Dorn Il-Khan Romance **Spoilers**

MiriCBrown

So I've been playing through his quest line and got that done, but it seems like he has few conversation sparks in between everything and I have no idea how, when, where, and why they'll pop up. Normally, I'm okay with figuring this stuff out on my own, but when I do get those conversations, namly pointing the one about someone possibly betraying me and how I'll occasionally talk to people and do quests for them, it seems like he's pretty indifferent to what I have to say, which normally isn't a bad thing, he's an lawful evil blackguard, I'm not expecting him to drop his armor for me or be a hopless romantic(blaggh), but I have to admit that it's kinda frustrating not being able to tell if he approves or not. Some general tips on how to talk to him would be nice, I normally play a chaotic netural character and have a tendancy to murder anyone that screws me over(tehe) so I don't think my lack of darkness is an issue either. I've been searching all over, but it seems like I'm the only woman on the face of the earth that wants to see through his romance through the end because between the three new characters, he's the only one that is even remotly intresting. (Mainly because Rasaad is kinda, well... okay and Neera annoys me with her constant whining.) Oh, and sorry if I did anything wrong in my post, just signed up to ask this question and some of the guidelines are kinda confusing.

KidCarnival

There is no romantic-romance stuff in BG1, it's just a prelude you can interpret as "getting to know you". I'm not the only person who can't tell the difference between his "quest talk" and "romance talk". So as long as he does talk to you, I guess he approves. From what I read, Neera "confirms" that you succeeded if she kisses charname. The closest to Dorn's counterpart is him ending a talk with "Hm, perhaps you and I... nevermind" or similar.

That he doesn't banter with other NPCs is irritating, and I'm not sure why the new NPCs didn't get regular banter lines (insult, compliment, response to either, rep change). Dorn will still react like other evil NPCs and leave at 19 rep, and not let you recruit him if your rep is over 18 either.

Jackkel_Dragon

Having looked through Dorn's "romance" conversations in modding programs, the thing about them (VERY SPOILERY) is that:

- There are only two that are considered romance talks (use Dorn's romance variable).
- Unless Dorn is killed trying to murder the person the PC claims to be talking behind his back (a skippable part of the second conversation), there is no changes to Dorn's romance variable based on player responses (you can't "break" the romance unless Dorn dies permanently).
- None of Dorn's conversations even hint at a romance in the generally accepted definition of the term. (In some endings of the second conversation, Dorn cuts himself off before saying he can trust you, but this isn't exactly a romantic comment even if he wasn't reluctant to trust people after his last crew ditched him.)

Bottom line is, Dorn's "romance" in BGEE is even more of a prelude than the 3-4 conversation romances with Rasaad and Neera. Part of this is his personality and history, part of it might be that he has 3+ conversations about his history after you finish his questline and those were prioritized.

MiriCBrown

Ah, I see, that's kinda a let down, I'm kinda dissappointed with the content of the romance from baldur's gate 2, as there was like only one male option to date, and he annoyed me, and while I'm both ways and Jahiera was kinda cool, it kinda irks me that she had to have a shoulder to cry on routine, it seems like no one can make a good, strong female character that doesn't need to be supported, but rather can be strong for herself and you, and the men are ALWAYS the ones that need to rescue you instead of having crap of their own to deal with aside from the typical help me not become a vengeful monster thing. Hence the reason why I was looking foreward to seeing the possibilites the might have added with a delightfully wicked character like Dorn. Ya know, a new spin on the beauty and the beast thing. Plus, it's not like a real monster is incapable of feeling an emotional connection with someone, even if they shrug it off as a bodily attraction with attachment. It would have been a great oppritunity to show some real writing talent if they could make it an evil, somewhat workable and twisted romance, without the redemption option because more often than not, a guy like Dorn is NOT going to stop just because he cares about your opinion.

Yeah, it's kinda wierd not seeing him or the other's interact with one another, I know that Neera gets defensive... somewhat if Dorn is asking you about why you travel with people, but other than that it's non- existant, which limits them greatly in the ways of character development.IT is kinda bummer, because while other characters are often annoying(Shar-Tel, for example, I'm not for men being dominated, but I'm not a feminist either.) and many others just don't really stand out in my mind, but when they develope a likeable character, they do a fine job of it and because of that, I don't travel without Jahiera, Imoen, and Minsc, they're just pretty intresting and humoring to me, granted Khalid's cowardly routine seems like a scape goat way to identify him without giving him some real character.

KidCarnival

Dorn will be in BG2EE and have a romance there (like Neera and Rasaad). I don't think they can give him the same gimmick as Viconia and make him redeemable; he has to stay evil to keep his class and it would be too much a change to redeem him to not only a new alignment, but a completely different class. I think his dialogues are well written so far, so you should have a real alternative to Anomen in BG2EE.

MiriCBrown

Oh, I am looking foreward to that then, I will admit that Dorn is the best written character of the three so far, next up being Rasaad, and that's because I find his order increabily intresting rather than his personality. Dorn is a pretty awesome character, both personality, backstory, and well as a party character, without being the traditional half orc or evil villian type. I'm really hoping that they'll only tweak his personality slightly, nothing overly big, and without the redemption part, because people seem to have this fasination with the whole redeeming him thing when in actually there's no way in heck that would possibly happen, and if were to try that with someone, you'd just make them mad and probably get yourself killed in the process. They set this character up to be this way, and I want to see what they'll do with him while sticking with as much of his orginal design at the same time.

Jackkel_Dragon

It is rather strange that the new companions don't get much in the way of banters with other characters... Dorn actually seems to have the most interactions with other characters outside of recruitment conversations, and that only extends to 1-3 extra lines. (Spoilers: In his first romance conversation, Dorn picks a party member and points out their flaws and they get defensive. If you tell Dorn someone is talking behind his back in the second conversation, the companion tries to reason with him. Doesn't work though.)

Darrylson

Jackkel_Dragon said:

It is rather strange that the new companions don't get much in the way of banters with other characters... Dorn actually seems to have the most interactions with other characters outside of recruitment conversations, and that only extends to 1-3 extra lines. (Spoilers: In his first romance conversation, Dorn picks a party member and points out their flaws and they get defensive. If you tell Dorn someone is talking behind his back in the second conversation, the companion tries to reason with him. Doesn't work though.)

Dorn also has a fairly long (by BG1 standards) conversation with Viconia later on where she regards him as a sort of "kindred spirit" since they're both spurned and hated by the society they find themselves in.

MiriCBrown

Yeah, I remeber both of them(You can blame boo, lol), but I guess it also plays into the whole getting to know you thing(now I have that King and I song stuck in my head.) With Dorn, it's understandable, he doesn't trust anyone, and he HAS to interact with you on some level because you're the party leader, but with the others, they seem social enough, you'd think Neera would jump on the chance for a little civil, not discecting conversation every now and then, and Rasaad just seems like a pleasent individual overall. So to have them be so anti-social seems to contrast their characters quiet a bit.

MiriCBrown

Darrylson said:

Jackkel_Dragon said:

It is rather strange that the new companions don't get much in the way of banters with other characters... Dorn actually seems to have the most interactions with other characters outside of recruitment conversations, and that only extends to 1-3 extra lines. (Spoilers: In his first romance conversation, Dorn picks a party member and points out their flaws and they get defensive. If you tell Dorn someone is talking behind his back in the second conversation, the companion tries to reason with him. Doesn't work though.)

Dorn also has a fairly long (by BG1 standards) conversation with Viconia later on where she regards him as a sort of "kindred spirit" since they're both spurned and hated by the society they find themselves in.

I did not know that, thanks. :P

MiriCBrown

Jackkel_Dragon said:

Having looked through Dorn's "romance" conversations in modding programs, the thing about them (VERY SPOILERY) is that:

- There are only two that are considered romance talks (use Dorn's romance variable).
- Unless Dorn is killed trying to murder the person the PC claims to be talking behind his back (a skippable part of the second conversation), there is no changes to Dorn's romance variable based on player responses (you can't "break" the romance unless Dorn dies permanently).
- None of Dorn's conversations even hint at a romance in the generally accepted definition of the term. (In some endings of the second conversation, Dorn cuts himself off before saying he can trust you, but this isn't exactly a romantic comment even if he wasn't reluctant to trust people after his last crew ditched him.)

Bottom line is, Dorn's "romance" in BGEE is even more of a prelude than the 3-4 conversation romances with Rasaad and Neera. Part of this is his personality and history, part of it might be that he has 3+ conversations about his history after you finish his questline and those were prioritized.

Now that I'm thinking about it, if the second romance conversation with him is the one where you can blame one of your party memebers for talking smack about him behind his back... which one is the first romance conversation then? o.O

Jackkel_Dragon

@MiriCBrown: As I thought I mentioned in one of my other posts, the first romance conversation (going only by the romance variable tracking, not writer/designer intentions) is the one where Dorn suggests that you can't trust anyone in your party. If you ask him for an example, he'll pick a party member and point out one of their flaws. (He has a few great lines here... like "The miniature thief? You even have to ask?" for Alora and "Need I say more?" after Tiax does a little rant.)

MiriCBrown

It probably just didn't click in my head, my meds make it difficult for me sometimes, so both conversations that you do have to rest for, how convientent, have those variables. Lol I bet he does have some good comments about some of the others. >:P I'm so mean for enjoying the thought. XD But thanks for putting up with my little mini rants and annoying questions, everyone was helpful and quiet nice and chatty, I just stay on the computer all the time since I became a housewife so it's kinda nice talking to people again even if it's just over a computer.

Iecerint

Does this mean that Dorn is basically ninjamancing 100% of players?

Jackkel_Dragon

Iecerint said:

Does this mean that Dorn is basically ninjamancing 100% of players?

Hey, at least he keeps it a secret. Neera rubs it in your face with romance journal entries

until romance conversation 3, where even innocent-sounding responses can piss her off.

If my male character wasn't specifically made to romance Neera, I'd be upset. Dorn? He's sneaky. If he had backstab damage, no one would even know he ninjamanced them. :P

Iecerint

Oh, I'm fine with being ninjamanced by Dorn, but it might confuse some players in BGII who have the romance flagged (if that even ends up mattering).

Eudaemonium

Darrylson said:

Jackkel_Dragon said:

It is rather strange that the new companions don't get much in the way of banters with other characters... Dorn actually seems to have the most interactions with other characters outside of recruitment conversations, and that only extends to 1-3 extra lines. (Spoilers: In his first romance conversation, Dorn picks a party member and points out their flaws and they get defensive. If you tell Dorn someone is talking behind his back in the second conversation, the companion tries to reason with him. Doesn't work though.)

Dorn also has a fairly long (by BG1 standards) conversation with Viconia later on where she regards him as a sort of "kindred spirit" since they're both spurned and hated by the society they find themselves in.

Just to add a bit to this, there are a few other interactions that I've heard of:

If Edwin is in your team during the conversation with Viconia, he will join in the conversation (or he might join in during another one, but there is definitely a three-way talk between them.

When you complete Dorn's roaring rampage of revenge, if Kagain is in your team then the dwarf will offer Dorn a job if he feels like he has nothing to do.

I've also heard of, but not witnessed, a conversation where Shar-Teel challenges Dorn to a duel, but Dorn declines.

There might be others, depending on party makeup.

MiriCBrown

lol Ninjamanced, that's a pretty good term for that. And I've always wondered that, so it seems like he has more interaction with evil aligned characters, but no confrontations with good aligned characters, how odd. You'd think people of that alignment would throw in their two cents on adding a lawful evil, blackguard, half orc to your party who is more or less in a small way tempting you to join the darkside without the cookies. And I take it that Neera feels that you're viewing her as a sort of object and not a person, or does she just not take compliments well? I normally just boot her out of my party the second she joins.

Jalily

MiriCBrown said:

And I've always wondered that, so it seems like he has more interaction with evil aligned characters, but no confrontations with good aligned characters, how odd. You'd think people of that alignment would throw in their two cents on adding a lawful evil, blackguard, half orc to your party who is more or less in a small way tempting you to join the darkside without the cookies.

Yeslick and Ajantis will leave if you recruit Dorn while they are in the party. However, this interaction is bugged—you can immediately accept Dorn back, and they won't complain. They also won't speak up if you recruit Dorn first.

Eudaemonium

Jalily said:

MiriCBrown said:

And I've always wondered that, so it seems like he has more interaction with evil aligned characters, but no confrontations with good aligned characters, how odd. You'd think people of that alignment would throw in their two cents on adding a lawful evil, blackguard, half orc to your party who is more or less in a small way tempting you to join the darkside without the cookies.

Yeslick and Ajantis will leave if you recruit Dorn while they are in the party. However, this interaction is bugged—you can immediately accept Dorn back, and they won't complain. They also won't speak up if you recruit Dorn first.

Well this makes sense, but seriously

who the heck has Yeslick by the time you recruit Dorn? He's at the end of like, Chapter 4

MiriCBrown

Jalily said:

MiriCBrown said:

And I've always wondered that, so it seems like he has more interaction with evil aligned characters, but no confrontations with good aligned characters, how odd. You'd think people of that alignment would throw in their two cents on adding a lawful evil, blackguard, half orc to your party who is more or less in a small way tempting you to join the darkside without the cookies.

Yeslick and Ajantis will leave if you recruit Dorn while they are in the party. However, this interaction is bugged—you can immediately accept Dorn back, and they won't complain. They also won't speak up if you recruit Dorn first.

Well that is something but you'd still think more people would walkout or tell him to hit the road or something along those lines, that's only two out of how many character's of a good alignment? Still it's pretty nice to see the cause and effects of traveling with him.

KidCarnival

Eudaemonium said:

Well this makes sense, but seriously

who the heck has Yeslick by the time you recruit Dorn? He's at the end of like, Chapter 4

I like that there are extra dialogues for rare cases. You'd usually also have Neera before Edwin, and he has more dialogue if you recruit Neera with him in the party. I'm guessing there's also a NPC with extra dialogue for Rasaad.

Eudaemonium

Viconia has some. Whether anyone else does is unknown to me at this time.

Darrylson

Imoen told me that she thought Dorn was "creepy" one time. Only the once, despite the fact that she's always been with me whenever I've recruited him in the past.

Iecerint

Darrylson said:

Imoen told me that she thought Dorn was "creepy" one time. Only the once, despite the fact that she's always been with me whenever I've recruited him in the past.

Maybe Imoen assumed the best about Dorn up-front? This seem in-character to me tbh.

MiriCBrown

Iecerint said:

Darrylson said:

Imoen told me that she thought Dorn was "creepy" one time. Only the once, despite the fact that she's always been with me whenever I've recruited him in the past.

Maybe Imoen assumed the best about Dorn up-front? This seem in-character to me tbh.

Imoen is suppose to be very childish, and with that, naive, so her assuming the best of everyone, even your main character after years of knowing you is very likly as well. But it also sounds kinda like a random thing that will occur when crossing over whatever triggers these small things in the past, Imoen has yet to say anything about Dorn aside from the usual "mutton mongering riff raff" when I've recruited him.

Sylph

When I recruited Dorn, Imoen said something along the lines of having 'a bad feeling about this guy.' Which is understandable, considering he's pretty much a hulking, murderously evil half-orc that probably radiates evil :P

Although that makes me wonder... there's an extra dialog option when you recruit Dorn if you're Int score is high enough where charname can basically pin him as a Blackguard right away... is Imoen's Int score high enough to warrant that she'd figure it out as well?

Luigirules

Dorn is silly.

He accused me of talking to much, when in my current playthrough, my rep's been at 1 pretty much the entire time. Because I've been slaughtering almost everyone I come across.

And then he said I couldn't trust Xzar! As if...

Jalily

Sylph said:

When I recruited Dorn, Imoen said something along the lines of having 'a bad feeling about this guy.' Which is understandable, considering he's pretty much a hulking, murderously evil half-orc that probably radiates evil :P

Although that makes me wonder... there's an extra dialog option when you recruit Dorn if you're Int score is high enough where charname can basically pin him as a Blackguard right away... is Imoen's Int score high enough to warrant that she'd figure it out as well?

Yes. 16 Int is the threshold.

Luigirules

Actually, that reminds me.

When Dorn says you can't trust Xzar, the line provided for our frightfully fruity wizard includes the word "crap".

It seems really out of place. "Crap" seems like a much too contemporary word to be used in BG. I mean, can anyone recall ever seeing it in the game at all before?

Jalily

It's used seven times in the original. My favorite is Charname's response to Safana: "Nope, we're not falling for that lady in distress crap."