That depends on what you mean by "legitimately". You can kill Drizzt at lvl 1 with a ranged character by simply running circles around him while he chases you, relying on critical hits to deal damage. Takes ages, but works, and is completely within the rules of the game.
But then some people consider even that to be "cheese". So you go and make a tank, like, say, a Ranger/Cleric, with its defensive buffs. Then people come along and call that cheesy, too. So yeah, what IS "legitimate", really? A vanilla fighter tanking and spanking?
Drizzt can definitely be and has definitely been killed in a huge number of ways. The judgement is out on which of these were "legitimate", though if you asked 50 people about it, you'd probably get 50 different answers and opinions.
Legitiment meaning a nice stand-up fight with a level 16 Drow Ranger using your party. Not a million summons. Not exploiting his AI. Not reforming your party to trap him.
Using everything at your disposal at max level ( TotSC/BG:EE ) to take him down in a fair way.
It still depends on how you defing "nice stand-up fight" and "in a fair way". For example, a single sorcerer/mage can take him out by casting Stoneskin, Mirror Image, and Fireshield Blue or Red and then just standing there and letting him attack (re-casting mirror image as needed). Is that fair?
Have you done that personally, or is that in theory? Unless the damage from Fireshield Blue/Red isn't counted as magic, then it could work. Otherwise, I doubt you'd have enough Stoneskins/Fireshields and Mirror Images to withstand that. His MR is pretty good, if not better than Viconia and Baeloth.
That video has been posted on this site. MR doesn't apply to damage from fireshields.
There's actually tons of videos showing different ways of killing drizzt if you search "kill drizzt", or something like that.
I found it before I went to sleep last night. Thanks though. And yes, I'm well aware of how many videos there are of killing Drizzt, which is why I asked for a link in the first place.
Yes, that method is cheese/bug. Throw a FB at him and you'll understand why.
That's pretty cheesey tactics. I guess this is a point where the game's AI breaks down.
The biggest thing that gives it the "cheese" factor: I have a feeling that in a "real," non-CRPG setting, a seasoned hero like Drizzt would not stand around mutely while your Sorceror performed a dozen potion quaffs and spell buffs, clearly prepping for battle.
Also: It seems unlikely that Drizzt would blithely bake in your fire shield rather than form some other tactics (Like, as an example, to get out of range and wait for the spell to lapse).
But these are things that fly in BG, due to limitations of the game's enemy AI scripts.
To be honest, it kind of just slipped my mind that his MR should protect against Fireshield. For some reason I was thinking that MR only applied to spells that were targeted directly at the character (not sure where I got that from, maybe I was thinking of spell turning/deflection?). So yeah, the fireshield method is pretty cheesy.
Still, I'm pretty sure it's do-able with more or less non-cheesy methods. With a high level thief and enough invisibility potions, you could always just chain backstab him to death, as long as you can get your THAC0 low enough. The way I did it in my last playthrough was having all my characters use range weapons and while using a couple charges of the wand of monster summoning, but I guess that depends on whether you consider that to be a cheesy amount of summons.
To be honest, it kind of just slipped my mind that his MR should protect against Fireshield. For some reason I was thinking that MR only applied to spells that were targeted directly at the character (not sure where I got that from, maybe I was thinking of spell turning/deflection?). So yeah, the fireshield method is pretty cheesy.
Still, I'm pretty sure it's do-able with more or less non-cheesy methods. With a high level thief and enough invisibility potions, you could always just chain backstab him to death, as long as you can get your THAC0 low enough. The way I did it in my last playthrough was having all my characters use range weapons and while using a couple charges of the wand of monster summoning, but I guess that depends on whether you consider that to be a cheesy amount of summons.
See, I wouldn't have a problem with the backstabbing method but, as a Drow he'd have Faerie Fire which they do in IWD2.
Speaking of Drow. I read about Drow, Aasmir, Tiefling, Wild Elf, and a Hafling sub-race are in some technical files in EE from some site. It also had a list of the new classes prior to their release. Any truth to this? I'm kind of out of the loop.
Speaking of Drow. I read about Drow, Aasmir, Tiefling, Wild Elf, and a Hafling sub-race are in some technical files in EE from some site. It also had a list of the new classes prior to their release. Any truth to this? I'm kind of out of the loop.
Speaking of Drow. I read about Drow, Aasmir, Tiefling, Wild Elf, and a Hafling sub-race are in some technical files in EE from some site. It also had a list of the new classes prior to their release. Any truth to this? I'm kind of out of the loop.
Yeah, I know that thread. The site I was looking at had the classes introduced on it a few months ago prior to being released. Figured if they knew about that, then the subraces thing might be right as well.
Some spells simply aren't affected by Magic Resistance, that's true mechanically as well as in-universe. Perhaps Fireshield starts a natural fire and then shapes it around the caster?
I couldn't tell you. I would like to say yes, but in my last evil play through last week we only got him to "Barely Injured". That's with buffs, heals, and max levels.
@subtledoctor There has to be a line drawn somewhere. MR should not protect you from everything. Should it protect you from a Flame Blade or the Black Blade of Disaster, too? I don't think so.
Bear in mind that Drizzt is a form of cheese as well. His MR is well above non-cheese levels and his weapons are drastically more powerful than they would be if he simply was wielding his two scimitars. Real Drizzt would get mauled by BG Drizzt in a fight. That was intended to be an offset against user tactics and AI limitations.
@Schneidend I agree. Being able to bypass MR is vital late game. Likewise, having 100% Magic Resistance yourself still wont protect you from things like Imprisonment and Dragon's Breath.
I don't agree with nerfing Fireshield and other spells like it because it can be used to kill Drizzt. Too many ripple effects for mages and sorcerers, my two favourite classes!
@Schneidend I agree. Being able to bypass MR is vital late game. Likewise, having 100% Magic Resistance yourself still wont protect you from things like Imprisonment and Dragon's Breath.
I don't agree with nerfing Fireshield and other spells like it because it can be used to kill Drizzt. Too many ripple effects for mages and sorcerers, my two favourite classes!
That would make it much easier to attack enemy mages if their fireshield was subject to being blocked by MR.
Does the lower resistance spell exist in this game? I know sorcerers don't get to lvl5 spells, but if you were to raise the level cap (like werebear guy) can they get it? or is it not in the engine?
Does the lower resistance spell exist in this game? I know sorcerers don't get to lvl5 spells, but if you were to raise the level cap (like werebear guy) can they get it? or is it not in the engine?
Legitiment meaning a nice stand-up fight with a level 16 Drow Ranger using your party. Not a million summons. Not exploiting his AI. Not reforming your party to trap him.
Using everything at your disposal at max level ( TotSC/BG:EE ) to take him down in a fair way.
Well, as @AHF said, Drizzt doesn't fight fair either.
@CoM_Solaufein released a mod that set Drizzt back to what his stats should be, since what Bioware did to him was insane.
His armour class was dropped from -8 to -10. His THACO from 5 to 0. His magic resistance was set to 98%. They gave him 30% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing, and missile damage (pretty much all weapon damage).
Worst of all, his number of attacks up by FOUR PER ROUND to NINE. NINE ATTACKS PER ROUND. Which may not be so bad, except he has an item that deals an additional 30 DAMAGE PER HIT.
Drizzt started fighting dirty first. Players are just fighting fire with fire.
@subtledoctor I rather prefer MR to work this way. It is more like spell resistance in 3.5/Pathfinder, which also doesn't protect you against the attacks made by magically-created weapons and many other effects that don't require saving throws. By your logic, magic resistance should protect you from magic weapons, and the natural attacks of magical creatures.
If you want to resist any given fire attack, then get fire resistance. MR should not be a catch-all, and TSR clearly never intended for it to be as such.
I'm just saying, decide what the rule is and apply it in a uniform, common-sense way.
It's never that easy, and doubly so in DnD where game depth and complexity and the associated arguments quickly escalate to epic proportions. If it was that easy to decide these things, it would have been done. It's not, hence the current dilemma.
The best you can do is pick one argument and try and stick with it, but that doesn't mean you can't argue against the decision. Fire Shield is what, Evocation/Alteration? So you call up fire and modify its properties, but it's not MAGICAL fire, so it burns anyone even through resistance. I guess that's what they went with, for their own reasons; you can find reasons that it should work completely differently, but there is no argument that decides the matter finally.
Then he should be hit by FB, Flame Arrow, Burning Hands, Fire Arrows, Agonezzor's Scorcher ( sp? ), and I'm sure other fire-based spells/attacks.
It would help if we knew what constitutes as "magical" to begin with. As it stands to me, the Mage waves his hands, twiddles his nose and twirls his wand saying "Expely Amus" ( whatever ) and creates ( out of nothing ) a fire that surrounds him.
If I'm not mistaken, a natural fire needs fuel, and a catalyst to burn. Unless the Mage keeps a lighter around when he farts, it's magical, thus, susceptible to Magic ( notice the M word ) Resistance.
Like someone else mentioned, I liked how vBG1 handled MR. It was balanced. Now, it's too beneficial.
Then he should be hit by FB, Flame Arrow, Burning Hands, Fire Arrows, Agonezzor's Scorcher ( sp? ), and I'm sure other fire-based spells/attacks.
I have no idea what the underlying thought were, exactly; it just seems that in each case you mentioned, you could just as well argue that for that particular spell, the fire is magical in nature. We're not talking about real-life physics here, so logic is difficult to apply. The system should be consistent of course, but I think we have too little underlying theory to make accurate predictions. In the end, you can justify any choice by simply saying "it is so".
There are other examples, too. Cloudkill for example is affected by MR in BG, even though it shouldn't be; the gas is called through magic and kept from dissipating by magic, but it's not magical gas, it's poison gas. As such, magic resistance should not work against it. That is how it works in PnP, iirc, and you could make a similar argument for Fire Shield: created by magic, kept going by magic, NOT magical fire.
I agree that the way the game behaves doesn't always make sense. But it's also not a matter of "oh, this is a simple decision". Not to mention that a blanket MR makes that ability unreasonably powerful, given the limited spell arsenals of casters in DnD, and the already high amount of variance and RNG involved in spell casting. I think that having an effect such as Fire Shield, with the significant trade-off of having to take melee hits, pierce through MR is not an unreasonable concession. Neither is Dragon's Breath piercing MR, as it's a 10th level spell and powerful enough to warrant some extra oomph.
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Got a link for that by chance? What level was the Sorcerer?
I just searched "Sorcerer Drizzt" on youtube.
There's actually tons of videos showing different ways of killing drizzt if you search "kill drizzt", or something like that.
Yes, that method is cheese/bug. Throw a FB at him and you'll understand why.
That's pretty cheesey tactics. I guess this is a point where the game's AI breaks down.
The biggest thing that gives it the "cheese" factor:
I have a feeling that in a "real," non-CRPG setting, a seasoned hero like Drizzt would not stand around mutely while your Sorceror performed a dozen potion quaffs and spell buffs, clearly prepping for battle.
Also:
It seems unlikely that Drizzt would blithely bake in your fire shield rather than form some other tactics (Like, as an example, to get out of range and wait for the spell to lapse).
But these are things that fly in BG, due to limitations of the game's enemy AI scripts.
Still, I'm pretty sure it's do-able with more or less non-cheesy methods. With a high level thief and enough invisibility potions, you could always just chain backstab him to death, as long as you can get your THAC0 low enough. The way I did it in my last playthrough was having all my characters use range weapons and while using a couple charges of the wand of monster summoning, but I guess that depends on whether you consider that to be a cheesy amount of summons.
See, I wouldn't have a problem with the backstabbing method but, as a Drow he'd have Faerie Fire which they do in IWD2.
Speaking of Drow. I read about Drow, Aasmir, Tiefling, Wild Elf, and a Hafling sub-race are in some technical files in EE from some site. It also had a list of the new classes prior to their release. Any truth to this? I'm kind of out of the loop.
https://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16668/mod-beta-38-subraces-for-bgee-0-87-updated-3112013/p1
I don't care personally, I like being Human.
I couldn't tell you. I would like to say yes, but in my last evil play through last week we only got him to "Barely Injured". That's with buffs, heals, and max levels.
If he had used a potion, I would have cried.
There has to be a line drawn somewhere. MR should not protect you from everything. Should it protect you from a Flame Blade or the Black Blade of Disaster, too? I don't think so.
I don't agree with nerfing Fireshield and other spells like it because it can be used to kill Drizzt. Too many ripple effects for mages and sorcerers, my two favourite classes!
@CoM_Solaufein released a mod that set Drizzt back to what his stats should be, since what Bioware did to him was insane.
His armour class was dropped from -8 to -10. His THACO from 5 to 0. His magic resistance was set to 98%. They gave him 30% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing, and missile damage (pretty much all weapon damage).
Worst of all, his number of attacks up by FOUR PER ROUND to NINE. NINE ATTACKS PER ROUND. Which may not be so bad, except he has an item that deals an additional 30 DAMAGE PER HIT.
Drizzt started fighting dirty first. Players are just fighting fire with fire.
I rather prefer MR to work this way. It is more like spell resistance in 3.5/Pathfinder, which also doesn't protect you against the attacks made by magically-created weapons and many other effects that don't require saving throws. By your logic, magic resistance should protect you from magic weapons, and the natural attacks of magical creatures.
If you want to resist any given fire attack, then get fire resistance. MR should not be a catch-all, and TSR clearly never intended for it to be as such.
The best you can do is pick one argument and try and stick with it, but that doesn't mean you can't argue against the decision. Fire Shield is what, Evocation/Alteration? So you call up fire and modify its properties, but it's not MAGICAL fire, so it burns anyone even through resistance. I guess that's what they went with, for their own reasons; you can find reasons that it should work completely differently, but there is no argument that decides the matter finally.
Then he should be hit by FB, Flame Arrow, Burning Hands, Fire Arrows, Agonezzor's Scorcher ( sp? ), and I'm sure other fire-based spells/attacks.
It would help if we knew what constitutes as "magical" to begin with. As it stands to me, the Mage waves his hands, twiddles his nose and twirls his wand saying "Expely Amus" ( whatever ) and creates ( out of nothing ) a fire that surrounds him.
If I'm not mistaken, a natural fire needs fuel, and a catalyst to burn. Unless the Mage keeps a lighter around when he farts, it's magical, thus, susceptible to Magic ( notice the M word ) Resistance.
Like someone else mentioned, I liked how vBG1 handled MR. It was balanced. Now, it's too beneficial.
There are other examples, too. Cloudkill for example is affected by MR in BG, even though it shouldn't be; the gas is called through magic and kept from dissipating by magic, but it's not magical gas, it's poison gas. As such, magic resistance should not work against it. That is how it works in PnP, iirc, and you could make a similar argument for Fire Shield: created by magic, kept going by magic, NOT magical fire.
I agree that the way the game behaves doesn't always make sense. But it's also not a matter of "oh, this is a simple decision". Not to mention that a blanket MR makes that ability unreasonably powerful, given the limited spell arsenals of casters in DnD, and the already high amount of variance and RNG involved in spell casting. I think that having an effect such as Fire Shield, with the significant trade-off of having to take melee hits, pierce through MR is not an unreasonable concession. Neither is Dragon's Breath piercing MR, as it's a 10th level spell and powerful enough to warrant some extra oomph.