New love for the Fighter/Thief and the Potion of Magic Shielding

mjs

I finished an all Elven party run last night with an F/T, Kivan, Coran, Viconia, Secret NPC and Xan and it was awesome. Luckily aside from the occasional sniping, Viconia and Kivan never came to blows despite having them both as early as possible and never needing to drop them (with an 18 charisma, up to 20 after the nymph cloak).

And yeah, the f/t was killer. as soon as i was able to pick up the staff+3 and the sand thief ring, combined with some invisibility spells from xan and mr.b and DUHM and she was hitting for huge amounts of damage, possibly my new favourite class

and lastly the Potion of Magic Shielding (50% damage reduction from magic, all saving throws automatically successful). Now in all my playthroughs i'm something of a hoarder and i'll never use any potions or wands much, but i decided this playthrough to splash the cash and invest in the potions of magic shielding, blocking and protection. i used the PoMS against Aec and i smashed him first time, fairly easily, without even having to backstab. the f/t holds his attention, while the rest of the team kills the mage and the cult members, then we all pitch in and finish him. then sarevok, i probably could have solo'd with the PoMS and PoMB. the rest of the team stayed at the door and ambushed the mage when he teleported over and the f/t backstabbed with the staff of striking, sandthiefed, rinse and repeat.

tldr: f/t are awesome, potions of magic shielding and blocking makes anybody awesome.

Nifft

DUHM is awesome. ;-)

Yeah, those potions can totally swing a fight. I use the Magic Shielding potion religiously for beating save-or-die encounters.

FinneousPJ

Nice work, OP.

Do the CHARNAME special powers use character level as caster level BTW?

Chow

Fighter/thief is basically the best class in the game, at least fluffwise, and close to best mechanically as well. Anyone that claims anything else is objectively wrong.

mjs

FinneousPJ said:

Nice work, OP.

Do the CHARNAME special powers use character level as caster level BTW?

YES! so i was backstabbing with 22 strength by end game, with a half-orc you're looking at 23. (+1 Tome of Strength, +2 with DUHM). also you get your boost to CON and DEX. i forgot to say i popped a Potion of Power too so my THAC0 was ridiculous in the Sarevok fight (plus doesn't attacking from invisibility/stealth improve THAC0?)

mjs

Chow said:

Fighter/thief is basically the best class in the game, at least fluffwise, and close to best mechanically as well. Anyone that claims anything else is objectively wrong.

i can't wait for ToB to destroy enemies with a combination of warrior and thief HLAs

namely...time trap + improved haste + assassination

which could end in 9 APR, every hit a backstab, every swing hits

i'm weak at the knees just thinking about it

Eudaemonium

I just finished the game with my Fighter/Thief dual. I felt really sorry for Sarevok and his lackeys. Semaj went down a few seconds after teleporting, Shar-Teel chunked her own dad, Dorn and Xzar decimated Tazok, and then Charname took down a slightly-injured Sarevok in a single quadruple backstab. Sarevok's declaration that I didn't have the skills to surpass him were sadly misguided when faced with the Staff of Striking combined with Quarterstaff GM, 19 STR, DUHM, and 4x BS.

Earlier I BS'd Aec'Letek for 150 damage. I felt sorry for him too.

In the interests of disclosure, I should state that I had the XP cap removed, so my F>T was 7/9 as opposed to the 7/8 she'd normally be able to get to, and thus had 4x as opposed to 3x BS. I'm not sure how much this would actually change with a (BG1 legal) 6/9 F>T, though, since to my knowledge the extra 1/2 APR from F7 doesn't factor into backstabs. Everyone else (Dorn, F>T Shar-Teel, M>C Xzar, Viconia, Edwin) was the same level they'd normally get to, since the extra XP wasn't enough to boost them above the standard level cap.

Nevertheless, it has convinced me of the sheer game breakingness that is DC'd characters.

mjs

@eudaemonium dual classing is ridiculous but then you don't have to DC if you don't want to and they're good for solos and give SCS players powerful PCs to combat the extra challenge

even the multis are super powerful

SionIV

Chow said:

Fighter/thief is basically the best class in the game, at least fluffwise, and close to best mechanically as well. Anyone that claims anything else is objectively wrong.

I enjoy Fighter/thief myself. But a class that doesn't have arcane magic will never be the best class in the game. Íf you ignore the thieving skills (Lock pick/Find trap) A fighter/ mage is better, and so is a blade. They deal more damage, they have better survivability and the blade get use any item just as the F/T.

I love the class, but it will never be the best class.

Chow

SionIV said:

I enjoy Fighter/thief myself. But a class that doesn't have arcane magic will never be the best class in the game. Íf you ignore the thieving skills (Lock pick/Find trap) A fighter/ mage is better, and so is a blade. They deal more damage, they have better survivability and the blade get use any item just as the F/T.

I love the class, but it will never be the best class.

Backstab combined with Boots of Speed and/or Invisibility can clear out entire levels single-handedly.

Nifft

Chow said:

Backstab combined with Boots of Speed and/or Invisibility can clear out entire levels single-handedly.

That's true, but so can a summoned Fire Elemental.

One of these is lower risk than the other. :-)

mjs

Nifft said:

Chow said:

Backstab combined with Boots of Speed and/or Invisibility can clear out entire levels single-handedly.

That's true, but so can a summoned Fire Elemental.

One of these is lower risk than the other. :-)

you can't get elementals till bg2 though, but you can bs all trilogy long

SionIV

Chow said:

SionIV said:

I enjoy Fighter/thief myself. But a class that doesn't have arcane magic will never be the best class in the game. Íf you ignore the thieving skills (Lock pick/Find trap) A fighter/ mage is better, and so is a blade. They deal more damage, they have better survivability and the blade get use any item just as the F/T.

I love the class, but it will never be the best class.

Backstab combined with Boots of Speed and/or Invisibility can clear out entire levels single-handedly.

You can't backstab undead, and you can't backstab dragons. Now most of the things will see you through stealth, boots of speed doesn't give you haste nor does it give you more attacks per rounds. So boots of speed doesn't give you anything except movement speed. Anything with protection from magical weapon will destroy your F/T as he can't do anything then.

We might be playing on different difficulty (SCS, tactics, ascension etc). A F/T can go through the game, and hes a very powerful class. But arcane magic is leaps better than anything else in this game. Even a sorcerer with 3 strenght can easily deal more damage in melee than a F/T with the right spells.

SionIV

mjs said:

Nifft said:

Chow said:

Backstab combined with Boots of Speed and/or Invisibility can clear out entire levels single-handedly.

That's true, but so can a summoned Fire Elemental.

One of these is lower risk than the other. :-)

you can't get elementals till bg2 though, but you can bs all trilogy long

You don't even need summons, sure they help but you don't need them. A F/M or Blade with : Blur, Mirror image, Stoneskin, Globe, blue/red fireshield, Haste. Will sweep the floor with anything you can do as F/T even your backstabs. Even if you had unlimited potions if invinsibility, the fact that you have to wait a second or two for the next one to take effect makes it so that the Blade / F/M is quicker in the end.

Eudaemonium

mjs said:

@eudaemonium dual classing is ridiculous but then you don't have to DC if you don't want to and they're good for solos and give SCS players powerful PCs to combat the extra challenge

even the multis are super powerful

@mjs: I never really played a DC'd character before this playthrough, so I'd only really *heard* about how ridiculous they were, never experienced it first hand.

Once the NPC Project gets released for EE, I'm going to install it and SCS. I've never played SCS, so I am interested in the added challenge.

AHF

SionIV said:

Even a sorcerer with 3 strenght can easily deal more damage in melee than a F/T with the right spells.

Enlighten me on the sorcerer melee monster for BG1.

Chow

SionIV said:

o boots of speed doesn't give you anything except movement speed.

But that's the best part. It will significantly help you to get off the enemy's line of sight and hide.

SionIV

AHF said:

SionIV said:

Even a sorcerer with 3 strenght can easily deal more damage in melee than a F/T with the right spells.

Enlighten me on the sorcerer melee monster for BG1.

Naked sorcerer with 3 strenght (BG1)


Shield
Luck
Blur
Mirror image
Strength
Haste
Ghost Armor
Stoneskin
Polymorph self (Sword spider)
Minor sequencer (Strength)

Can make some changes here if needed (Fire shield blue/red) for survivability. But sword spider under strength and haste deals more damage than a F/T. Not to mention we have alot more survivability, AND if you add them attacking us (Fireshield) you have extra damage there aswell.

It's also possible to use the gnoll form from polymorph self as it has a +3 weapon and will under haste and strength almost deal as much damage as a F/T (This is purely for +3 weapon, but as nothing in BG has that requirement, this is for BG2 mostly).

SionIV

Chow said:

SionIV said:

o boots of speed doesn't give you anything except movement speed.

But that's the best part. It will significantly help you to get off the enemy's line of sight and hide.

I agree, and i use them myself when i play thief (especially getting out of houses you rob before the guards appear). And i almost always have an elf F/T custom made for my normal games if i'm not playing thief myself. It's a powerful class in BG1 (Backstab) and even more so in BG 2 (Use any item carsomyr). But it isn't the best nor strongest class in the game. Then we're talking about Blade - F/M - F/M/T depending on how many NPC's are in your party. And the only reason they are the top 3 is because of the arcane spells they have acces to. The sorcerer is also on the list but i prefer to play mage myself.

Chow

Well, I guess I wasn't ever entirely serious when I said it was the strongest - and I never actually claimed that either, just that it was one of the better ones - but I still maintain my position that it's got the best flavor and it is by far my favorite.

SionIV

Chow said:

Well, I guess I wasn't ever entirely serious when I said it was the strongest - and I never actually claimed that either, just that it was one of the better ones - but I still maintain my position that it's got the best flavor and it is by far my favorite.

And on that we can agree

AHF

SionIV said:

AHF said:

SionIV said:

Even a sorcerer with 3 strenght can easily deal more damage in melee than a F/T with the right spells.

Enlighten me on the sorcerer melee monster for BG1.

Naked sorcerer with 3 strenght (BG1)


Shield
Luck
Blur
Mirror image
Strength
Haste
Ghost Armor
Stoneskin
Polymorph self (Sword spider)
Minor sequencer (Strength)

Can make some changes here if needed (Fire shield blue/red) for survivability. But sword spider under strength and haste deals more damage than a F/T. Not to mention we have alot more survivability, AND if you add them attacking us (Fireshield) you have extra damage there aswell.

It's also possible to use the gnoll form from polymorph self as it has a +3 weapon and will under haste and strength almost deal as much damage as a F/T (This is purely for +3 weapon, but as nothing in BG has that requirement, this is for BG2 mostly).

I see. You are assuming that the F/T doesn't similarly buff himself (lots of potions replicate the spell effects or even better them) or backstab and that the mage exhausts most of his spells (1 first level spell, 4 second level spells, 2 third level spells, and 3 fourth level spells with the possibility of adding another 4th level spell) instead of just firing off a web + fireballs, skull traps, etc. Interestingly, sorcerers in BG1 can't get all the fourth level spells you list and have to pass on spells like invisibility, web, stinking cloud, etc. to take all these melee buff second level spells. If this was a melee build for a sorcerer, it also would require tons of immersion breaking resting to constantly run with those types of buffs (luck lasts like 3 rounds, for example). A more scaled down version of this melee sorcerer is more realistic (you can get about 10 turns out of 3 polymorph selfs and 1 stoneskin or a little less than 8 turns out of 2 of each).

I don't have the patience for this when I can have the F/T hide in shadows and backstab for >100 damage (and repeat with ring and/or potions) and not spend more time buffing than the fight takes to complete.

ryuken87

I'd say there's a case for the F/T being the strongest in BG1, I prefer gnome or halfling multis myself. Arcane casters need to wait a little before they become powerful. At early levels they have great disabling spells in Sleep and Web but they need to wait until they get level 3 spells and a couple of wands before they can start dishing out the hurt. The sorc build @SionIV posted isn't possible under the exp cap without a lot of scroll use (which I'm fairly certain don't exist in any great quantity), would be awful until level 8/9, and require obscene micromanagement. A F/T multi is consistently more powerful throughout the game.

In BG2 there is no contest - arcane casters are better.

SionIV

AHF said:

SionIV said:

AHF said:

SionIV said:

Even a sorcerer with 3 strenght can easily deal more damage in melee than a F/T with the right spells.

Enlighten me on the sorcerer melee monster for BG1.

Naked sorcerer with 3 strenght (BG1)


Shield
Luck
Blur
Mirror image
Strength
Haste
Ghost Armor
Stoneskin
Polymorph self (Sword spider)
Minor sequencer (Strength)

Can make some changes here if needed (Fire shield blue/red) for survivability. But sword spider under strength and haste deals more damage than a F/T. Not to mention we have alot more survivability, AND if you add them attacking us (Fireshield) you have extra damage there aswell.

It's also possible to use the gnoll form from polymorph self as it has a +3 weapon and will under haste and strength almost deal as much damage as a F/T (This is purely for +3 weapon, but as nothing in BG has that requirement, this is for BG2 mostly).

I see. You are assuming that the F/T doesn't similarly buff himself (lots of potions replicate the spell effects or even better them) or backstab and that the mage exhausts most of his spells (1 first level spell, 4 second level spells, 2 third level spells, and 3 fourth level spells with the possibility of adding another 4th level spell) instead of just firing off a web + fireballs, skull traps, etc. Interestingly, sorcerers in BG1 can't get all the fourth level spells you list and have to pass on spells like invisibility, web, stinking cloud, etc. to take all these melee buff second level spells. If this was a melee build for a sorcerer, it also would require tons of immersion breaking resting to constantly run with those types of buffs (luck lasts like 3 rounds, for example). A more scaled down version of this melee sorcerer is more realistic (you can get about 10 turns out of 3 polymorph selfs and 1 stoneskin or a little less than 8 turns out of 2 of each).

I don't have the patience for this when I can have the F/T hide in shadows and backstab for >100 damage (and repeat with ring and/or potions) and not spend more time buffing than the fight takes to complete.

This is close to the build i use in No reload SCS solo. This was a sorcerer VS F/T. I'll deal alot more damage than the F/T with this build. I got double his APR and some great damage. This is about the prebuffing you need for fights in SCS no reload.

The question wasn't about immersion, or about using all my spells. The question was if i could deal more damage than the F/T as a 3 strenght naked sorcerer, and with this build you can do that and you have more survivability. There is no potion that adds 3 APR's. The only potion you have that is 'better' would be defense and strenght potions. You can't get blur, you can't get mirror image, can't get stone skin. All the best spells in that list are spells that aren't available through potions.

Web + fireballs gets you killed quick as hell against any decent oponent. And the only spell out of those i would pick for my runs would be web as the Poly sword spider for is immune.

Backstab for -> 100 is nothing compared to 4-5 APR sword spider with poison added to the bunch (Polymorph sword spider has poison) .

So to cut this short. 3 strenght naked sorcerer more damage in melee than F/T of equal level in BG1? Yes.

SionIV

ryuken87 said:

I'd say there's a case for the F/T being the strongest in BG1, I prefer gnome or halfling multis myself. Arcane casters need to wait a little before they become powerful. At early levels they have great disabling spells in Sleep and Web but they need to wait until they get level 3 spells and a couple of wands before they can start dishing out the hurt. The sorc build @SionIV posted isn't possible under the exp cap without a lot of scroll use (which I'm fairly certain don't exist in any great quantity), would be awful until level 8/9, and require obscene micromanagement. A F/T multi is consistently more powerful throughout the game.

In BG2 there is no contest - arcane casters are better.

That build is possible with the Totsc cap if you remove 1 4th level spell (I would remove minor sequencer at that point in the game).

And as i mentioned below this is a customized build with the purpose of having more survivability and damage than a F/T of equal level in BG1. It won't be as effective on lower level as a F/T but then again no caster will be. But on max level you'll deal more damage and survive alot better.

I play with difficult enhancing mods and unless you buff up like that with said mods you'll die in a couple of seconds.

This build isn't the most effective out there at low level, and it's tailorer with the purpose of going into melee at BG 1 cap.

"A F/T multi is consistently more powerful throughout the game. " Until you reach max level and it's less powerful than a sorcerer with 3 strenght that runs around naked.

[Edited] : And you still got 3 first level spells, 1 third level spell for anything you want on lower level. With Sleep you can easily get the first levels under your belt without problem. Also you can change luck for web, the reason i took luck was purely for damage, web in most cases is better as sword spider is immune.

mjs

SionIV said:

Backstab for -> 100 is nothing compared to 5 APR sword spider with poison added to the bunch (Polymorph sword spider has poison) .

So to cut this short. 3 strenght naked sorcerer more damage in melee than F/T of equal level in BG1? Yes.

This is wrong. firstly the THAC0 of a f/t is greatly better than a sword spider, it's unlikely every attack will hit. secondly the f/t can pull off 70+ (a conservative minimum) once per round and take minimal hits. your listed spells included 3 lvl 4s and a sorceror can only achieve 2 different lvl 4 spells by BG1 endgame, it would of course work for a mage though. plus once you're in shapeshift you can't cast more spells, so if you lose your mirror image and stoneskin protection an SS will die pretty quickly.

i admit i've never tried your build, i did something similar with an avenger and while truly awesome, she was better at picking off mages/archers etc rather than going toe-to-toe with Sarevok

FinneousPJ

I'm thinking people who think F/T can beat any arcane caster are playing casters wrong if at all.

ryuken87

I'm not seeing where the damage comes from. With 18/50 str the damage range is 4-7 (2-5 without the Sequencer) with 5 apr at a rather poor thac0 (15ish). Have I missed something? I guess you could have DUHM if you're good aligned. A F/T multi can get 4 apr either dual wielding or with a bow, deal a lot more per hit and hit more often.

mjs

FinneousPJ said:

I'm thinking people who think F/T can beat any arcane caster are playing casters wrong if at all.

remember we're talking bg:ee here

SionIV

mjs said:

SionIV said:

Backstab for -> 100 is nothing compared to 5 APR sword spider with poison added to the bunch (Polymorph sword spider has poison) .

So to cut this short. 3 strenght naked sorcerer more damage in melee than F/T of equal level in BG1? Yes.

This is wrong. firstly the THAC0 of a f/t is greatly better than a sword spider, it's unlikely every attack will hit. secondly the f/t can pull off 70+ (a conservative minimum) once per round and take minimal hits. your listed spells included 3 lvl 4s and a sorceror can only achieve 2 different lvl 4 spells by BG1 endgame, it would of course work for a mage though. plus once you're in shapeshift you can't cast more spells, so if you lose your mirror image and stoneskin protection an SS will die pretty quickly.

i admit i've never tried your build, i did something similar with an avenger and while truly awesome, she was better at picking off mages/archers etc rather than going toe-to-toe with Sarevok

Try out the build before saying that.

5 APR with poison
Thac0 16 without any potions involved
AC - 6 naked with only spells. Add the stoneskin and mirror image and you'll survive without any problem.

Being a sorcerer you still have spells left to refresh with. I just downed Sarevok with this build on my second try.

All this while being naked. Now by adding protection rings and such you'll have even better scores. Start chugging potions (The ones you can use as a pure sorcerer) and it's a killing machine.

It's also possible to dispel the spider claws and then trade the poison for a weapon instead, with 5 APR.

The one case where the F/T would win is if you chug every potion known to human (Cloud giant, potion of power, heroism). And then he'll still die alot quicker, and most probably fail where the sorcerer won't (This is purely from SCS) .

If you have a level 1 fighter and dual him to mage (So you can use the same potion as a F/T) your sword spider form will win even over a F/T fully buffed with potions.

[Edited] : Also let's put in the web spell instead of luck, and your enemy is held so each of your attacks will land, so you win the Thac0 race. The F/T don't have anything except darts to stun the enemy, and those have a low chanse to work on any higher level enemy in BG1.

Web + buffed sword spider form -> Cloakwood mine party, iron throne top floor and even sarevok an his cronies at the end. It's really that powerful.

[Edited 2] : With ring of protection + 2 and a balduran cloak you got an AC of -9. This is while still having 5 APR. Now you can still add a robe for slashing resistance and a girdle for either blunt or slashing.

AC - 9
AC - 14 slashing.

A warrior that dual wields (Have to dual wield to get 3 APR) Will have the same AC of -9 (With drizzt sword, cloak of balduran, full plate, ring +2 , helm of Balduran) but none of the extra protection of the sorcerer.

SionIV

ryuken87 said:

I'm not seeing where the damage comes from. With 18/50 str the damage range is 4-7 (2-5 without the Sequencer) with 5 apr at a rather poor thac0 (15ish). Have I missed something? I guess you could have DUHM if you're good aligned. A F/T multi can get 4 apr either dual wielding or with a bow, deal a lot more per hit and hit more often.

The damage is in the poison damage. With 5 APR you can stack so much poison it's ridicolous. After about 6-8 seconds in combat with Sarevok you'll have so much poison damage on him that you can walk to the other side of the room and take a coffee break while he dies on his own.

Imagine dual wielding two daggers of poison on a warrior with 5 APR.

[Edited] : The sword spider has 18 poison damage. So if you hit 5 times you'll deal out 90 damage from poison alone.