what this discussion is about, if those evil people would want to hide being evil.
They have every reason to want a popular reputation (doesn't mean they have a reputation as goody two shoes because rep is high, you know). Then their evil deeds do indeed get spread wide and far across the land.
High rep /= goody two shoes necessarily.
I, however, do not see Dorn wanting to brag about his "crimes". He accepts what he is. And enjoys it, no less. This is why in my party Dorna does most of the killing and beating of innocents. We do things that make us popular, then kill and rob innocents in the process! It really is a win-win situation for my Team Evil! They love us, and shout and encourage our bloodletting and evil-doing further along!
I'm sure the Bards are singing tales of Dorna's infamy in every Tavern across the Sword Coast!
@AHF - "* There is no good or evil. There is only strong or weak. It is meant to be that the strong should thrive while the weak flounder. I will be strong.
* There is no good or evil. We are all animals and just follow the instincts that the gods gave us."
Except that just about every Paladin, Cleric, and Mage knows that Evil is a very real thing, due to the ability and spell Detect Evil. That kind of puts to rest those two points, at least for these Classes that have access to the ability to Detect Evil.
The way reputation works, high rep does mean doing "good" deeds. It is popularity, not fame. The evil NPCs would prefer to be feared and respected, but not cheered as heroes.
And an evil cleric using "Detect Evil" and detecting himself would likely take that as "ah, I'm fine/normal today". Like other people look in the mirror to see if their hair is looking weird or not.
@AHF - "* There is no good or evil. There is only strong or weak. It is meant to be that the strong should thrive while the weak flounder. I will be strong.
* There is no good or evil. We are all animals and just follow the instincts that the gods gave us."
Except that just about every Paladin, Cleric, and Mage knows that Evil is a very real thing, due to the ability and spell Detect Evil. That kind of puts to rest those two points, at least for these Classes that have access to the ability to Detect Evil.
Paladins are never going to buy into a nihilistic view on life so I would go ahead and exclude them.
Priests will be detecting what is 'evil' according to the crede of their faith. If someone else doesn't buy into the faith, that person doesn't have to buy into what that priest's god tells them.
Mages are the best example but it isn't hard to rationalize that from a RP perspective to me. But that opens a lot of questions as to how this is interpreted.
Do normal people who are E alignment show up? (In BG, they do but in RP it is more varied). Does the evil in a person that is not E aligned show up? Part of the Christian faith deals with the sin and evil in every person so is that detected? I know this is 3rd edition but it speaks a bit about some of the different approaches used:
This is one of those areas where different DMs take very different approaches to this issue.
In the BG world, you definitely see very concrete examples of characters who believe that the strong should rule and weak should perish. Those characters don't necessarily think of themselves as evil incarnate. I think those are valid RP motives and that the first (strong/weak) is actually very common in the fantasy setting.
Honestly, in a perfect world, the characters' responses to rep would be individual. Let's take some different evil characters for example. Someone like Eldoth, who uses manipulation and charm to get by, would probably be cool with having a high reputation because being seen in a positive light would really help him get away with the kind of stuff he does. Kagain, on the other hand, would probably be too disillusioned with all the selflessness, turning down rewards, and giving away perfectly good gold to those damn temples to see any benefits to a high reputation. Neutral characters--I am pretty sure someone like, say, Haer'Dalis wouldn't give two shits about reputation either way. Garrick would definitely prefer a high reputation and would love to be in the company of heroes. Excellent inspiration for music right there. I imagine he'd get disillusioned pretty fast with a low reputation, considering the way he reacted when he found out about the dishonest stuff going on in the last two groups he was a part of. Xan would probably be most comfortable with a neutral reputation. After all, if you get too well known on either end of the spectrum, you're going to make more enemies, and it's going to be more likely for you all to meet your untimely ends. That said, he'd probably only leave because of a low reputation. Oh he'd complain if your reputation got high enough, but too low? No, I don't think he could handle that. Not at all.
This is where DA:O shone for me: Influence points with different characters depending on actions and dialogs as well as scenarios where you had to choose who you would please and who you would displease. (Although as far as I know NPCs never left there, which I think they should if influence gets bad enough). While a system like that would be VERY annoying to implement retroactively I personally think it was a nice solution.
No, NPCs can and do leave in DA:O -- both nonspecifically if their approval gets too low, and also if you make certain scripted choices (e.g., Wynne always leaves if you desecrate Andraste's Ashes).
No, NPCs can and do leave in DA:O -- both nonspecifically if their approval gets too low, and also if you make certain scripted choices (e.g., Wynne always leaves if you desecrate Andraste's Ashes).
I guess I'm just too good at pleasing my underlings... Need more whip and less carrot.
Yeah, DA:O really got the approval system right IMHO. Perhaps there should also be a Rep system along with an approval system. That would be an interesting twist - do things to increase Rep (and the benefits that it brings) and risk disapproval by NPC X. Quandry, oh quandry!
Hard to romance someone who disapproves of your leadership!
@Stickan Some of the scenes are kinda cool. Sten challenges you to a duel IIRC.
As does Oghren, actually most NPCs will try to kill you or leave at low approval, except for Alistair, who still gives you a piece of his mind when he disapproves of you but sticks around since ending the blight is worth it in his opinion.
Comments
I kind of understand that. I wouldn't want the whole city of Baldur's Gate knowing I'm hanging out in town doing all kinds of good and random acts. It's kind of counter productive to what you're trying to do.
Same thing for evil and low reputation. So to me, staying in the average or popular range makes sense. Out of site, out of mind type of thing.
In a way, people who play "smart evil" are doing it for evil reasons, but just like the outside observer, the people around them can't tell that they are only doing it to provide cover for themselves. It's like doing good deeds because it gives you something (like Constantine in the movie with Keanu Reeves, who helps people only to score himself "good points" so he can go to Heaven, rather than Hell (which he found out about when he committed suicide as a teenager). At the end of the movie, he finally helps someone altruistically, and when he nearly dies, he really does end up in Heaven- because he DIDN'T do it as a calculated act. Actually, I've also met people who do this in real life, who only do good deeds because it racks them up brownie points in Heaven. Whereas, I just do a good deed because it makes me feel happy to help people, not because, "Ooh, I did six more good Deeds today! I get upgraded to a Limo in the afterlife!"
Really?
It takes SIX for a limo?
All in ONE day?
Isn't that a little excessive??
Sheesh I'm going to be riding a mule...
Dorn does not think he is misunderstood! He KNOWS that he has made an evil pact with a demon! He admits to having killed women and children! He knows without a doubt that he is evil to the core. I have no doubt that he knows that he is a villain and that others wish him dead. This was his choice, you see? He readily made a pact with a demon for the power to extract REVENGE! He is on the road to hell - meifumado (although in his case, the road to the Abyss). Of all the NPCs, I think that Dorn is most aware that he is damned (evil) and that it is in that sense "wrong" - he knows that killing women and children is bad but he chose this way, and has accepted the consequences. I rather suspect that in the end, he will regret his decision...demons are not nice creatures.
Viconia is a special case, because she is Drow. Born into an evil society, and forced to do evil things. However, even she was incapable of doing what Dorn did - kill a child, a baby. We know that Viconia can change alignment, given the chance and means. There was a thread kicking around, that described Viconia as being one of those rare "innocent souls" somewhere...
She is evil, but is capable of learning not to be so. This, of all the others, is what makes her case special IMHO. So I think that Viconia can learn to see that her ways are wrong, and adopt other, better ways. Of course, we do know that her fears are justified - Lolth never tires of seeking out those who have left her, especially her Clerics, and exacting revenge...which actually does happen in one ending.
Now for Magneto - Magneto is a special case here. Magneto is very intelligent, somewhat wise (though arrogant), and very powerful. His...personality and philosophy were broken and burned into him in the horror that was Auschwitz. Magneto's experiences surviving Nazi Germany, Auschwitz, and Vinnytsia shaped his outlook on the situation that mutants face in the Marvel Universe. He is what his environment has made him. And as a Mutant, he cannot escape it. I personally think that he cannot. It is perhaps the one thing that Magneto cannot rise above - his own past.
Does he consider himself evil? He certainly is aware that he does evil things (he even mentions this to Rogue as she is to be consumed by his machine - "a weak consolation for you, I am sure, but a necessary one"), so as you see, he deems such "necessary". In other words, the ends justifies the means, and Magneto is ruthless when it comes to using means, any means, to accomplish his goals. So he knows that such means are indeed "bad", and he is aware that they are detrimental to those who are affected by them negatively, but he is willing to use them if they accomplish what he wishes.
* All men are selfish and corrupt. Some 'holier than thou' types try to put on airs but at the end of the day they are just as selfish as I am. I am just honest about it.
* There is no good or evil. There is only strong or weak. It is meant to be that the strong should thrive while the weak flounder. I will be strong.
* There is no good or evil. We are all animals and just follow the instincts that the gods gave us.
* All that matters is the ends and not the means. I am going to take care of myself and those that I love and if I have to do things that other people don't approve of...so be it.
* There will always be a black market. The law tries to suppress certain appetites and desires of people -- to make them live up to some kind of artificial ideal that even many of the so-called "good" don't live up to. Someone will always supply what is desired. Why shouldn't I be that person, especially when the margins are this good?
etc.
High rep /= goody two shoes necessarily.
I, however, do not see Dorn wanting to brag about his "crimes". He accepts what he is. And enjoys it, no less. This is why in my party Dorna does most of the killing and beating of innocents. We do things that make us popular, then kill and rob innocents in the process! It really is a win-win situation for my Team Evil! They love us, and shout and encourage our bloodletting and evil-doing further along!
I'm sure the Bards are singing tales of Dorna's infamy in every Tavern across the Sword Coast!
@AHF - "* There is no good or evil. There is only strong or weak. It is meant to be that the strong should thrive while the weak flounder. I will be strong.
* There is no good or evil. We are all animals and just follow the instincts that the gods gave us."
Except that just about every Paladin, Cleric, and Mage knows that Evil is a very real thing, due to the ability and spell Detect Evil. That kind of puts to rest those two points, at least for these Classes that have access to the ability to Detect Evil.
And an evil cleric using "Detect Evil" and detecting himself would likely take that as "ah, I'm fine/normal today". Like other people look in the mirror to see if their hair is looking weird or not.
Priests will be detecting what is 'evil' according to the crede of their faith. If someone else doesn't buy into the faith, that person doesn't have to buy into what that priest's god tells them.
Mages are the best example but it isn't hard to rationalize that from a RP perspective to me. But that opens a lot of questions as to how this is interpreted.
Do normal people who are E alignment show up? (In BG, they do but in RP it is more varied). Does the evil in a person that is not E aligned show up? Part of the Christian faith deals with the sin and evil in every person so is that detected? I know this is 3rd edition but it speaks a bit about some of the different approaches used:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Detect_Alignment_Variant_Rules_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)
This is one of those areas where different DMs take very different approaches to this issue.
In the BG world, you definitely see very concrete examples of characters who believe that the strong should rule and weak should perish. Those characters don't necessarily think of themselves as evil incarnate. I think those are valid RP motives and that the first (strong/weak) is actually very common in the fantasy setting.
Neutral characters--I am pretty sure someone like, say, Haer'Dalis wouldn't give two shits about reputation either way. Garrick would definitely prefer a high reputation and would love to be in the company of heroes. Excellent inspiration for music right there. I imagine he'd get disillusioned pretty fast with a low reputation, considering the way he reacted when he found out about the dishonest stuff going on in the last two groups he was a part of. Xan would probably be most comfortable with a neutral reputation. After all, if you get too well known on either end of the spectrum, you're going to make more enemies, and it's going to be more likely for you all to meet your untimely ends. That said, he'd probably only leave because of a low reputation. Oh he'd complain if your reputation got high enough, but too low? No, I don't think he could handle that. Not at all.
Hard to romance someone who disapproves of your leadership!
Oh and Dog loves you no matter what.
I think I'll leave him in camp wit tha golem. Yeah. See how ol' stoney likes a wet leg o two...