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Would Kivan Fall under this scenario? (contains plot spoilers)

LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
If Kivan deliberately delivers the party into the hands of the bandits in the Wood of Sharp Teeth in order to (try to) get at Tazok, is that a breach of his ethos as a Ranger to always protect innocent travelers? Should he Fall for that?

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  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Sacrificing others towards any goal is not a "good" behaviour. That would make him either neutral or evil, therefore he would fall for that.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited April 2013
    Btw, my topic question is more general than the scenario I'm posting below. This is just one possible way it could happen:

    In the particular case I'm thinking of (the roleplay-heavy game I'm chronicling in another thread), Jaheira has essentially argued to Kivan that it truly is to the party's benefit to try to kill Tazok before he kills them. And she does wholeheartedly believe that, actually. But Jaheira is also driven by her agenda as a Harper to gather as much information about the operation as she can, especially given that there is reason to believe the Zhents are behind it (Zhents and Harpers being mortal enemies). She is not acting as party leader, but as the PC's sworn protector.*

    By the same token, the protagonist/party leader had wished to flee to Baldur's Gate. (He has no way of knowing that they won't be allowed into the city.) In a deal worked out with Jaheira while the PC slept, Kivan agreed to trick the PC by telling him that he is keeping them safer by traveling through the woods (he being a Ranger) than if they were to travel the main road. Which is theoretically true. A Ranger certainly could do that. But not his real reason for taking them into the Wood of Sharp Teeth. He is really after Tazok.

    Jaheira does believe she is helping keep the PC alive by at least gaining as much information as they can about Tazok. And if they can kill Tazok in the bargain as Kivan wishes, then so much the better.

    Unbeknownst to the PC, Jaheira made a deal with Kivan that he may hunt for Tazok with their aid, under the pretense of avoiding the main road. She also shared with Kivan that they suspect Tazok to likely be headquartered in the Wood of Sharp Teeth (that per what Elminster had advised them, in combination with the game';s other clues).

    But in all events, she basically manipulated Kivan into doing this by tapping into his burning quest for revenge.

    Personally, I think it is Fall-worthy.



    * As TN I'm really not sure how Jaheira should try to balance her larger responsibilities as a Harper versus protecting the PC. She is certainly not sworn to blind obedience to the PC, though. (I don't think there was ever a formal pledge to Gorion by J. & K. to protect his ward, but it is implied in spirit. Although neither J. or K. is Lawful however, even if they had sworn an oath.)
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited April 2013
    Could I edit Kivan to Fallen Ranger status with EEKeeper? Just remove his stealth and Charm Animal abilities? It's been a long time since I was into this stuff... Does a Fallen Ranger basically remain a Ranger except without any special powers?
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    What you are suggesting isn't fall worthy.

    Kivan isn't following the PC, he is following the party. He may think that since Jaheira has sworn to protect the PC, it would be her responsibility to keep you safe and as long as she is aware of his plans (in fact it was her plan) he isn't concerned that some stuck up kid wants to run and hide while the area is in danger.

    Fall worthy would be more like plotting against you to deliver you to the bandit camp, without anyone's knowledge, for a trade between you and Tazok.

    And no, Fallen Rangers are like Fighters without any fighter benefits.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    I do understand the argument that the act may not lead to a Fall. But if he were to Fall, his class would change to Fighter then? That's how I'm vaguely remembering it.
  • PawnSlayerPawnSlayer Member Posts: 295
    Lemernis said:

    I do understand the argument that the act may not lead to a Fall. But if he were to Fall, his class would change to Fighter then? That's how I'm vaguely remembering it.

    Functionally, Fallen Ranger/Paladin is a fighter without the benefits of being able to put 5 pips in any slot, yes.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Bhaaldog said:

    Kivan is Chaotic Good which suggests that their actions are determined by their own view of what is good.

    But before any view of what is good, there must be a source. And the source of goodness isn't sacrificing others. If he does it because he really wants revenge , that would make him neutral.
    deltago said:



    Fall worthy would be more like plotting against you to deliver you to the bandit camp, without anyone's knowledge, for a trade between you and Tazok.

    If you had a high reputation, that would be surely an evil act.


    Kivan is a good guy, and his grudge is against Tazok and the other bandits. I would expect Kagain or Edwin to do that, though...
  • SharnSharn Member Posts: 188
    edited April 2013
    The ends justifying the means by its very definition is an evil act, the person is knowingly doing something evil in the hopes that the act will amount to a greater good. Chaotic good characters don't get to ignore what is good, the disagreements with the rest of society in the definition often fall more into rules societies follow that have nothing to do with right and wrong. Chaotic good characters don't believe in strict order like lawful good does, a character who defines each decision by what they believe is right, or at least right for them, whether or not others view it as good or evil would be chaotic neutral.

    People lose sight of what is good and evil all the time in the real world because no one can truly be classified as purely good, we all make decisions in our lives that we will regret no matter how altruistic we try to be. They use examples such as good and evil are just concepts and not real, or the ends justify the means to help them sleep better at night, or try to explain how morality isn't real because its a human creation.

    Humans create a lot of things, they can be real, and they don't have to be tangible solid objects to be defined as real. A good analogy when someone says morality isn't real, that its just made up by humans and can be ignored would be to counter that language is also an intangible human creation that has very real and binding effects on a population, and like morality, languages can change as time passes, but everyone who speaks the language for the most part changes together. Language and morality are two intangible human creations that are absolutely necessary for us to coexist with each other.

    The big problem with the alignment system though is that its a little too strict to be compared to real world morality, and real world morality is a lot more forgiving of breaks of etiquette if those breaks are not harmful to others who are following the rules. Pete the guy who sleeps with absolutely everyone and has or has had every STD under the sun is harmless to everyone but himself and others who are not following societies rules, he gets a pass, and a few jokes made at his expense, as well as a few envious glances by people who feel trapped by the constraints of society. Susan who pulls a 9mm out of her purse and shoots people in the face whenever she loses her temper is promptly placed in a prison cell however.
    Post edited by Sharn on
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    Lemernis said:

    I do understand the argument that the act may not lead to a Fall. But if he were to Fall, his class would change to Fighter then? That's how I'm vaguely remembering it.

    If ranger falls his class changes to fallen ranger, which is basically a special ranger kit (coded as CLABRN05), which gets abilities that disable buttons "cast spell" and "stealth".
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    In the case of my game, Kivan certainly isn't acting evilly in the sense that he wishes harm upon innocents. It is ultimately selfish, though.

    Kivan knows how powerful Tazok is, even just by himself. Plus Tazok is surrounded by an army of bandits. Kivan requires a party of adventurers to assist him in completing his own personal vendetta to kill Tazok. The moral dilemma presented to Kivan here, however, is that two party members (PC and Imoen) do not wish to take on that danger. However the party member that Kivan respects most (Jaheira) advises that Tazok will simply keep sending assassins to kill them even if they flee. This has allowed Kivan to rationalize to himself that the best way to protect the party is to kill Tazok.

    So I think it's fair to say that what Kivan does here is at least consistent with his CG alignment. I think the question goes more to what it means to be a Ranger.

    The Complete Ranger's Handbook (2nd ed. AD&D) does say that "most Rangers," regardless of Chaotic, Neutral, or Lawful alignment, have a very firm moral compass: they behave honestly, believe in altruism, and selfishness is antithetical to being a Ranger. However the manual also describes in the Roleplaying section for Rangers an "Obsessed" type, and even alludes to revenge as a driving and all-consuming motive. It says of the Obsessed Ranger that he or she places the party's objectives as secondary to his own, but typically matures out of it.

    I think that may be enough to avoid a Fall here...
  • SharnSharn Member Posts: 188
    I may have to play a game with Kivan so I can comment on his exact behavior, because I do not know the specifics of how this quest plays out with him in the party.
  • It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    Sharn said:

    I may have to play a game with Kivan so I can comment on his exact behavior, because I do not know the specifics of how this quest plays out with him in the party.

    IIRC nothing happens when you meet Tazok with Kivan in the group which is true for most companions with ties to other game NPCs - I suspect they originally planned to do something but the content was cut/never done


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