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Blade vs. Kenthief - which is more fun for a full saga playthrough?

Was going to post this in Help for New Players, but I guess that doesn't really fit - I originally played BG when it first came out but was a bit too young to really process the rules and tactics needed to get the most out of it (I was 12 and used to much easier games). But I loved the story and just CLUA consoled my way through the hard parts.

Looking to do a proper, legit playthrough this time (almost finished with a Kensai run in BG:EE). I understand that the Kensai/Thief is one of the more powerful builds, but Blade looks really fun. How do they hold up/compare from beginning to endgame?

I'm leaning toward the Kenthief, but I plan on a full-party run and don't want to spend half of SoA nerfed. Any tips?
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited April 2013
    I find a single class Kensai is about the most fun class ever, despite their limited repertoire. Kensief is ok...but a F/T multi is just plain better, you don't have to deal with down time, and your overall backstab damage is only slightly behind the K/T. A F/T multi would be better for your full party run (though hit/fade requires more micromanagement so it could get overwhelming or underused with a large party).

    Blades aren't even really a comparison as they have completely different play styles. A blade is an inferior fighter/mage that can pickpocket...when you get to Epic levels they can get a few extra abilities to somewhat compensate for lack of higher level spells...but since they're spell progression is significantly less then it should be (supposed to get casting up to 8th level, as in Icewind Dale), they're pretty much inferior to any combination, unless you just REALLY hate downtime (and they level pretty quick, so Animate Dead becomes awesome quite a bit faster)...that's the only advantage really (Might work for you since they require pretty much no thought when making, aside of decent starting stats, though they're pretty crappy during BG1, compared to other classes...that lack of natural attacks hurts (especially with their horrible thac0)..but once you can toss them a pair of melee speed weapons in SoA, they can be quite fun).
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    edited April 2013
    I love Blades. I would say that a Kenthief is considerably better powerwise (even though F/T is better), but Blades are incredibly versatile and have a lot more things to play with.
  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    I say Blade, because they get spells and a gorgeous stronghold in BG2.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited April 2013
    Blade is more fun, more versatile, levels quickly, great stronghold in BG2, gets HLAs earlier (one of the downsides about dual-classing late) and you don't have to play all of BGEE and some of SOA as just an unarmoured Kensai. A Kensai>Thief will be more powerful the further you get into SOA, but you asked which one would be more fun...

    Blades also get to use all the fun Bard-specific magic items, there is only one in BGEE, but lots more in BG2. They also get the Enhanced Bard Song and Magic Flute HLAs, which are interesting.
  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831
    F/T multiclass instead.... sure, Kensai/Thief is powerful, but dual-classing is just annoying while waiting for the first class to reactivate. Or just play a Blade, if you don't mind a weaker character that likes to sing.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I agree with others, the multiclass f/t is better. Unless you are really patient and stick with kensai until your near the tob cap, i really didnt notice much of an edge for the kensai thief... and once i had a few hla, multi was vastly better at combat, and since the multi was a halfer, he also was a better thief.

    If you want to dc in a way that isnt at a ridiculously high level, i suggest just going berserker. Get your extra half an aprat level 7 i think, then dc out. The cult of the dc kensai started in soa, ie before tob... imho, hla for a fighter pay out more than kensai boosts do. Heck, do you really think +4 to hit and damage is gonna offset an enemy with hardiness? But that said, the comp plays stupidish in core, so imp haste is not likely to get dispelled, unless your overzealous inquisitor does it for you accidently. Imo, gww is STILL better, but imp haste on a kensai dc can work.

    Pure kensai gets kinda crazy in tob... gww when youve got that damage bonus is kinda bowel-loosening.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2013
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  • GrakkelGrakkel Member Posts: 55
    I haven't played through BG2, but I can say that I'm really enjoying my BG:EE playthrough as a bard so far. With good stats, and dual-wielding a pair of scimitars "borrowed" from Drizzt, my Blade is pretty BA. Once he picks up elven chain and gets his third pip in two weapon fighting, he'll be even better. Right now he has two uses of offensive whirlwind per day, and typically there isn't more than two fights per map worth using whirlwind on, so it works out fine. Chunking critters for 30 damage or so with an attack is great fun for all.
  • GrakkelGrakkel Member Posts: 55
    Oh, and what I'm really looking forward to in BG2 is offensive whirlwind + draw upon holy might + tenser's transformation + time trap. That's the combo that's going to be smooshtastically fun!
  • ZanianZanian Member Posts: 332
    My last 2 playthroughs of the saga were actually with a blade, followed by a kensai/thief. I found blade more fun. The kensai/thief was a solo-run though ('Got through all of BG as a pure kensai on core... which was... interesting), so the "fun" was more in the challenge.
    Blades are great in parties, and potentially stronger/more useful than a kensai/thief in that regard.
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  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Yeah, agreed, nifty idea kensai to cleric. In bgee, can you dual wield staff maced yet? There are 2 in bg2, i made edwin a fool wielder (ha!) and giggled as the arrogant 18 int super mage idiotically flailed away. Then i laughed my ass off when i realized that with his already abysmal thac0, he already needed an excellent role vs anything that matters... so supergenius outwitted me and enjoyed the last laugh.

    Actually, i need to work out my prof total, see how many id need to manage my idea... profs stack now in dc, but thats 1 point, so youd need 7 to have 4 staff, 2 twf, 1 thf. Heck, thats not too terrible! What level to dual at though, for the bonuses; imo lvl 15, in soa! You can get 2 staff maces in bg2, and use staff of striking in bg1, and staff of ram last. Level 15 gives 9 pips, or 2 spares. Maybe dual clubs in bg?
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Ooh, wildly awful idea for tob... assassin 24 (uai... weapons? Otherwise 21 for bs) dc to cleric! Kinda viablish. If you stand on your head, and close the 1 eye.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    How about dualing a shadowdancer (once it's fixed) to a fighter @ level 9? I haven't seen much discussion on shadow dancer duals here on the forums, but it seems like a good way to to create a character who can land some backstabs while still being able to hold his own when a full melee breaks loose.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    SD->Fighter is great, I've played around with one.
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  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    If you're doing that, pretty sure a Ranger->Cleric or a Ranger/Cleric multiclass would be better. Fighter-types, even Rangers, just don't scale well beyond a certain point (usually lvl 13 or so); clerics on the other hand have some very useful spells at higher levels and will continue to accrue benefits all the way to the end.

    Staying on topic, I'd say "fun" depends on too many variables to be easily decided. Certainly K->T is very powerful, but Blade does have quite some versatility and can do things few others can (such as becoming highly resistant tanks).
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Well, most clerics running into a stealthed ranger that leaves the shadows to gww them are PROBABLY gonna be roast beef. Clerics arent wizards imo... wiz/sorc both go bonkers with 9th level spells, contingencies, and sequencers. Clerics can compete if they have prep time, but yeah, 7 spell levels? No sequencers!? NO CONTINGENCIES?!?!

    With vanilla soa, sure, cleric is better than ranger, hardcore better. Tob? Nah, hla are too awesome for warriors for clerics to compete. Actually, as much as i loved clerics in soa, tob made them healbots and buffdispensers.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Just do Cleric/Ranger multi then, they will get warrior HLAs ;) Not to mention the druid spell repertoire, and there are some VERY good high level druid spells...
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited April 2013
    You're right, I guess "fun" is a bit too broad of a descriptor; here's the kind of experience I like to have:

    1: CHARNAME plays a central role in combat, generally as the main damage dealer (melee or spell) which rules out straight thief, bard (except for blade) and cleric.

    2: It sounds great to be able to sneak into a room and use backstabs/fade to decimate mages etc, but I don't want to be shoehorned into that being my only tactic if I want the PC to be effective. CHARNAME should be equally able to use specialized tactics like this while also holding his own in a major brawl... if it can only be one or the other, I'll choose the latter.

    3: The class shouldn't be overly simple to play (ie sc fighter). I'm not looking for high levels of complexity, but enough to require a somewhat more nuanced experience. I don't mind micro-managing if there's a good yield.

    4: If it's a dual-class, I would like to be able to have my first class reactivated by SoA chapter 3 without having to go solo - playing the majority of the game nerfed just to be very powerful for the endgame kind of conflicts with (1).

    While I do plan on trying out some of the supporting roles later on, I guess for this playthrough I'd just like CHARNAME to be the big damn hero and feel like it from chapter 1 of SoA to the end of ToB.
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    SD->Fighter is great, I've played around with one.
    At what level did you dual?

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    It was SD 6 -> Ftr 8 due to BGEE XP cap.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Hmmm. For what you're looking for, I'd probably advise a Fighter Dual of some kind. Maybe Fighter to Thief, Mage or Cleric (or Druid), since they all have their functions. Dualing at level 7 (to get skills back in BG1) or at 9 (to get skills back early in BG2). 13 always seems too late for me, despite the extra 1/2 APR. I don't think it's worth the downtime, especially in a full or moderately full party.

    Dualing from Fighter means you can get GM in any weapon style, which is an extra APR and a nice damage and THAC0 bonus, as well as a nice chunk of HP and a good THAC0 boost from the fighter levels. Pick your second class based on what role you want. Mage is good, since it means you can capitalise on the low-level Fighter bonuses and the High-level Mage spells. Cleric and Druid both allow for excellent buffing for close combat (though a Druid dual is *very* hard to roll for, since you need WIS and CHA at 17 to dual).
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Did the rerelease give back uber GM bonus? Boo thinks thats just ducky!
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Boo is a pure Berserker btw.

    He goes for the eyes, so watch out!
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    DreadKhan said:

    Did the rerelease give back uber GM bonus? Boo thinks thats just ducky!

    Yes, and no. At GM you get +1 APR, which is better than default BG2 (+1/2) and worse than the original BG1 and modded BG2 (+3/2 APR).

    From what I have gleaned around these boards, I believe that the BG1 +3/2 APR was based on a misinterpretation of the rules, which added 1 APR at GM. The original game makers interpreted this as 1 APR *on top of* the 1/2 APR at Specialisation, when it was meant to be instead of.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Blade. Great class and makes for decent roleplaying. Kensai/Thief is powergaming, plain and simple.
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