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Buff Blades

WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
With the fixing of bugs like Ring of Free Action+Defensive Spin and Improved Haste+Offensive Spin there is very little way to see a Blade as even remotely comparable to a Fighter/Mage anymore.

I'm well aware that the game isn't supposed to be balanced but Blade was appealing to most for its unique fighting qualities that were worthwhile in comparison to other options. As it stands once Improved Haste is available it probably isn't even worthwhile ever actually using Offensive Spin (4 APR with max damage and +2 att/dam is maybe less damage than 6 APR).

Options might be something like:
15th: Improved Offensive Spin: same as Offensive Spin but doubles APR instead.
13th: Improved Defensive Spin: same as Defensive Spin but with 50% movement penalty instead.
Epic Offensive Spin (HLA): same as Offensive Spin but gets APR close to max instead.
Epic Defensive Spin (HLA): same as Defensive Spin but ... something epic?

Or fixing with OP gear or something.

Comments

  • IecerintIecerint Member Posts: 431
    edited April 2013
    I don't know much about it, but it does seem a little silly if a perk of the Blade class is totally obviated by a spell.

    I guess Blade does get Lore bonuses, though, so at least there's that?

    EDIT: I guess some other classes probably face similar circumstances, too....
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited April 2013
    Well, offensive spin does maximize damage... So it is like kai only it lasts much longer and gives and extra +2 to hit/damage and an extra APR and can't be stacked with improved haste. It is a pretty good buff already...
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    Tresset said:

    Well, offensive spin does maximize damage...

    Yes. So, if you are using scimitars you get 8 weapon damage instead of 1d8 which is a difference of 3.5 on average. So, when using offensive spin you're doing +5.5 damage/hit.

    Iirc, it's 4 attacks/round for Offensive Spin and 6 for Improved Haste.
    4*5.5=22 bonus damage

    Is 22 bonus damage likely to be more damage than what is granted by 2 additional attacks? Unlikely.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Well, yeah... but did you factor in the extra attack from spin as well? I don't know... I'm just saying offensive spin is already a pretty potent buff. How it relates to improved haste though... hmm... You will have more Ospins than imp hastes in the long run so maybe that makes it better? Sure the buff may or may not be as good but they are more plentiful too...
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Just thinking aloud here. I don't agree/disagree... yet.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    @Tresset 1 mainhand+1 offhand attack as base. +1 mainhand from Belm/Kundane (used in offhand due) gives total of 3 APR. With Offensive Spin it goes up to 4 APR and a total of 22 bonus damage.

    3 APR with Improved Haste goes to 6 APR. If you do more than 11 damage/hit then Improved Haste will be better.

    Regarding long term; Improved Haste lasts 3 rounds+1 round/level or 84 seconds when you first get it on a level 11 mage. When a bard first gets it at level 16 it will last 94 seconds. By level 20 you can cast it up to 3 times/day which is approaching 5 minutes of improved haste gore.

    Importantly, these observations give very little reason to play a blade in the first place. A vanilla bard, skald or jester all become quite competitive in damage terms as soon as improved haste becomes available.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Except that the other bard kits can not have more than one point in 2 weapon so that means their thac0 would mostly suck with all those attacks.

    Alright, you are starting to win me over but to basically make Ospin boost APR as much as imp haste seems a bit overkill. Since bards never get more than base 1 APR (why?) I think it would be far more feasible for the proposed imp Ospin to simply add 2 APR rather than 1 and it would be much less OP that way. Epic O/Dspin would be impossible as it would likely have to be offered to all bard kits (I know of no kit specific restrictions on HLA's) and would probably be too much anyway. I do kind of like the sound of imp Dspin though. Of course Dspin stacks with imp haste so that may be a bit too nasty. Maybe toss in some save bonuses or other ways of magic defense instead?
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    This is really a big ask though... if the devs start messing with kits willy-nilly it could imbalance the game (from what I understand they worry about this a lot). I somewhat doubt that they will do anything like this...
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    @Tresset well they effectively did mess around with the kit willy nilly by fixing long standing bugs which were close to being accepted as "features".

    I'm suggesting double APR (which only increases APR from 4 to 6 instead of your suggested 4 to 5) as it should give an extra offhand attack (bringing the total to 4 mainhand and 2 offhand) which isn't as powerful as 5 mainhand/1 offhand.

    A simpler approach to HLA's would be to replace improved bard song with whirlwind attack just for Blades. This is a feature of a few mods which fits the kit nicely by giving a nice perk and removing the ability to overcome the only significant disadvantage of the kit.

    Giving 50% movement penalty on an Improved Defensive Spin just restores the ability to its previous function. Perhaps being immune to (improved) haste while using Defensive Spin would be appropriate though.
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  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064

    Unnecessary. Blades are fine. If you're all about DPS, play a F/M or kensai->mage or something. If you want to play a blade, go ahead... and the game will be perfectly playable.

    IMHO the kit's not broken, so it doesn't need to be fixed.

    It wasn't exactly broken before when Improved Haste could be combined with Offensive Spin and Free Action with Defensive Spin but it got fixed anyway.

    Those were qualities that made the kit interesting to play for someone who wanted to play a bard that could fight well ... and what other reason is there to play a blade?
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Wowo said:

    Unnecessary. Blades are fine. If you're all about DPS, play a F/M or kensai->mage or something. If you want to play a blade, go ahead... and the game will be perfectly playable.

    IMHO the kit's not broken, so it doesn't need to be fixed.

    It wasn't exactly broken before when Improved Haste could be combined with Offensive Spin and Free Action with Defensive Spin but it got fixed anyway.

    Those were qualities that made the kit interesting to play for someone who wanted to play a bard that could fight well ... and what other reason is there to play a blade?
    Roleplaying reasons? Challenge reasons? Not everyone wants to be superman every game. I don't know who that person is but he or she is out there.
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  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    This title could also have been a request for a romance with Haer D'alis
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    ajwz said:

    This title could also have been a request for a romance with Haer D'alis

    Blades in the buff?
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Bhaaldog said:

    What about supergirl...

    Some guys and girls like to be supergirl too. You'd never say anything if you had to gender qualify everything you said haha.

    There are times where he or she likes to play RPGs where he or she can be superman or supergirl. Sometimes he or she likes a challenge or to roleplay as he or she sees fit as a lesser being or a flawed hero or just more of a challenge. ;)

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  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    TJ_Hooker said:

    ajwz said:

    This title could also have been a request for a romance with Haer D'alis

    Blades in the buff?
    Watch them get shafted.
  • IecerintIecerint Member Posts: 431
    This thread made me significantly more interested in the abandoned Haer'Dalis romance option. ^^~
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Icerint - you want to give a Blade the shaft?
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  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited April 2013

    Wowo said:

    Unnecessary. Blades are fine. If you're all about DPS, play a F/M or kensai->mage or something. If you want to play a blade, go ahead... and the game will be perfectly playable.

    IMHO the kit's not broken, so it doesn't need to be fixed.

    It wasn't exactly broken before when Improved Haste could be combined with Offensive Spin and Free Action with Defensive Spin but it got fixed anyway.

    Those were qualities that made the kit interesting to play for someone who wanted to play a bard that could fight well ... and what other reason is there to play a blade?
    Roleplaying reasons? Challenge reasons? Not everyone wants to be superman every game. I don't know who that person is but he or she is out there.
    I prefer Blades to fighter/mages, I prefer the "Thief" HLAs they get (including the awesome UAI, Enhanced Bard Song and Spike Traps) and they have the best Stronghold quest in BG2. They also get to use all the fun Bard-specific magic items in BG2 that are otherwise usually not used (there's even on Bard-specific item in BGEE). Pickpockets and Lore can also be useful.

    They're not the most powerful class, but are powerful enough and *fun*, which is more important in my book. Also they make me think of Kvothe in Patrick Rothuss' great "Name of the Wind" series of books...
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Nifft said:

    @Icerint - you want to give a Blade the shaft?

    Blade + The Shaft = The Knife

  • secretmantrasecretmantra Member Posts: 259
    @Oxford_Guy

    Kvothe rocks.
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    KVoooOOOooooTHE!
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