Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Wizard Slayer led Anti-Arcane-Magic Party - custom party of six mage-killers (spoilers)

24

Comments

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Lemernis said:

    I guess if the arcane-like spells of the Avenger are divinely granted it would be okay. A druid can either get their powers from Nature or a deity, right? I know druids often worship Silvanus, let's say. But I honestly can't remember anymore whether druidic powers come from a god or Nature itself...

    Yeah, I think those two are the only choices: any spell an Avenger can cast either came from a deity, or from "nature". (Gods vs Nature probably varies by author; there are canonical Druids who claim to worship different gods in the Realms.)

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited March 2013
    Thanks for the feedback about the Avenger. It's certainly a possibility to have one. Question is how it would sit with the party leader.

    I think that number of arcane-like spells at the disposal of an Avenger would be offputting to this game's protagonist, as his bio is beginning to take shape for me. All priests, of every faith, know but two spells that are similar to a wizard spell. That's the norm. But having a considerably larger assortment of spells associated with the arcane sets such a priest quite a bit apart from the herd. The PC would be wary of having someone like that join him. Anyway, Totemic Druid ultimately feels a little more in line with the anti-arcane magic theme.

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Nah, there's way more overlap than just the two that I mentioned. :-)

    From the core list:
    - Hold Person
    - Animate Dead
    - Dispel Magic
    - True Sight / True Seeing
    - Confusion
    - Protection from Evil
    - Protection from Fire
    - Finger of Death

    Of course, the kits all grant Arcane spells too:
    - Hold Undead
    - Lightning Bolt
    - Dispel Magic

    - - -

    Nothing wrong with taking a Totemic Druid, of course! I just want to clear the Avenger's good name.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, I got a bit lazy there, lol. Good point.

    But six additional spells that a mage normally casts would still be too much for the protagonist to be comfortable.

    In a game like this, it helps with immersion to invent a backstory that's a little different to explain five companions. At a minimum I think the hero would had to have had someone very dear to him killed by a mage. (I'll have to invent who that is.) And the main character will also have somehow managed to meet his traveling companions, all of whom either share a personal reason of their own for a hatred of arcane magic, or who are simply willing to join for whatever other reason might seem to work (eg, personal friendship, mercenary motives, etc.). But in all events they must all be committed to hunting down and destroying wizards, and to following their leader. And they must agree not to use any item with any sort of arcane enchantment.

    I expect the PC would require very high Cha to assemble such a group.

    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Avengers don have anything to do with arcane. They use nature to smite their foes and they smite em good.

    The name of the spell is irrelevant. Druids shape divine nature magic and there's no confusion about that.

    Personally I'd think a magic hater would be more creeped out by magic spirit animals constantly hanging around.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited March 2013
    Yep, it's true that they don't get their spells from the Weave.

    But that's a lot of spells an Avenger uses that are virtually identical to a mage. Again, as I'm imagining the character, it wouldn't sit well. For this particular party leader.

    But mileage obviously can vary! I could just as easily have another main character who is quite at peace with the parallels that an Avenger's spells have with the arcane. That's not the game I wish to play here, though.

    Edit: Just felt I should reemphasize to you guys that FWIW I don't disagree about an Avenger's spells coming from Nature and whatnot.

    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    Wowo said:

    Personally I'd think a magic hater would be more creeped out by magic spirit animals constantly hanging around.

    Yeah, from that vantage maybe it should just be a vanilla druid!

  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    @Lemernis

    Just thought I'd say my WS6/Druid8 is doing great. Dual wielding Scimitars and spanking those SCS Mages hard. Let my Bard cast Haste on the party, and they barely have enough time to cast their second spell, IF they can.

    They always cast Dispel Magic first, but the WS is generally not the target, and it hits everyone but her.

    Seriously a good class that's underrated.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited March 2013
    @Copastetic1985 Is this a SCS game you're playing for the WS 6/Druid 8?

    I'm glad you're finding a way to make the kit work, it's a cool idea in theory. Glad it's working out in practice.

    Are you mainly using druid spells to buff, then meleeing? Or are you also firing off druid spells during combat? Before combat? How are you integrating the druidic powers?

    And I guess the biggest question is whether a vanilla Fighter would be accomplishing the same results. 'Cause it sounds like mages just get killed anyway from any fighter's weapons alone, notwithstanding the 10% spell failure on hit for a WS.

  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    @Lenernis

    Yes, SCS. Only thing I can play now.

    I'm playing with a party of five which I don't consider to be a legit party for myself.

    WS6/Druid8
    Assassin6/Mage7
    Skald ( Silke ) 8
    Avenger 8
    Monk 7

    WS is the tank with Ankheg. I have her stocked up with the buffs like Bless, Enduring Harmony, Prot from Fire and Ice etc. Also running a Dispel Magic since she'll reach 10 in Druid. Next level she gets Iron Skin, and another at 10. Going to be a great tank backed by Skins, my Skald, and other buffs.

    Since I turned back on pre-buffing, I pre-buff again. And I chain Bless as soon as it expires if I need to, though I'm thinking about just letting the Avenger do that, but she's usually busy healing or Dooming things for my Skald to hit with Spook or some other CC.

    And as far as if a Fighter can do it better: I say no.

    My last game had Shar-Teel and Kagain. They were swingin' but weren't very effective until the skins were down and the illusions dispelled and made for some pretty long battles, because the enemies love Chaos and Confusion. Every time a WS hits ( even if it hits an Image or hits through a layer of skins ) the 10% is applied. The WS may not be doing damage, but she's doing something my last two Fighters couldn't; keeping them and the backline safe from CC with the spell failure.

    Keep in mind that most SCS Mages have two castings of Stone Skin and the same, if not more Mirror Image. They love their invisibility too in a minor sequencer with either Armor, or Mirror Image. A WS doesn't let the cast that.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited May 2013
    Below is the party that I rolled up. I adjusted their ability scores from my original posting to make them more in line with the average NPC.

    The theme of this game is no arcane magic. This is a vanilla game. (Not using the Suriken mod after all.) I'm going to try using only magic items that seem divinely enchanted, or that I may interpret as such. (I wish there was a mini-mod that changed the magical item descriptions such that about half the magic items in the game are divinely enchanted, and the other half are arcanely enchanted; then changing the user restrictions to include divinely enchanted items for Wizard Slayers.)

    image

    image

    image

    image

    image

    image

    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    edited May 2013
    You've got the assassin in there twice.

    Have you started this yet? How far did you get?

    I'm actually trying a no-magic run myself, not even divine. All archers! Which will be quite a bit easier than this, I think hehe

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    Okay, thanks, I fixed the second screenshot (the Inquisitor was supposed to be there, and now is).

    I haven't actually started this game yet. It's all set to go with the starting party in Candlekeep.

    I dunno, it might turn out to be a lot easier than I'm expecting. I read every now and then others comment that you really don't need a wizard in BG1. (In a vanilla game at least.) I love casting spells, so I'm just used to beating the game with arcane magic. So at least it should be a challenge for me. Hope so anyway!

    An all archer party sounds like a fun, lol. But if meleeing enemies do close in on your party members how do you handle it?

  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    You have two backstabbers at your disposal, should be a piece of cake to gank those wizards :) How is that working out?

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited May 2013
    @ikMark The Assassin/Fighter is going to be a Grandmaster in Darts. (Hopefully I'll be able to obtain enough Darts of Wounding for her.) I'm putting all of her Thief skill points into Locks. And she'd only have a backstab multiplier x2. So she won't be backstabbing. This Dart Grandmaster is a build that I've been meaning to test out for some time. But anyway, the main will be backstabbing with the Dagger of Venom then switching to double axes. And Zalektra be hurling darts of Wounding and Stunning at those mages.

    I've decided that only if a weapon or item has a clearcut magical effect will the party not use it, unless the spell description specifically states that the item is enchanted via divine magic (which come to think of it, I doubt any description does). Eg, they won't use Stupefier, Spider's Bane, Boots of Stealth, etc. They can use a halberd + 1 however.

    The exception to this rule will be weapons that are enchanted to be anti-magic, such as Bala's Axe and the Golden Axe. (I can't think of any other such weapons atm.)

    The party will pay to have blued items identified. Items that aren't described as having been enchanted by a mage that confer just enhanced AC, thac0, damage, can simply be the results of superior craftsmanship (eg, a superior or masterwork weapon or piece of armor crafted by a more skilled artisan).

    I still haven't had time to begin this game! Hoping to get them on their way in the next couple of days.

    (Note: I had really wanted to play this game with SCS installed. But my 'Let the Fates Decide' game is vanilla and I'll probably be running that for at least several months yet. Seems like it would be a pain to regularly install/uninstall SCS as I go back and forth between games. So it looks like I won't be playing with SCS for some time, unfortunately.)

    Post edited by Lemernis on
    IkMarc
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    Here are the Profs for each:

    Dezrath - Wizard Slayer 3/Thief (main character)
    LN human male
    Axe ++
    Two-Weapon Style ++

    Jeryll - Inquisitor
    LG human female
    Two-Handed Sword ++
    Two-Handed Weapon Style ++

    Daresh - Barbarian
    CN half-orc male
    Halberd ++
    Two-Handed Weapon Style ++

    Karsum - Cleric of Helm
    LN human male
    Flail/Morningstar +
    Sword and Shield Style +

    Zalektra - Assassin 2/Fighter
    NE human female
    Dart + (won't stack I realize, but I want to try the Poison ability with Darts early on)
    Shortbow +

    Apothos - Druid
    TN human male
    Sling +
    Spear +

    Wanderon
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    Lemernis said:


    An all archer party sounds like a fun, lol. But if meleeing enemies do close in on your party members how do you handle it?

    Either kite or just switch to melee weapons. I'm going to try to rely on all missiles as much as possible, but everyone will probably have at least one proficiency in a melee.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited May 2013
    all ranged party in bg1 is too easy

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited May 2013
    Okay, I'm finally beginning this game and I'd forgotten how a party of six right out of Candlekeep can steamroll through the early encounters. Tarnesh never stood a chance against the Barbarian's berserking, the Inquisitor's Dispel Magic, and the Priest of Helm's Command Word: To Your Mother. The halberd wielding half-orc Barbarian chunked him. (Daresh is quickly becoming the star, at least very early on.)

    I decided I'm going to reload if any of the party members die, i.e., it's not no-reload or minimal reload. However, to increase the challenge I won't meta-game encounters. For example, I let Tarnesh's assault proceed as if they had no clue about him being an assassin.

    With respect to magical loot items within this RP concept, here's how I've decided to proceed: The party will identify everything that is blued, but won't sell wizard items. Instead they will stockpile arcane magic items to be destroyed.

    In the rare cases that they do come across something that is clearly anti-arcane-magic in nature, when the item description makes room to interpret that it could be divinely enchanted, they will use it (such as Bala's Axe and the Golden Axe). For magic items that leave the nature of the enchantment in question, I'll roll a 1d3 using the WotC dice roller, where a 3 = divinely enchanted. Eg, the description for the Ring of the Princes +1 states the source of the enchantment is unknown. If I roll a 3 (using 1d3) then it is divinely enchanted, and a party member may use it.

    But potions that protect against magical effects, such as a Potion of Clarity, Potion of Freedom, Potion Magic Blocking, Potion of Magic Protection, and Potion of Mirrored Eyes... should the party refuse to use them? I guess if they are most likely created through arcane enchantment, then they wouldn't...

    The party will of course use priest protection scrolls. Any potion sold at a temple they will use.

    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    Also, anyone who is clearly a mage dies. Except for Elminster because I know he is basically unbeatable without a hacked epic level character.

    Maybe if they grow powerful enough to eventually take on Thalantyr they will. Otherwise they'll just avoid setting foot in High Hedge.

    Poor Neera! The party was actually eager to protect her against those despicable Red Wizards. But then she showed herself to be a mage...

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,600
    edited May 2013
    @Lemernis, how interesting that you're roleplaying "all mages must die". I guess Valygar from BG2 would fit right into your party.

    I'm interested in how your wizard slayer works out in practice, once you get to tougher mages like Daveaorn. One thing that I see a lot of people forget is that a hit against a mirror image counts as a hit. If a mage has five mirror images, which you batter down with your wizard slayer, and casts another five (beating a 50 percent spell failure check), which you also batter down, that mage is at 100 percent spell failure. I really am starting to believe, from the class's few defenders, that it may be a bit more effective against mages than people think.

    I thought you made a really good point back in March, that a lot of wizard slayer detractors argue as though 100 percent spell failure is the goal, and say, 40 or 50 percent spell failure doesn't do anything, which isn't true. Any percent spell failure makes a scary wizard much less scary.

    Also, the wizard slayer gets his main power at full strength from level one, making him a perfect candidate for dual-classing. (Although that will cost him apr, which he kind of needs for maximum effectiveness.)

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited May 2013
    @belgarathmth Yeah, it's far from my normal playstyle, but the mages-must-die concept presents an offbeat tactical challenge. This is a totally different game than what I'm used to playing. Resource management is a complete departure. The way I'm playing it, the party must resort to selling mundane gear to acquire gold. And killing some mages in the game can results in rep loss. For example, the party just killed Firebeard and their rep dropped by 4. But then again, they will donate to temples to get their rep back up. And that is surprisingly cheap to do.

    It's tempting to keep Dezrath a Wizard Slayer throughout versus dualing him to Thief (I'm planning to dual at WS 3) in order to see how he works out as a pure kit. Problem for this particular game would then be that the Assassin who will dual to Fighter has no points in Traps. And I need a Thief who is good with Traps for Durlag's Tower, where Bala's Axe is found. So I was planning to have the main handle traps for Durlag's

    And I guess in order to really test the kit well, I'd probably also want to forgo the two powerful anti-magic axes, which would reduce the fun value of this particular game, I think.

    Bala's Axe casts Miscast Magic on each successful hit, resulting in 80% spell failure. Presumably that hit from a WS also causes 10% spell failure. All you need then from a Wizard Slayer is one more hit for total spell failure.

    Anyway, Mages are pretty much good as dead against this guy, I think. Thalantyr, for example, may actually be easy to defeat. Unless he has Magic Resistance.

    Post edited by Lemernis on
    BelgarathMTH
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    if wizard slayer can get to the mage the mage is dead

    in my tests (bg2) there is very little mage can do attack or run and fighting wizard slayer9/thief11 with katana or wizard slayer9/mage 10 with wakizashi using mage weapons is really not the best idea

    for bg1 they are even more powerfull because mages in bg1 won't cast pfmw or mantle

    BG2 fight with Aran Linvail (2 mages) maybe a little help from insect swarm but still easy as pie ;P
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=euW1YP7bP5A#t=4474s

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    The contention by detractors of the WS kit is that a plain Fighter can kill a mage just as fast. I am doubtful of this with SCS installed, although I guess it may be true in a vanilla game.

    BelgarathMTH
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    I took on Bassilus without meta-gaming. So I then had to fight his army of undead as well. Bassilus went down pretty fast (Command is so great) but those blasted skeletons with crossbows killed four of the six party members. I had to raise them after the fight.

    The item description for Ashideena doesn't mention anything about the source of it's enchantment. So I rolled a 1d3 using the WotC dice roller. When I roll a 3 then I roleplay that when the party had it identified they learned it was enchanted with divine magic. And I rolled a 3. So the party is allowed to use that item. It'll go to the Cleric of Helm when he gets another prof.

    zur312BelgarathMTH
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    you could always run from them ;P

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited May 2013
    Actually, the skeletons are easy to defeat if you can get them using their swords instead of using those crossbows. But there were just too many of them spread out for my four meleers.

    In other news, the Assassin leveled right after the Bassilus fight (to Assassin 2). So I dualed her to Fighter. She is now a High Master in Darts (++++) with 3.5 APR using darts. Too bad I can't Haste her! (This being an anti-arcane-magic party, and all.)

    I'm side-questing around the countryside to get another level for the Wizard Slayer, so that I can dual him to Thief at WS 3. Then he can handle traps in the Nashkel mine.

    Post edited by Lemernis on
    BelgarathMTH
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    This is great. Keep the updates coming! Very interesting.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited May 2013
    To consolidate what I've made up as I go along here about the 'rules' (or method) for this playthrough:
    • Custom party of six with no arcane magic abilities.
    • The party will not use or sell anything that is enchanted by arcane magic, or that is used by wizards such as mage spell scrolls, wands, wizard cloaks, most potions, etc. Such items are stockpiled to be destroyed (taken out of circulation).
    • The party attacks-on-site any wizard or sorcerer (unless they feel it would be virtually suicidal to do so). If they strongly suspect someone is a wizard because of their demeanor or attire, they will try to kill them.
    • Anything purchased at a temple is fine to use (healing potions, elixirs of health, poison antidote, etc.)
    • If a magic item's enchantment is stated or indicated in its description to be divine, the party may use it.
    • For magic items about which the description leaves it in question about whether its enchantment is arcane vs. divine roll 1d3 using WotC dice roller where 3 = divinely enchanted.
    • The party may use or sell mundane items and 'superior craftsmanship' items that do not have arcane enchantments.
    • As a player I will not meta-game encounters, though I may for where I choose to have the party explore.
    • To fully enjoy the tactical challenge this game offers, I will reload as often as I wish; but I will tend to avoid reloading whenever I can.
    • I will accept level-up results without reloading.

    Post edited by Lemernis on
    WanderonBelgarathMTH
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    edited May 2013
    Okay, latest update:

    Completed the Nashkel mines without a problem. Mulahey went down to Command.

    I used Silence on the amazon assassins outside of the secret mine exit, and did it without meta-gaming when the party walked up to them and revealed the first one as hostile. They were pretty easy to defeat when Silenced.

    The encounter with Nimbul was interesting in that as they walked in to the store Nimbul called them out--and the instant after that introduction they were then inside the store. Not that that really changed anything, but it bought a moment to think about the plan. I had the Inquisitor (who I thought would be protected from Horror via innate ability Mind Shield; this was wrong though) step out and cast Dispel on him. I figured I might as well just go for it then. So the rest of the party emerged from the store and the Priest of Helm cast Hold. The Hold spell worked. Nimbul did however get his Horror spell off, though, which panicked the Inquisitor and the Druid. Nevertheless, that couldn't save Nimbul from the rest of the party's weapons.

    There are now a few enchanted items that the party may use, either via their description or using the 1d3 method. Varscona and the Harrower are both divinely enchanted (or so it can easily be surmised from their descriptions). (Accordingly, when the Inquisitor hit level 3 she took a prof in Long Sword.) The boots 'Talos Gift' are also divinely enchanted, I think it safe to presume. And thus far for items with ambiguous descriptions re: the nature of their enchantment, I have rolled 3s for only Ashideena and the boots 'Senses of the Cat'. I.e., it was thereby determined when the items were identified that their enchantments are via divine magic, so may therefore be used by this party. They also have a Potion of Magic Blocking and Oil of Explosion. The explosives I'm really not sure how the party would regard (they could just be chemical and not enchanted)...

    I'm currently having a tough time with Icharyd at the Ulcaster Ruins map! The only weapon I can hit him with is Harrower (or Varsona, but obviously Harrower is the one to use). I think I may have to return and try this fight later when I have some more powerful priest magic and/or divinely enchanted weapons. Or I guess when I return I could also use Protection From Undead scroll... One problem is that I can't visit Thalantyr to buy one (at least as I'm choosing to roleplay this party). So a Protection From Undead priest scroll would have to come from a loot drop.

    I guess when the time comes that this party feels bold enough to try to take out Thalantyr, they might first buy all the items they would use from him first before killing him.

    Post edited by Lemernis on
    Wanderon
Sign In or Register to comment.