You ignored his first response. He is critiquing the OPs slander at the developers not working to a higher bar. He has every right to say how many games have you written when a person is attempting to set the bar higher without knowing what they are talking about. It was set pretty high (and still is set pretty high) if you know how this engine works.
Exactly my point - "if you know how the engine works". That knowledge isn't compulsory for anyone who buys the game; you don't have to know the entire process Beamdog went through in order to play BG:EE. To use the same analogy again, I can have and express an opinion on a movie even if I'm not completely aware of every cinematic technique and CGI program that was used in its creation - that's just not relevant to me as a member of the audience. If I already have that knowledge, I can of course make a more detailed analysis, but getting hung up on the OP's choice of words seems to me a rather willful deflection.
It is like going to NASA and saying "why the hell haven't you put a person on Mars yet? It is the closest planet to us, you really need to set your bar higher. And why the hell did you let that space shuttle crash, can't you morons do anything right? You all should be fired! I am moving to Russia, where they know how do space programs properly."
If NASA were to launch the same shuttle seven times, and something would go wrong each time, there would be room for criticism. Of course, this metaphor is a stretch - even the smallest malfunction can result in catastrophe with NASA, whereas BG:EE is currently playable regardless of its problems.
New content bugs, especially with this engine, are bound to happen. They are not going to catch all of them before release. If you can not grasp this simple concept then. . . I don't know. There is no hope for you in understanding.
That would be a perfectly justified response except for the fact that we're four months post-release, and further patches have apparently been synchronized to platform releases (which means that, say, the Shadowdancer class or Firebead won't be fixed until the game comes out on Android, whenever that may be.)
And how many bugs that cause "crashes/lockups" are still in the game? Vague comments like "the number of bugs" is silly and unwarranted. Give a descriptive bug that is causing issues and they will address it in the proper forum. But read the paragraph above this again before you do.
Again, you're assigning a degree of knowledge to the player that they're simply not required to have - not every person who buys the game is obligated to fill out bug reports every time something happens. A more likely response will be to get frustrated with the game, and that's a legitimate reaction when you buy something that doesn't quite work the way it should.
And if you haven't noticed, Overhaul has hired some new programmers (with the money that they obtained through the release of this game) to help with the bugs and future patches. And they didn't hire schmucks. They hired the people that have been working on this engine for years and know the ins and outs of it.
Good for them. And if that bears fruit in BG2:EE, more power to them. This does not make them immune to criticism pertaining to how things are right now.
To me, that is dedication. And everyone is human, even the developers of this game. PR may not be his strong point, but he can handle so called "criticism" anyway he likes.
Of course he can. Which isn't to say that there aren't still right and wrong ways to do so.
With regards to how low we set the bar, how many video games have you developed? How many lines of someone else code have you worked with?
Yes, I'm sorry that you are employed and have a job! So sorry! I think this game is fantastic but that's irrelevant. The sob story does not enhance your ethos, for real.
I think whether or not the whole "how much do you know about X?"/"let's see you make a better X" line of response is a valid argument depends on the exact nature of the original complaint.
If the original complaint was "I don't like X"/"X is of poor quality" (for whatever reason), I don't think the above argument is valid, because otherwise 99% of people would never be allowed to complain about books, movies, games, or anything really.
If the original complaint was "I don't like X, you guys are doing a crappy job/not trying hard enough", then the above argument may be valid, because there's no way that someone would be able to know how much time and effort went into a process if they have no idea how that process works.
If NASA were to launch the same shuttle seven times, and something would go wrong each time, there would be room for criticism. Of course, this metaphor is a stretch - even the smallest malfunction can result in catastrophe with NASA, whereas BG:EE is currently playable regardless of its problems.
Lets start with this. It is more like going to NASA with Space Shuttle Columbia and asking them to land on Mars with it and failing seven times, but each time getting closer to the goal.
The OP was criticizing not the game, but how low they set their standards for releasing the game. That is what Trent was being objectionable about. Standards are derived from time and resources available. If you do not know what is available or how much time there is, then you really shouldn't be dictating how high a bar should be set.
That would be a perfectly justified response except for the fact that we're four months post-release, and further patches have apparently been synchronized to platform releases (which means that, say, the Shadowdancer class or Firebead won't be fixed until the game comes out on Android, whenever that may be.)
I believe, I really don't know, but I am assuming, one of the reasons why the last patch took so long to release occurred because they had to deal with the Steam fiasco. They really couldn't offer a patch and have people using the Steam version having two patches old. I assume this because as soon as Steam was patched up, the next patch was ready to go a week or two later. I also think having the game released on Steam is going to slow down their patching as they have to wait for a third party to release that patch, and said third party may get annoyed of having to offer a patch every 3 weeks.
There is already a fix for the Firebead patch available if it annoys you.
I also think they released Shadow dancer early because it was already leaked and people would of been questioning why it wasn't released with the others. It is still playable for those who want to play it, however, if you want a bug free experience, feel free to wait on playing it until the next patch and enjoy the rest of the new content.
Again, you're assigning a degree of knowledge to the player that they're simply not required to have - not every person who buys the game is obligated to fill out bug reports every time something happens. A more likely response will be to get frustrated with the game, and that's a legitimate reaction when you buy something that doesn't quite work the way it should.
Actually, the degree I am asking for is what bugs, to you're knowledge are plaguing the game. You mentioned the two most commonly known ones? Is that it? A whole two bugs, one easily fixed by the end user equates the symatics of "the number of bugs?" A whole two, and two that are neither lockup/freeze nor negates the play ability of the game.
And if you haven't noticed, Overhaul has hired some new programmers (with the money that they obtained through the release of this game) to help with the bugs and future patches. And they didn't hire schmucks. They hired the people that have been working on this engine for years and know the ins and outs of it.
Good for them. And if that bears fruit in BG2:EE, more power to them. This does not make them immune to criticism pertaining to how things are right now.
Sure it does. It is them saying we are learning from our mistakes and we are taking every step possible to fix them. With that; polite criticism is fine. Uneducated slander is not. There is a difference between the two.
I'm going to close this thread, as there are plenty of other threads about similar things elsewhere on the forums, and the discussion has gotten sufficiently far off from the original topic (Black Pits review? Maybe?) that it won't be missed. If you wish to discuss the game's flaws, feel free to do so--but perhaps this would be a good time to remind everyone about the site's rules, and in particular the one about "being excellent to each other".
Comments
If the original complaint was "I don't like X"/"X is of poor quality" (for whatever reason), I don't think the above argument is valid, because otherwise 99% of people would never be allowed to complain about books, movies, games, or anything really.
If the original complaint was "I don't like X, you guys are doing a crappy job/not trying hard enough", then the above argument may be valid, because there's no way that someone would be able to know how much time and effort went into a process if they have no idea how that process works.
The OP was criticizing not the game, but how low they set their standards for releasing the game. That is what Trent was being objectionable about. Standards are derived from time and resources available. If you do not know what is available or how much time there is, then you really shouldn't be dictating how high a bar should be set. I believe, I really don't know, but I am assuming, one of the reasons why the last patch took so long to release occurred because they had to deal with the Steam fiasco. They really couldn't offer a patch and have people using the Steam version having two patches old. I assume this because as soon as Steam was patched up, the next patch was ready to go a week or two later.
I also think having the game released on Steam is going to slow down their patching as they have to wait for a third party to release that patch, and said third party may get annoyed of having to offer a patch every 3 weeks.
There is already a fix for the Firebead patch available if it annoys you.
I also think they released Shadow dancer early because it was already leaked and people would of been questioning why it wasn't released with the others. It is still playable for those who want to play it, however, if you want a bug free experience, feel free to wait on playing it until the next patch and enjoy the rest of the new content. Actually, the degree I am asking for is what bugs, to you're knowledge are plaguing the game. You mentioned the two most commonly known ones? Is that it? A whole two bugs, one easily fixed by the end user equates the symatics of "the number of bugs?" A whole two, and two that are neither lockup/freeze nor negates the play ability of the game. Sure it does. It is them saying we are learning from our mistakes and we are taking every step possible to fix them. With that; polite criticism is fine. Uneducated slander is not. There is a difference between the two.
And yes, I do mean everyone.
Thread closed.