It's also possible to dispel the spider claws and then trade the poison for a weapon instead, with 5 APR.
How do you do this cheesy exploit I want to try at least once? How do you target a dispel on the claws only? What am I missing?
This is one of the only reasons the Shapeshifter is playable in any difficult enhancing mod (Claws are only +3). The thing you do is to cast dispel magic on yourself to remove the initial weapon. That way you can be a greater werewolf with their great ThacO and a +5 scimitar for it's damage. Same works for most other forms, including the sword spider.
[Edited]: to make it a little more clear to understand. The weapons of the creature you shapeshift into are magical weapons. It's the same if you throw a dispel magic on a priest with a flameblade, as if you do it on a shapeshift greater werewolf.
[Edited 2] : As i mentioned in an earlier post of mine, you trade the poison for a weapon. For a pure sorcerer i would keep the spider fangs for the poison. But if i played a Fighter / mage or a fighter that early on duals to a mage i would dispell the weapons to use a weapon he is profficient with. Level 5 warrior / 9 mage with everything into two handed sword. Now buff up, go into spider form and have someone in your party remove the fangs with dispel magic. Voila you got a Spiders bane (+2 two handed sword) with 5 points into it and 5 APR.
I'd say there's a case for the F/T being the strongest in BG1, I prefer gnome or halfling multis myself. Arcane casters need to wait a little before they become powerful. At early levels they have great disabling spells in Sleep and Web but they need to wait until they get level 3 spells and a couple of wands before they can start dishing out the hurt. The sorc build @SionIV posted isn't possible under the exp cap without a lot of scroll use (which I'm fairly certain don't exist in any great quantity), would be awful until level 8/9, and require obscene micromanagement. A F/T multi is consistently more powerful throughout the game.
In BG2 there is no contest - arcane casters are better.
I play with difficult enhancing mods and unless you buff up like that with said mods you'll die in a couple of seconds.
This build isn't the most effective out there at low level, and it's tailorer with the purpose of going into melee at BG 1 cap.
"A F/T multi is consistently more powerful throughout the game. " Until you reach max level and it's less powerful than a sorcerer with 3 strenght that runs around naked.
[Edited] : And you still got 3 first level spells, 1 third level spell for anything you want on lower level. With Sleep you can easily get the first levels under your belt without problem. Also you can change luck for web, the reason i took luck was purely for damage, web in most cases is better as sword spider is immune.
You say you play with "difficult enhancing mods". I find this to be curious.
I'd say there's a case for the F/T being the strongest in BG1, I prefer gnome or halfling multis myself. Arcane casters need to wait a little before they become powerful. At early levels they have great disabling spells in Sleep and Web but they need to wait until they get level 3 spells and a couple of wands before they can start dishing out the hurt. The sorc build @SionIV posted isn't possible under the exp cap without a lot of scroll use (which I'm fairly certain don't exist in any great quantity), would be awful until level 8/9, and require obscene micromanagement. A F/T multi is consistently more powerful throughout the game.
In BG2 there is no contest - arcane casters are better.
I play with difficult enhancing mods and unless you buff up like that with said mods you'll die in a couple of seconds.
This build isn't the most effective out there at low level, and it's tailorer with the purpose of going into melee at BG 1 cap.
"A F/T multi is consistently more powerful throughout the game. " Until you reach max level and it's less powerful than a sorcerer with 3 strenght that runs around naked.
[Edited] : And you still got 3 first level spells, 1 third level spell for anything you want on lower level. With Sleep you can easily get the first levels under your belt without problem. Also you can change luck for web, the reason i took luck was purely for damage, web in most cases is better as sword spider is immune.
You say you play with "difficult enhancing mods". I find this to be curious.
That's their first spell they cast if pre-buff is installed. They 'will' dispel your buffs.
I smell a little BS.
Most of the groups in BG 1 has a single, at the most two mages. It's not hard to get around to attacking them first, or even moving the fighters away from the rest of the group. I always play a mage over sorcerer when i play SCS, and that means i can change my spells depending on the fight. With minor sequencer you can get invinsibility on your spider form which lets you pick the terms of battle when you end up fighting theese groups. A web spell will still shut down the melee.
The charm with playing a mage is that i can change my spells depending on the fight. And this is something i value over a sorcerer when i play SCS and especially no reloading. The sword spider tactic is just one out of many, and works amazingly well against groups heavy with fighters and such.
With the right spells and some careful planning you can take out SCS mages with prebuffs. I play solo most of the time and if i have to take out 2-3 and then retreat to rest again that's fine by me.
[Edited] :
1.) Use wand of monster summoning 2.) Use haste on yourself 3.) Send in hasted monsters and watch as the mages will use their dispel to remove their haste.
It's the same when you're in BG2. Once you get skeletal warriors it's pretty simple to send them in to soak up the spells. Summon up 5 of them and first send in one to take the innitial death spell, then send in the rest of them to soak up the spell arsenal of the enemy mage.
[Edited 2] : A fighter in SCS that chugs a Potion of Magical shielding or the like, and then a cloud giant strenght makes me alot more worried than most mages in BG1.
I'd love to see a solo Sorcerer do the Final Battle in SCS and the Chess Board in Durlags.
Neither of those battles are very hard when you stock up on potions and scrolls. I would say Durlag's is slightly harder as you can focus on downing sarevok and ignore his cronies. Grab a couple of potions of explosions for Chess Board. It really isn't that hard with protection from lightning and fire from scrolls and potions.
[Edited] :
Most encounters in BG1 are quite trivial if the player have stocked up on potions and scrolls (And playing solo, you should have enough money to buy ever scroll and potion in the game). The whole of Frozen Iceland is nullified by having a scroll of protection from magic. Even the winter wolves attacks do no damage as you're immune to them from the scroll. The scroll of magic protection is very much cheese, but it's one way to do it. It locks out your own magic aswell, but with some careful planning you should be able to go melee and beat the livin daylight out of the enemy mages. Sadly there are only so many scrolls of magic protection in the game (Around 5-6 i think?)
I still want to see a solo Sorcerer/Mage solo those two specific battles with SCS and pre-buffing installed.
Theory-crafting is fine and dandy, but with my 6th run in SCS coming to a close ( 4-man Bard party ), I'm going to have to see a Mage/Sorcerer be able to solo the two 'hardest' battles in the game to believe it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it can, but with a unhealthy dose of cheese and exploits.
I have done Sarevok with a pure class mage, and i have done Durlag's Tower with a thief/mage and a swash dual classed to a mage. Alesia_BH on the social bioware forum solo Sarevok with all SCS components easily, in a No reload game even, several times.
SCS is an amazing mod for what it does to the game, but it still doesn't make it much harder to pull Sarevok on his own. A sorcerer buffed up in sword spider form will 1v1 Sarevok.
The chess event isn't that hard, you can stand on your edge and after you're buffed up you can clear house with potions of explosions and some charges from your Wand of monster summoning. The two hard parts wth chess event is that it can be buggy (on trilogy) and the queen.
[Edited] : Some people are going through the whole saga from candlekeep to melissan with SCS, Tactics, Ascension without reloading with anything from Bounty hunter to sorcerer solo. Saros on the social forum have no reloaded improved anvil which is in another ballpark than SCS when it comes to difficulty (IA lets the computer of with so much cheese that you really have to bite your teeth to even get out of chateu irenicus with 30 reloads on your back.
It's a solo sorcerer with focus on Polymorph self. She finished him in sword spider form after having killed every single one of his henchmen. She does this feat several times after this with everything from solo bounty hunter, to another two sorcerer and a Mage/thief.
[Edited 3] : SCS in itself is very simple if you're allowed to reload. You can go through the whole saga with SCS with any character and still do well and complete it (Ascension makes it so that certain classes can't finish). You don't have to cheese encounters to get them done. It's first when you introduce that you can't reload it starts getting difficult and you have to plan ahead.
SCS sarevok is a fun and challenging fight, but it is in no way impossible with a solo sorcerer, nor do you have to use cheese to get it done. The reason that arcane casters are so much more powerful than the rest is that the only limit to tactics is your own mind. Mustard jelley to kill spell casters, sword spider to kill fighters. Casting glitterdust and blind people to make them stand still. Almost every single spell has one use or another.
I'm thinking people who think F/T can beat any arcane caster are playing casters wrong if at all.
I am not saying that.
Arcane casters > F/T for power pretty much throughout the saga
For melee only, however, I'll take a modestly buffed F/T over the sorcerer for damage dealing.
Someone much smarter can me can check my math but I see it as:
The sorcerer has a 16 thac0 without potions (but we'll assume the sorcerer further boosts that 2 points to a 14 thac0) does 18 poison damage per hit and does an additional 4-7 damage per hit. Attacking a 0 AC opponent, that means that the sorcerer hits an average of 1.75 attacks per round for an average of 43.75 damage per round (assuming a full 7 damage per hit). Maximum damage no criticals and 5 hits is 125.
A F/T wielding the staff of striking does 3x damage with backstab. Buffing with the F/T for many fewer rounds gets you: potions of frost giant strength and speed and using DuHM, the F/T has 3 attacks per round and a thac0 of 4 (14 base, 5 lower for stngth, 1 lower for pfncy, 3 lower for weapon. 1 lower for gauntlets). Each attack does 1d6+9 (weapon) +2 (proficiency) +11 for 23-28 damage. The F/T can backstab twice in the same round with a ring or potion. In that round attacking a 0 AC, the F/T will hit an average of 1.75 backstabs and .85 normal attacks for a total of: 1.75 x ((3 x (3.5+9+2)) + 11) and .85 x 25.5 = 114.1 damage. Once you start throwing in criticals (more likely for the F/T with two handed weapon specialization) and the difference gets bigger.
Once you throw in criticals, the difference gets bigger. A sorcerer should critical a little less than the F/T (5% chance on 5 attacks versus 10% chance on 3 attacks) for an additional average of 2 points of damage (the poison doesn't double). The F/T should critical a little more often than the sorcerer for an additional average of 8 damage per round (weighed average of the backstabs versus non-backstabs).
Sorcerer Avg: 43.75 Max: 125 Max with avg critical: 127
F/T Avg: 114.1 Max: 152 Max with avg critical: 160
It seems like the average round for the F/T with three buffs is almost triple the average round for the sorcerer and the F/T has a significant edge under each scenario but I'll readily admit this isn't math I regularly do and it may be wonky!
Nevertheless, it has convinced me of the sheer game breakingness that is DC'd characters.
Not to distract from the awful PvP argument of F/T vs. F/M vs. Sorc or whatever (do people not realize how bad those are??), BUT a question:
I've seen it suggested, but never confirmed, that the dual-class proficiency thing is contrary to PnP rules. I.e. in BG, I can get 3 pips in short sword as a fighter, then dual to thief, and then later get to GM in short sword (or indeed any other weapon) as I advance in thief levels. Whereas, it's been suggested that under the real rule, you would be stuck at 3 pips in short sword forever, and could only get 1 pip in any other weapon as you advance as a (perforce vanilla) thief. Is that correct? And does it mean that one of the main strengths of dual-class characters is actually just bug exploitation?
Just wondering, as I don't have PnP books handy to check.
This is correct. There is not only the bug but it ends up being like the R/C dual class where the R/C dual class gets access to level 7 Druid spells faster than a pure druid with the same experience since the dual class fighter can get access to grand master faster than a pure fighter with the same experience.
<blockquote class="Quote" rel="AHF"><blockquote class="Quote" rel="FinneousPJ">I'm thinking people who think F/T can beat any arcane caster are playing casters wrong if at all.</blockquote>
I am not saying that.
Arcane casters > F/T for power pretty much throughout the saga
For melee only, however, I'll take a modestly buffed F/T over the sorcerer for damage dealing.
Someone much smarter can me can check my math but I see it as:
The sorcerer has a 16 thac0 without potions (but we'll assume the sorcerer further boosts that 2 points to a 14 thac0) does 18 poison damage per hit and does an additional 4-7 damage per hit. Attacking a 0 AC opponent, that means that the sorcerer hits an average of 1.75 attacks per round for an average of 43.75 damage per round (assuming a full 7 damage per hit). Maximum damage no criticals and 5 hits is 125.
A F/T wielding the staff of striking does 3x damage with backstab. Buffing with the F/T for many fewer rounds gets you: potions of frost giant strength and speed and using DuHM, the F/T has 3 attacks per round and a thac0 of 4 (14 base, 5 lower for stngth, 1 lower for pfncy, 3 lower for weapon. 1 lower for gauntlets). Each attack does 1d6+9 (weapon) +2 (proficiency) +11 for 23-28 damage. The F/T can backstab twice in the same round with a ring or potion. In that round attacking a 0 AC, the F/T will hit an average of 1.75 backstabs and .85 normal attacks for a total of: 1.75 x ((3 x (3.5+9+2)) + 11) and .85 x 25.5 = 114.1 damage. Once you start throwing in criticals (more likely for the F/T with two handed weapon specialization) and the difference gets bigger.
Once you throw in criticals, the difference gets bigger. A sorcerer should critical a little less than the F/T (5% chance on 5 attacks versus 10% chance on 3 attacks) for an additional average of 2 points of damage (the poison doesn't double). The F/T should critical a little more often than the sorcerer for an additional average of 8 damage per round (weighed average of the backstabs versus non-backstabs).
Sorcerer Avg: 43.75 Max: 125 Max with avg critical: 127
F/T Avg: 114.1 Max: 152 Max with avg critical: 160
It seems like the average round for the F/T with three buffs is almost triple the average round for the sorcerer and the F/T has a significant edge under each scenario but I'll readily admit this isn't math I regularly do and it may be wonky! </blockquote>
If you're counting backstab then you should count in web aswell. Then the sorcerer will connect each hit. The F/T has more damage from backstabs in a short amount of time. But a sword spider with 5 APR attacking a webbed target should be able to reach the same damage if not more.
If i was you i would throw away the staff of striking and equip both of drizzt scimitars and dual wield. Strenght does not affect the damage you get from backstabs. But a 25 strenght with a potion of power + potion of heroism will put your Thac0 as a fighter/thief in the - bracket. Now dual wielding with a potion of speed gives you 4 APR.
So 4 APR with 25 strenght and a ThacO that is in the minus should get you more damage than backstabbing. Also if you're using the Staff of Striking you'll lose out on 2 AC which you get from Drizzt defender.
I'm not sure, but I think that a Fighter/Mage multi should eventually surpass a Fighter/Thief dual or multi in melee, but I am pretty sure that a plain sorcerer doesn't stand a chance against the F/T unless the F/T isn't allowed potions.
I see weird little journal entries saying they've soloed the areas I've mentioned. No videos, only pictures of random things said person is writing a book about.
Again, not saying it can't be done. I just want to see it instead of reading a BG style fan fiction. She/He did provide screenshots of her Final Battle with her Archer. Again, however, no video, no way of knowing if she/he is even using SCS, and if she didn't CTRL+Y some of the enemies.
I've not been able to perform the cheat of dispelling spiders claws. I created two sorcerors and cast it on each other several times - no dice. Maybe TobEx fixes this exploit? (using BG2). I raised the level of one of the sorcerors kinda high over the other and tried as well.
I'm thinking people who think F/T can beat any arcane caster are playing casters wrong if at all.
I am not saying that.
Arcane casters > F/T for power pretty much throughout the saga
For melee only, however, I'll take a modestly buffed F/T over the sorcerer for damage dealing.
Someone much smarter can me can check my math but I see it as:
The sorcerer has a 16 thac0 without potions (but we'll assume the sorcerer further boosts that 2 points to a 14 thac0) does 18 poison damage per hit and does an additional 4-7 damage per hit. Attacking a 0 AC opponent, that means that the sorcerer hits an average of 1.75 attacks per round for an average of 43.75 damage per round (assuming a full 7 damage per hit). Maximum damage no criticals and 5 hits is 125.
A F/T wielding the staff of striking does 3x damage with backstab. Buffing with the F/T for many fewer rounds gets you: potions of frost giant strength and speed and using DuHM, the F/T has 3 attacks per round and a thac0 of 4 (14 base, 5 lower for stngth, 1 lower for pfncy, 3 lower for weapon. 1 lower for gauntlets). Each attack does 1d6+9 (weapon) +2 (proficiency) +11 for 23-28 damage. The F/T can backstab twice in the same round with a ring or potion. In that round attacking a 0 AC, the F/T will hit an average of 1.75 backstabs and .85 normal attacks for a total of: 1.75 x ((3 x (3.5+9+2)) + 11) and .85 x 25.5 = 114.1 damage. Once you start throwing in criticals (more likely for the F/T with two handed weapon specialization) and the difference gets bigger.
Once you throw in criticals, the difference gets bigger. A sorcerer should critical a little less than the F/T (5% chance on 5 attacks versus 10% chance on 3 attacks) for an additional average of 2 points of damage (the poison doesn't double). The F/T should critical a little more often than the sorcerer for an additional average of 8 damage per round (weighed average of the backstabs versus non-backstabs).
Sorcerer Avg: 43.75 Max: 125 Max with avg critical: 127
F/T Avg: 114.1 Max: 152 Max with avg critical: 160
It seems like the average round for the F/T with three buffs is almost triple the average round for the sorcerer and the F/T has a significant edge under each scenario but I'll readily admit this isn't math I regularly do and it may be wonky!
If you're counting backstab then i'll count in web aswell. Then the sorcerer will connect each hit. The F/T has more damage from backstabs in a short amount of time. But a sword spider with 5 APR attacking a webbed target should be able to reach the same damage if not more.
If i was you i would throw away the staff of striking and equip both of drizzt scimitars and dual wield. Strenght does not affect the damage you get from backstabs. But a 25 strenght with a potion of power + potion of heroism will put your Thac0 as a fighter/thief in the - bracket. Now dual wielding with a potion of speed gives you 4 APR.
So 4 APR with 25 strenght and a ThacO that is in the minus should get you more damage than backstabbing. Also if you're using the Staff of Striking you'll lose out on 2 AC which you get from Drizzt defender.
"If you are counting backstabs..."?? You say this as if backstabbing was incidental to the melee approach of the F/T such that you might not include it. Backstabs are the melee advantage of the F/T over the F. If you ignore backstabs, you should be talking about a pure fighter or some dual class with grand mastery.
I do agree you can definitely boost the thief higher with potions of power, cloud giant potions, potions of heroism, etc. I was just picking a pretty low maintenance approach that could be done in every significant battle in the game.
The damage from the backstabbing, however, easily exceeds the dual wielding scimitar damage if you are using the ring or a potion to pull it off twice in a round.
The web addition (dropping the luck buff probably) still is less than the F/T. The sorcerer does an average of 5.5 + 18 damage per attack or 23.5 damage x 5 = 117.5.
Once you start rolling in the 25 strength you propose, the average damage for the F/T jumps significantly more (10% more likely to hit plus 3 additional damage per attack) and easily exceeds the sorcerer's. Also, I forgot to factor in the +4 attack bonus for backstabbing which would raise the F/T number even higher.
I'm not sure, but I think that a Fighter/Mage multi should eventually surpass a Fighter/Thief dual or multi in melee, but I am pretty sure that a plain sorcerer doesn't stand a chance against the F/T unless the F/T isn't allowed potions.
A F/M will destroy a F/T when it comes to damage. A naked sorcerer with 3 strenght can beat a F/T that isn't drugged on every potion known to man . A level 1 fighter / 9 mage dual classed will beat the F/T aswell if both are using potions.
I see weird little journal entries saying they've soloed the areas I've mentioned. No videos, only pictures of random things said person is writing a book about.
Again, not saying it can't be done. I just want to see it instead of reading a BG style fan fiction. She/He did provide screenshots of her Final Battle with her Archer. Again, however, no video, no way of knowing if she/he is even using SCS, and if she didn't CTRL+Y some of the enemies.
You just insulted what is probably the best BG player that have been seen on the Bioware forum. And you're also saying that they are writing down lies in a 300 page long thread about no reloads? Not to mention she lies about it several times throught the thread?
Also the pictures showing how she kills every one of his cronies including buffs and such isn't enough?
I'm just going to have to come forward with this and say that you're bad if you don't believe them. It's alright if you don't trust in what i'm saying as i haven't shown any pictures other than calculations of my own games. But that you're putting down the people in that thread where they explain in detail how they go through every fight? I'm speechless.
I rather stop writing in this thread now, than turning this into a flamewar.
[Edited 4] : Removed some unnecessary comments that came out of irritation. And you can see from the buffs on the mages that it's SCS and the skeletons are from improved Sarevok.
A naked sorcerer with 3 strenght can beat a F/T that isn't drugged on every potion known to man
2 potions = every potion known to man? (Cloud giant strength or other giant strength + speed). Really?
Edit: I will say that I agree that a sorcerer can do very well in melee but trying to argue the damage is better than the F/T just doesn't add up even when you throw in 9 rounds of buffing for the sorcerer with spells additional buffing for 2 more points of thaco boost and a web on the opponent.
Oh for heavens sake, please just stop this madness. You both disagree, there's no need to take this any further. I apologize if I come across as snappish but it's clear that no accord will be found here.
I am happy to call 2 greater than 1. I just don't see the numbers adding up. This shouldn't be a matter of accord because it is just a matter of adding numbers.
I am not making any personal attacks and am happy to learn what I am missing. I likewise don't feel personally attacked by SionIV.
Sorry if that bothers you or bores you. I will drop the subject.
My post wasn't actually directed at you @AHF, really sorry about the misunderstanding. Mistakenly misread your name, thought you were the one who posted the stuff Copastetic did.
I'll drop the subject too now, don't want to get involved.
My post wasn't actually directed at you AHF, really sorry about the misunderstanding. Mistakenly misread your name, thought you were the one who posted the stuff Copastetic did.
I'll drop the subject too now, don't want to get involved.
Sorry - no problem. I agree with SionIV's basic point (that sorcerers or other arcane casters can be very effective in melee with shapeshifting) but don't understand the math on the particular point (that sorcerers will either average or max above a F/T in melee). I get why these posts can be boring though. I have skipped these types of discussions on other threads due to lack of interest and found others fascinating for better understanding the BG mechanics.
It's not that I found them boring per se (love number debates) but rather that I felt it's starting to get a little too much like an argument rather than a debate. In hindsight my first post was way too strongly worded, heh.
A naked sorcerer with 3 strenght can beat a F/T that isn't drugged on every potion known to man
2 potions = every potion known to man? (Cloud giant strength or other giant strength + speed). Really?
Edit: I will say that I agree that a sorcerer can do very well in melee but trying to argue the damage is better than the F/T just doesn't add up even when you throw in 9 rounds of buffing for the sorcerer with spells additional buffing for 2 more points of thaco boost and a web on the opponent.
I was adding :
Potion of Power : Set to 80% of current base Thac0 Potion of Heroism : Set to 90% of current base Thac0.
Anyway i made F/T and did some tests with the sorceror (When it comes to damage)
Unbuffed F/T -> Sorceror Sorceror + web -> Unbuffed F/T. Buffed F/T -> Sorceror + web
So yes it's possible to deal out more damage in melee as a F/T than a sorceror with the Totsc XP cap. And if you're using potions it's quite the difference.
I still stand by that if you add survivability and don't just look at damage, the sorceror handles a melee fight better all in all.
Anyway, feels like this thread got quite a bit derailed, and i apologize for my part of it.
I see weird little journal entries saying they've soloed the areas I've mentioned. No videos, only pictures of random things said person is writing a book about.
Again, not saying it can't be done. I just want to see it instead of reading a BG style fan fiction. She/He did provide screenshots of her Final Battle with her Archer. Again, however, no video, no way of knowing if she/he is even using SCS, and if she didn't CTRL+Y some of the enemies.
Now you're being silly. Why don't you post a video of yourself trying it? As though that proves anything.
I see weird little journal entries saying they've soloed the areas I've mentioned. No videos, only pictures of random things said person is writing a book about.
Again, not saying it can't be done. I just want to see it instead of reading a BG style fan fiction. She/He did provide screenshots of her Final Battle with her Archer. Again, however, no video, no way of knowing if she/he is even using SCS, and if she didn't CTRL+Y some of the enemies.
Now you're being silly. Why don't you post a video of yourself trying it? As though that proves anything.
Hi. Not sure what exactly you're talking about. I'm not sure why there's hostility aimed toward me by my request, I'm just trying to gauge the tactics I can do on my next run, which will be a solo one with a F6/M9.
I ask specifically for a video due to a lot of reasons that should be pretty apparent.
Comments
According to this, http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/4942/bug-dispel-magic-removes-the-natural-weapons-granted-by-shapeshifting-spells-and-abilities you lose the poison when you do this.
[Edited]: to make it a little more clear to understand. The weapons of the creature you shapeshift into are magical weapons. It's the same if you throw a dispel magic on a priest with a flameblade, as if you do it on a shapeshift greater werewolf.
[Edited 2] : As i mentioned in an earlier post of mine, you trade the poison for a weapon. For a pure sorcerer i would keep the spider fangs for the poison. But if i played a Fighter / mage or a fighter that early on duals to a mage i would dispell the weapons to use a weapon he is profficient with. Level 5 warrior / 9 mage with everything into two handed sword. Now buff up, go into spider form and have someone in your party remove the fangs with dispel magic. Voila you got a Spiders bane (+2 two handed sword) with 5 points into it and 5 APR.
SCS Mages casting multiple Dispel Magics says "Hi!"
That's their first spell they cast if pre-buff is installed. They 'will' dispel your buffs.
I smell a little BS.
The charm with playing a mage is that i can change my spells depending on the fight. And this is something i value over a sorcerer when i play SCS and especially no reloading. The sword spider tactic is just one out of many, and works amazingly well against groups heavy with fighters and such.
With the right spells and some careful planning you can take out SCS mages with prebuffs. I play solo most of the time and if i have to take out 2-3 and then retreat to rest again that's fine by me.
[Edited] :
1.) Use wand of monster summoning
2.) Use haste on yourself
3.) Send in hasted monsters and watch as the mages will use their dispel to remove their haste.
It's the same when you're in BG2. Once you get skeletal warriors it's pretty simple to send them in to soak up the spells. Summon up 5 of them and first send in one to take the innitial death spell, then send in the rest of them to soak up the spell arsenal of the enemy mage.
[Edited 2] : A fighter in SCS that chugs a Potion of Magical shielding or the like, and then a cloud giant strenght makes me alot more worried than most mages in BG1.
[Edited] :
Most encounters in BG1 are quite trivial if the player have stocked up on potions and scrolls (And playing solo, you should have enough money to buy ever scroll and potion in the game). The whole of Frozen Iceland is nullified by having a scroll of protection from magic. Even the winter wolves attacks do no damage as you're immune to them from the scroll. The scroll of magic protection is very much cheese, but it's one way to do it. It locks out your own magic aswell, but with some careful planning you should be able to go melee and beat the livin daylight out of the enemy mages. Sadly there are only so many scrolls of magic protection in the game (Around 5-6 i think?)
Theory-crafting is fine and dandy, but with my 6th run in SCS coming to a close ( 4-man Bard party ), I'm going to have to see a Mage/Sorcerer be able to solo the two 'hardest' battles in the game to believe it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it can, but with a unhealthy dose of cheese and exploits.
SCS is an amazing mod for what it does to the game, but it still doesn't make it much harder to pull Sarevok on his own. A sorcerer buffed up in sword spider form will 1v1 Sarevok.
The chess event isn't that hard, you can stand on your edge and after you're buffed up you can clear house with potions of explosions and some charges from your Wand of monster summoning. The two hard parts wth chess event is that it can be buggy (on trilogy) and the queen.
[Edited] : Some people are going through the whole saga from candlekeep to melissan with SCS, Tactics, Ascension without reloading with anything from Bounty hunter to sorcerer solo. Saros on the social forum have no reloaded improved anvil which is in another ballpark than SCS when it comes to difficulty (IA lets the computer of with so much cheese that you really have to bite your teeth to even get out of chateu irenicus with 30 reloads on your back.
[Edited 2] : Here you can see Alesia_BH soloing Sarevok with SCS for the first time in a No Reload game.
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/181/index/3124065/62
It's a solo sorcerer with focus on Polymorph self. She finished him in sword spider form after having killed every single one of his henchmen. She does this feat several times after this with everything from solo bounty hunter, to another two sorcerer and a Mage/thief.
[Edited 3] : SCS in itself is very simple if you're allowed to reload. You can go through the whole saga with SCS with any character and still do well and complete it (Ascension makes it so that certain classes can't finish). You don't have to cheese encounters to get them done. It's first when you introduce that you can't reload it starts getting difficult and you have to plan ahead.
SCS sarevok is a fun and challenging fight, but it is in no way impossible with a solo sorcerer, nor do you have to use cheese to get it done. The reason that arcane casters are so much more powerful than the rest is that the only limit to tactics is your own mind. Mustard jelley to kill spell casters, sword spider to kill fighters. Casting glitterdust and blind people to make them stand still. Almost every single spell has one use or another.
Arcane casters > F/T for power pretty much throughout the saga
For melee only, however, I'll take a modestly buffed F/T over the sorcerer for damage dealing.
Someone much smarter can me can check my math but I see it as:
The sorcerer has a 16 thac0 without potions (but we'll assume the sorcerer further boosts that 2 points to a 14 thac0) does 18 poison damage per hit and does an additional 4-7 damage per hit. Attacking a 0 AC opponent, that means that the sorcerer hits an average of 1.75 attacks per round for an average of 43.75 damage per round (assuming a full 7 damage per hit). Maximum damage no criticals and 5 hits is 125.
A F/T wielding the staff of striking does 3x damage with backstab. Buffing with the F/T for many fewer rounds gets you: potions of frost giant strength and speed and using DuHM, the F/T has 3 attacks per round and a thac0 of 4 (14 base, 5 lower for stngth, 1 lower for pfncy, 3 lower for weapon. 1 lower for gauntlets). Each attack does 1d6+9 (weapon) +2 (proficiency) +11 for 23-28 damage. The F/T can backstab twice in the same round with a ring or potion. In that round attacking a 0 AC, the F/T will hit an average of 1.75 backstabs and .85 normal attacks for a total of: 1.75 x ((3 x (3.5+9+2)) + 11) and .85 x 25.5 = 114.1 damage. Once you start throwing in criticals (more likely for the F/T with two handed weapon specialization) and the difference gets bigger.
Once you throw in criticals, the difference gets bigger. A sorcerer should critical a little less than the F/T (5% chance on 5 attacks versus 10% chance on 3 attacks) for an additional average of 2 points of damage (the poison doesn't double). The F/T should critical a little more often than the sorcerer for an additional average of 8 damage per round (weighed average of the backstabs versus non-backstabs).
Sorcerer
Avg: 43.75
Max: 125
Max with avg critical: 127
F/T
Avg: 114.1
Max: 152
Max with avg critical: 160
It seems like the average round for the F/T with three buffs is almost triple the average round for the sorcerer and the F/T has a significant edge under each scenario but I'll readily admit this isn't math I regularly do and it may be wonky!
I am not saying that.
Arcane casters > F/T for power pretty much throughout the saga
For melee only, however, I'll take a modestly buffed F/T over the sorcerer for damage dealing.
Someone much smarter can me can check my math but I see it as:
The sorcerer has a 16 thac0 without potions (but we'll assume the sorcerer further boosts that 2 points to a 14 thac0) does 18 poison damage per hit and does an additional 4-7 damage per hit. Attacking a 0 AC opponent, that means that the sorcerer hits an average of 1.75 attacks per round for an average of 43.75 damage per round (assuming a full 7 damage per hit). Maximum damage no criticals and 5 hits is 125.
A F/T wielding the staff of striking does 3x damage with backstab. Buffing with the F/T for many fewer rounds gets you: potions of frost giant strength and speed and using DuHM, the F/T has 3 attacks per round and a thac0 of 4 (14 base, 5 lower for stngth, 1 lower for pfncy, 3 lower for weapon. 1 lower for gauntlets). Each attack does 1d6+9 (weapon) +2 (proficiency) +11 for 23-28 damage. The F/T can backstab twice in the same round with a ring or potion. In that round attacking a 0 AC, the F/T will hit an average of 1.75 backstabs and .85 normal attacks for a total of: 1.75 x ((3 x (3.5+9+2)) + 11) and .85 x 25.5 = 114.1 damage. Once you start throwing in criticals (more likely for the F/T with two handed weapon specialization) and the difference gets bigger.
Once you throw in criticals, the difference gets bigger. A sorcerer should critical a little less than the F/T (5% chance on 5 attacks versus 10% chance on 3 attacks) for an additional average of 2 points of damage (the poison doesn't double). The F/T should critical a little more often than the sorcerer for an additional average of 8 damage per round (weighed average of the backstabs versus non-backstabs).
Sorcerer
Avg: 43.75
Max: 125
Max with avg critical: 127
F/T
Avg: 114.1
Max: 152
Max with avg critical: 160
It seems like the average round for the F/T with three buffs is almost triple the average round for the sorcerer and the F/T has a significant edge under each scenario but I'll readily admit this isn't math I regularly do and it may be wonky!
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If you're counting backstab then you should count in web aswell. Then the sorcerer will connect each hit. The F/T has more damage from backstabs in a short amount of time. But a sword spider with 5 APR attacking a webbed target should be able to reach the same damage if not more.
If i was you i would throw away the staff of striking and equip both of drizzt scimitars and dual wield. Strenght does not affect the damage you get from backstabs. But a 25 strenght with a potion of power + potion of heroism will put your Thac0 as a fighter/thief in the - bracket. Now dual wielding with a potion of speed gives you 4 APR.
So 4 APR with 25 strenght and a ThacO that is in the minus should get you more damage than backstabbing. Also if you're using the Staff of Striking you'll lose out on 2 AC which you get from Drizzt defender.
I see weird little journal entries saying they've soloed the areas I've mentioned. No videos, only pictures of random things said person is writing a book about.
Again, not saying it can't be done. I just want to see it instead of reading a BG style fan fiction. She/He did provide screenshots of her Final Battle with her Archer. Again, however, no video, no way of knowing if she/he is even using SCS, and if she didn't CTRL+Y some of the enemies.
I do agree you can definitely boost the thief higher with potions of power, cloud giant potions, potions of heroism, etc. I was just picking a pretty low maintenance approach that could be done in every significant battle in the game.
The damage from the backstabbing, however, easily exceeds the dual wielding scimitar damage if you are using the ring or a potion to pull it off twice in a round.
The web addition (dropping the luck buff probably) still is less than the F/T. The sorcerer does an average of 5.5 + 18 damage per attack or 23.5 damage x 5 = 117.5.
Once you start rolling in the 25 strength you propose, the average damage for the F/T jumps significantly more (10% more likely to hit plus 3 additional damage per attack) and easily exceeds the sorcerer's. Also, I forgot to factor in the +4 attack bonus for backstabbing which would raise the F/T number even higher.
You just insulted what is probably the best BG player that have been seen on the Bioware forum. And you're also saying that they are writing down lies in a 300 page long thread about no reloads? Not to mention she lies about it several times throught the thread?
Also the pictures showing how she kills every one of his cronies including buffs and such isn't enough?
I'm just going to have to come forward with this and say that you're bad if you don't believe them. It's alright if you don't trust in what i'm saying as i haven't shown any pictures other than calculations of my own games. But that you're putting down the people in that thread where they explain in detail how they go through every fight? I'm speechless.
I rather stop writing in this thread now, than turning this into a flamewar.
[Edited] : http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/181/index/3124065/65 -> Her doing Sarevok SCS no reload with archer.
[Edited 2] : http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/181/index/3124065/71 -> Her doing Sarevok SCS no reload with bounty hunter + imoen. As you can see in this entry potions and over buffing really makes for an easy game even with SCS.
[Edited 3] : http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/181/index/3124065/73 -> Beast master solo Sarevok SCS no reload.
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/181/index/3124065/86 -> Solo Sarevok SCS with pure Fighter No reload.
[Edited 4] : Removed some unnecessary comments that came out of irritation. And you can see from the buffs on the mages that it's SCS and the skeletons are from improved Sarevok.
Edit: I will say that I agree that a sorcerer can do very well in melee but trying to argue the damage is better than the F/T just doesn't add up even when you throw in 9 rounds of buffing for the sorcerer with spells additional buffing for 2 more points of thaco boost and a web on the opponent.
I've not insulted anyone in my opinion. I'm only stating what I've been saying since the beginning: Show me. You've yet to do so.
Instead of getting upset, why not make a quick video of you doing it? Surely that's a reasonable request?
I am not making any personal attacks and am happy to learn what I am missing. I likewise don't feel personally attacked by SionIV.
Sorry if that bothers you or bores you. I will drop the subject.
I'll drop the subject too now, don't want to get involved.
lol what?
Potion of Power : Set to 80% of current base Thac0
Potion of Heroism : Set to 90% of current base Thac0.
Anyway i made F/T and did some tests with the sorceror (When it comes to damage)
Unbuffed F/T -> Sorceror
Sorceror + web -> Unbuffed F/T.
Buffed F/T -> Sorceror + web
So yes it's possible to deal out more damage in melee as a F/T than a sorceror with the Totsc XP cap. And if you're using potions it's quite the difference.
I still stand by that if you add survivability and don't just look at damage, the sorceror handles a melee fight better all in all.
Anyway, feels like this thread got quite a bit derailed, and i apologize for my part of it.
Hi. Not sure what exactly you're talking about. I'm not sure why there's hostility aimed toward me by my request, I'm just trying to gauge the tactics I can do on my next run, which will be a solo one with a F6/M9.
I ask specifically for a video due to a lot of reasons that should be pretty apparent.
Sadly you can't get that last proficiency slot as it's going to have to be a F5/M9 =P
Oops, meant Thief.